http://www.tabletopgeneral.com/2016/04/05/to-the-death/

One of the most concerning additions to the new Tournament Regulations documents has been the addition of Intentional Draws. Intentional Draws in Armada are a guaranteed 5 point victory with 0 MOV.

Because of the way the Swiss format works, a 5 point draw can essentially guarantee players in the top spots are incapable of being toppled and players below cannot advance into the top positions. At large tournaments, store championships and regional events this can basically freeze good players with a solid chance of competing out of the top spots for two players who can essentially take a two hour break with no risk of losing position. At smaller and mid-sized tournaments, this can be even worse as many players will likely be aware of what the top scores are before agreeing to a draw. When leading into the final round or rounds of a tournament players can be completely frozen out of the top 4 or top 8 regardless of score or overall performance.

This causes numerous problems for players, not only those who may have a fighting chance at cracking the top but also those who will see others leave at the bottom, reducing their chance to get in extra games or move up to positions with a chance at rewards.

I'm asking you, begging you even:

If you see players at the top tables intentionally draw a game to maintain a scoring position either by asking for a draw or playing an intentional draw, do the entire community a favor and immediately report them for unsporting conduct, to the tournament organizer and if that's not acted on then to FFG themselves.

I am confused. You are saying FFG added the ID rule, but you want to report people who ID? Am I missing something?

I am confused. You are saying FFG added the ID rule, but you want to report people who ID? Am I missing something?

He's saying it because ID'ing could be used as a cowardly way to ensure you make a cut, because the RAW is pretty murky on the collusion rules. As he stated in his article, an ID is allowed as long as it isn't colluding. However, an ID directly influences your score, meaning that it should fall under the collusion rules, as both players have to agree to it. If I was a TO, I also wouldn't allow an ID, unless they had a **** good reason why.

I am confused. You are saying FFG added the ID rule, but you want to report people who ID? Am I missing something?

FFG added the ID rule and basically made it impossible to use at the top tables without it being collusion or functioning as if it were collusion.

The only reason a player at the top tables should be accepting a draw is if something is forcing a complete evacuation of the venue and the game cannot continue, or if a complete 10-0 tabling at all tables would not affect the standings.

Geez, I thought that rule was weird. Dunno about you guys, but I am paying to go to a tournament so I can play at least three games back-to-back with good players, not so I can handshake my way to victory.

FFG did not include the ability to ID for it to not be used for the same reason that ability exists in any number of other games.

If 5pts is all each player needs there is absolutely no reason to force them to play that game. All forcing them to play that game is ensure that they both set up thier ships at 0 speed and continually just pass turns.

http://www.tabletopgeneral.com/2016/04/05/to-the-death/

At large tournaments, store championships and regional events this can basically freeze good players with a solid chance of competing out of the top spots for two players who can essentially take a two hour break with no risk of losing position.

Edit: somehow I missed that there was an article linked there. My mistake. I'll withhold judgement until after I've read it.

I just read it ard, you were right the first time IMO.

Would you fault a player for playing a points denial game if it gets him where he needs to be points wise? If both players are going to do that anyway, why not just skip the stupid?

Don't get me wrong, I see your point, and your passion, and I respect it. But I don't really think its a huge deal, and I wouldn't blame a table for doing this, even if I were to be the one who got shut out by it. But if its in both players rational self interest to handshake a draw, I don't really blame them for acting in their own best interests.

In Magic, it is considered colluding and highly illegal. I hope the next update they make to the rules take IDing out.

I've seen players in tournaments set up at opposite ends of the deployment zones, and move speed 1 towards each other, no combat till round 6.

Can't say I was happy watching them do it, nor do I think it's very sporting, but there is nothing saying in a competition you have to risk a loss, when all you need is 5 points.

In Magic, it is considered colluding and highly illegal. I hope the next update they make to the rules take IDing out.

To quote mtg tournament rules:

"2.4 Conceding or Intentionally Drawing Games or Matches

If a game or match is not completed, players may concede or mutually agree to a draw in that game or match. A

match is considered complete once the result slip is filled out or, if match slips are not being used, a player leaves

the table after game play is finished. Until that point, either player may concede to or draw with the other, though

if the conceding player won a game in the match, the match must be reported as 2-1. Intentional draws are always

reported as 0-0-3."

