Can you spend a focus token to modify zero results?

R4 Agromech + Deadeye. I spend my focus to fire the ordnance, then gain a TL. Correct? Suppose I have R4 and roll 3 blanks on a primary attack, can I spend my focus to modify nothing to gain a TL to reroll those blanks?

How do you feel about this new rule (I'm told that this is so as of Wave 8)? I think you should have to have something to spend the token on, like a focus result in order to actually spend the token. Otherwise, it's just a jerk around. I like the way R4 interacts with Deadeye, for 2 points that's a great deal, but then that makes sense. You spent the focus on the missile, so the token was actually needed for something. Just being able to take a focus and then turn it into a TL for no reason smacks of rules lawyering to me and I think mechanics like this where you can activate rules simply to trigger another rule are what kill good games. Rules bloat, I think it's called.

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. Can being able to spend tokens to modify nothing actually be a healthy game rule? If so how? I think it is a poor way to go because it suspends the fantasy of the game. I mean to say it makes X-Wing feel more like a game of rules rather than a game of spaceships. We're no longer trying to build a squad of pilots flying Star Wars ships, we're trying to build a framework of rules that allow us to ignore or exploit the natural game rules.

Yes, you can. See the FAQ entries for Garven Dreis and Keyan Farlander, you're explicitly permitted to spend tokens which wouldn't do anything in order to trigger upgrades r abilities.

Agreed you can. Its not of wave 8 but 1 faq before.

But there is logic in it: you always spend a focus to do something: to modify dice. Rules does specify only that you modify ALL eyes. They dont require you to have at least 1 eye to change it. Wanna waste it? Your call.

You can't spend a Focus token to modify zero [eye] results. You can spend a Focus token to modify all [eye] results. If there don't happen to be any [eye] results, then no modifications will result, but you still get to spend the token.

I mention this because it's distinct from the way Target Locks work, where you get to choose which dice will be affected, and therefore can choose to reroll zero dice.

They could have written the Focus Token rule to require that you have at least one [eye] result to modify, but they didn't. This isn't new in Wave 8.

I don't think this is an example of game-killing rules bloat, but we can agree to disagree on that. I don't see how it damages suspension of disbelief either, unless you've really committed to a particular in-world concept of what a Focus token means. I can't think of very many situations where you'd even want to do this, but maybe they come up often enough in your games that it's a problem for you. But again, we can agree to disagree on that.

Off the top of my head, the times when you might want to spend a Focus token even when you haven't got any [eye] results:

• You're Garven Dreis and you want to pass it to a nearby buddy.
• You have R4 Agromech
• You have Overclocked R4 and you need to be stressed for some reason.
• You have Overclocked R4 and Attanni Mindlink and you need to pass a Focus (and possibly a stress) to a buddy.
• There's an enemy ship with Opportunist and you want to lure it into attacking you instead of an ally.

What'd I miss?

You may only spend a Focus token at certain times. Now despite the token doing nothing at that time (nothing to modify) you are still allowed to spend it.

Spending a focus token with out having eye results has been ok since at least wave 2 or 3. It seems a bit odd but I don't think it should be changed because of the various abilities it would affect at this point.

Spending a focus token with out having eye results has been ok since at least wave 2 or 3.

Wave 1 with Garven was when it first came up.

Spending a focus token with out having eye results has been ok since at least wave 2 or 3. It seems a bit odd but I don't think it should be changed because of the various abilities it would affect at this point.

It's not really odd at all. As digitalbusker says, on either attack or defense you can spend a focus token to change all [eye] results to [boom] or [evade]. Why would it make more sense to introduce a minimum number of results that have to be present?

Can you spend a focus token to modify zero results?

R4 Agromech + Deadeye. I spend my focus to fire the ordnance, then gain a TL. Correct? Suppose I have R4 and roll 3 blanks on a primary attack, can I spend my focus to modify nothing to gain a TL to reroll those blanks?