Edit: pdf herehttp://wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/mtg_mtr_8apr16_ena.pdf

I think its really low and unsporting personally. I see the points both sides of the argument, but I want to play games. Its not about winning (yes it is nice) but when winning is more important than actually playing I think you need to take a step back and have a word with yourself.

Its plastic table top spaceships at the end of the day.

I wont be taking no draws

In any professional system, intentionally paying to a draw or loss for purposes of manipulating the scoring system is typically considered illegal and in many sports will earn severe penalties.

In a recent California X-Wing champ I was made aware that nearly the entire top eight ID'd their last games, locking out any chance of other players advancing.

I just read it ard, you were right the first time IMO.

Would you fault a player for playing a points denial game if it gets him where he needs to be points wise? If both players are going to do that anyway, why not just skip the stupid?

Don't get me wrong, I see your point, and your passion, and I respect it. But I don't really think its a huge deal, and I wouldn't blame a table for doing this, even if I were to be the one who got shut out by it. But if its in both players rational self interest to handshake a draw, I don't really blame them for acting in their own best interests.

This effectively invalidates the entire final round, pre-cut, out of most large events. That's a huge deal in things like revivals where people may be traveling hundreds of miles to attend.

In Magic, it is considered colluding and highly illegal. I hope the next update they make to the rules take IDing out.

actually it's perfectly legal in mtg and quite common

To quote mtg tournament rules:

"2.4 Conceding or Intentionally Drawing Games or Matches

If a game or match is not completed, players may concede or mutually agree to a draw in that game or match. A

match is considered complete once the result slip is filled out or, if match slips are not being used, a player leaves

the table after game play is finished. Until that point, either player may concede to or draw with the other, though

if the conceding player won a game in the match, the match must be reported as 2-1. Intentional draws are always

reported as 0-0-3."

Edit: pdf herehttp://wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/mtg_mtr_8apr16_ena.pdf

Seriously? Okay. Maybe I'm wrong. Last I played though, it was completely discouraged.

NO NO NO NO WAIT:

This declares ONLY if a match is not completed.

You may not offer a draw or concession for any reward or incentive, such as a drawn score.

"If a game or match is not completed, players may concede or mutually agree to a draw in that game or match. A match is considered complete once the result slip is filled out or, if match slips are not being used, a player leaves the table after game play is finished. Until that point, either player may concede to or draw with the other, though if the conceding player won a game in the match, the match must be reported as 2-1. Intentional draws where no games were played are always reported as 0-0-3.

Sorry, but one thing that is sure to garner a derisive response from me is some one exhorting me to "Take the Pledge!"

In Magic, it is considered colluding and highly illegal. I hope the next update they make to the rules take IDing out.

actually it's perfectly legal in mtg and quite common

To quote mtg tournament rules:

"2.4 Conceding or Intentionally Drawing Games or Matches

If a game or match is not completed, players may concede or mutually agree to a draw in that game or match. A

match is considered complete once the result slip is filled out or, if match slips are not being used, a player leaves

the table after game play is finished. Until that point, either player may concede to or draw with the other, though

if the conceding player won a game in the match, the match must be reported as 2-1. Intentional draws are always

reported as 0-0-3."

Edit: pdf herehttp://wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/mtg_mtr_8apr16_ena.pdf

Seriously? Okay. Maybe I'm wrong. Last I played though, it was completely discouraged.

NO NO NO NO WAIT:

This declares ONLY if a match is not completed.

You may not offer a draw or concession for any reward or incentive, such as a drawn score.

"If a game or match is not completed, players may concede or mutually agree to a draw in that game or match. A match is considered complete once the result slip is filled out or, if match slips are not being used, a player leaves the table after game play is finished. Until that point, either player may concede to or draw with the other, though if the conceding player won a game in the match, the match must be reported as 2-1. Intentional draws where no games were played are always reported as 0-0-3.[/size]

Players may not agree to a concession or draw in exchange for any reward or incentive. Doing so will be considered Bribery (see section 5.2). [/size]

If a player refuses to play, it is assumed that he or she has conceded the match. "[/size]

NOT LEGAL [/size]

Intentional draws are clearly legal by this statement and as someone who has attended mtg tournaments in the past I can say Intentional draws are standard practice

In Magic, it is considered colluding and highly illegal. I hope the next update they make to the rules take IDing out.