How do you feel about this new rule (I'm told that this is so as of Wave 8)? I think you should have to have something to spend the token on, like a focus result in order to actually spend the token. Otherwise, it's just a jerk around. I like the way R4 interacts with Deadeye, for 2 points that's a great deal, but then that makes sense. You spent the focus on the missile, so the token was actually needed for something. Just being able to take a focus and then turn it into a TL for no reason smacks of rules lawyering to me and I think mechanics like this where you can activate rules simply to trigger another rule are what kill good games. Rules bloat, I think it's called.

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. Can being able to spend tokens to modify nothing actually be a healthy game rule? If so how? I think it is a poor way to go because it suspends the fantasy of the game. I mean to say it makes X-Wing feel more like a game of rules rather than a game of spaceships. We're no longer trying to build a squad of pilots flying Star Wars ships, we're trying to build a framework of rules that allow us to ignore or exploit the natural game rules.

There's one thing that leaps out at me here. How many focus tokens are you starting with? Because if you only had one and spent it (using Deadeye) to fire ordnance, it's not going to be around when you get to the Modify Attack Dice step, unless it happens to be a missile or torpedo that only requires you have one and it doesn't need to be spent to fire.

As for your other point, about being allowed to spend a token to modify nothing, just to be able to trigger an ability that needs a token spent, I agree that it's a bit cheesy. I think FFG should have required at least one result in order for the token to be spent to modify. It's probably the one thing in the game that just doesn't sit right with me. They have ruled that you don't need results in order to spend the token, and that's the way it generally plays, but it still makes it seem a bit cheesy in my opinion.

2 things

1 - Easy to misunderstand, but he was talking about a r1 primary weapon attack for the second part.

Suppose I have R4 and roll 3 blanks on a primary attack

2- To answer the question. Yes you can. Remember when you spend a focus token you this is what happens. Pg. 12 of the rule book under modifying dice.

Spending a Focus Token: If the attacker has a focus token, he may return it to the supply to change all of his results to results

The important wording is "May". The order of operations is, you spend the focus token, then you "may" change all of the focus results (sorry if the copy past didn't put the icon in the quotes) into boom results. The may wording means you can choose to turn all of them, or not, and does not require any to be present. So if you roll 3 blanks with r4 agromech you can spend the focus (if you have one) then you May change all of the focus results into boom results. R4 Agromech triggers off spending the focus (even if no focus results are present, OR you choose not to "change all of his focus results into boom results"), then you may acquire a target lock. Because you are still in the modify attack dice step, you can spend the target lock as normal still.

2 things

1 - Easy to misunderstand, but he was talking about a r1 primary weapon attack for the second part.

Suppose I have R4 and roll 3 blanks on a primary attack

2- To answer the question. Yes you can. Remember when you spend a focus token you this is what happens. Pg. 12 of the rule book under modifying dice.

Spending a Focus Token: If the attacker has a focus token, he may return it to the supply to change all of his results to results

The important wording is "May". The order of operations is, you spend the focus token, then you "may" change all of the focus results (sorry if the copy past didn't put the icon in the quotes) into boom results. The may wording means you can choose to turn all of them, or not, and does not require any to be present. So if you roll 3 blanks with r4 agromech you can spend the focus (if you have one) then you May change all of the focus results into boom results. R4 Agromech triggers off spending the focus (even if no focus results are present, OR you choose not to "change all of his focus results into boom results"), then you may acquire a target lock. Because you are still in the modify attack dice step, you can spend the target lock as normal still.

You have the May in the wrong place, even though the result is correct.

You May return the focus token. Then you must change all focus results into hit results.

Spending the token is the choice. If you do then you change all focus results. All includes 0 if you have rolled no focus results.

2 things

1 - Easy to misunderstand, but he was talking about a r1 primary weapon attack for the second part.

Suppose I have R4 and roll 3 blanks on a primary attack

2- To answer the question. Yes you can. Remember when you spend a focus token you this is what happens. Pg. 12 of the rule book under modifying dice.