Litterally the opposite of true. MTG absolutely allows the exact types of IDs that all FFG games now allow. You are very much misinformed.

I just read it ard, you were right the first time IMO.

Would you fault a player for playing a points denial game if it gets him where he needs to be points wise? If both players are going to do that anyway, why not just skip the stupid?

Don't get me wrong, I see your point, and your passion, and I respect it. But I don't really think its a huge deal, and I wouldn't blame a table for doing this, even if I were to be the one who got shut out by it. But if its in both players rational self interest to handshake a draw, I don't really blame them for acting in their own best interests.

This effectively invalidates the entire final round, pre-cut, out of most large events. That's a huge deal in things like revivals where people may be traveling hundreds of miles to attend.

If you play well enough to be in a position in which 5pts makes you and your opponent uncatchable by others in the standings, there is no way to prevent you both from ensuring that you both score 5 points. Neither of you have any incentive to engage each other, so you just won't do it. So why beat around the bush instead of just letting those players take the ID?

For an ID to ensure both players make a cut you have to be at least 6 points up on every other player outside the cut. That means the circumstances in which an ID beneficial is going to be exceedingly rare.

Your X-wing example is also highly suspect as the circumstances in which the entire Top 8 could safely take an ID in the final round are only possible in the case of a hilariously large amount of draws and modified wins on the part of those outside the cut (as to not be realistic) or in the case of an absurdly poorly attended Regional in which FFG requires an overly large cut (again not realistic). There will absolutely be some players in a position to take an ID and advance, but with the prescribed number of rounds to attendance for X-wing realistically that will not be an option for the whole cut. There will be spots left open for those behind in the standings going into the last round to jump into.

Scoring should not be made public during the event.

Announcing or posting scores does nothing to enhance the event. The only thing it provides for is negative feels.

"You know, I only need a 5-5 draw to win the event."

"We're friends and you already won a bye so let me win to get my bye."

"Let's 5-5 draw to lock in our 1st and 2nd place."

The only reason to keep scores public is to provide opportunity to collude. Sure, a player could try and figure out the scores by asking around, but if it was generally agreed to be poor etiquette people wouldn't do it.

You can only win 1 bye anyway, so why does that matter?

So you don't think there is value in a player knowing that going into the last round he/she needs to 10-0 thier opponent to have a shot at winning/Top 4/whatever and thus needs to be overly aggressive when it comes to thier play and objective selection as opposed to just "settling" for a comfortable 8-2 win?

@DrunkTarkin - you like playing blind as well as drunk? If you know you *need* a 9-1 or better to have a chance of advancing - isn't it better to know so you can try the one in a hundred (never tell me the odds!) risky gambit vs the safe strategy that's been giving you 6-4 wins all day.

I don't see anything wrong if someone plays well enough to get into a position where they can safely take a 5-5. If the opponent wants a game then it's on, if not then we are supposed to be adults. Collusion is offering someone compensation or undue influence to get the draw (or win).

http://www.tabletopgeneral.com/2016/04/05/to-the-death/

I'm asking you, begging you even:

If you see players at the top tables intentionally draw a game to maintain a scoring position either by asking for a draw or playing an intentional draw, do the entire community a favor and immediately report them for unsporting conduct, to the tournament organizer and if that's not acted on then to FFG themselves.

So what exactly do you think reporting players to a TO or FFG will do, when the behavior your are reporting is something that FFG added to thier event rules and has expressly allowed to occur in events they have ran?

@ Scottie and Og, an Armada tournament for me is a chance to play three games against three new opponents. I want to win all my games of course, and while knowing the score can help you make decisions like risking that last ship to try and change a 7-3 to an 8-2, I don't believe that knowledge makes the overall experience more enjoyable. Just go in blind (and drunk) and play to win all your games. Simple.

This could just be indicative of my own lack of ability. I'm just not talented enough to play at different speeds.

"Hm, this situation requires me to play at 7-3 speed rather than 6-4."

Yyyeah, rrright.