Spending a Focus Token: If the attacker has a focus token, he may return it to the supply to change all of his results to results

The important wording is "May". The order of operations is, you spend the focus token, then you "may" change all of the focus results (sorry if the copy past didn't put the icon in the quotes) into boom results. The may wording means you can choose to turn all of them, or not, and does not require any to be present. So if you roll 3 blanks with r4 agromech you can spend the focus (if you have one) then you May change all of the focus results into boom results. R4 Agromech triggers off spending the focus (even if no focus results are present, OR you choose not to "change all of his focus results into boom results"), then you may acquire a target lock. Because you are still in the modify attack dice step, you can spend the target lock as normal still.

You have the May in the wrong place, even though the result is correct.

You May return the focus token. Then you must change all focus results into hit results.

Spending the token is the choice. If you do then you change all focus results. All includes 0 if you have rolled no focus results.

it's a direct copy paste from the rule book, like i said page 12 under modifying dice. you have the choice of changing focus results into boom results, you do not have the choice on how many to change, it's all or none.

EDIT - Thats what i get for posting from mobile, i rechecked, i must have clicked on the Learn to Play Rules. The Rules reference does list it slightly differently.

Focus: The attacker can spend a focus token to change all of his (Focus) results to (boom) results.

Then the FAQ clarifies that you can indeed spend a focus token when there is no focus results.

Sorry for any confusion that might have caused, they need to make sure the Learn to Play rules and the Rules Reference say the same thing =(

Be careful of Omega Leader. If you are shooting Omega Leader and the ship has you locked, then you cannot spend a focus token to modify results (even if zero results) to acquire your target lock with R4 Agromech. A modification of zero results is still considered a modification even though nothing is actually changing.

Be careful of Omega Leader. If you are shooting Omega Leader and the ship has you locked, then you cannot spend a focus token to modify results (even if zero results) to acquire your target lock with R4 Agromech. A modification of zero results is still considered a modification even though nothing is actually changing.

This position is not supported by the rules.

OL doesn't block you from spending the token, he blocks you from doing the modifying. But that's another point that could use FAQing.

Modifying 0 dice is still modifying dice, Omega Leader prevents modifying dice. I'm pretty sure that came up at Hoth, but it was not my game, so i can't be 100% sure, it was a game next to me, and i was only half paying attention because my game was still going on.

Modifying 0 dice is still modifying dice, Omega Leader prevents modifying dice. I'm pretty sure that came up at Hoth, but it was not my game, so i can't be 100% sure, it was a game next to me, and i was only half paying attention because my game was still going on.

He prevents you modifying dice, he doesn't prevent you spending tokens. His ability intervenes after the token is spent, not before.

You are spending the token to modify dice, depending on the token you can choose to modifiy 0 dice, but spending the token (during the dice modification step) is modifying dice.

Page 5 of the FAQ Under spending Tokens, added (focus) where the Eye Icon is in the FAQ.

Spending Tokens When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack dice. Additionally, players may spend a focus token even if they do not roll any (focus) results. When defending, players may spend focus tokens even if they do not roll any (focus) results and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in excess of the number of hit and critical hit results.

Remember that you cannot just spend a token, you can spend it for an effect. Sometimes that effect has the "may" conditional, giving the player a choice, but it is still spent for that effect.

So if you spend a target lock, you can choose 0, but you are still spending the lock to modify dice, Omega Leader prevents dice modifications, and blocks this.

If you spend a focus token, you are spending it to modify dice. It doesn't matter if you have no focus results, you are still spending it to modify 0. Omega leader prevents dice modifications, and blocks this.

If you are insistent that this is not correct, i would simply ask. What effect is letting you spend the focus token or what effect are you spending the token for? If the answer involves modifying dice ......

Spending a focus token with out having eye results has been ok since at least wave 2 or 3. It seems a bit odd but I don't think it should be changed because of the various abilities it would affect at this point.

It's not really odd at all. As digitalbusker says, on either attack or defense you can spend a focus token to change all [eye] results to [boom] or [evade]. Why would it make more sense to introduce a minimum number of results that have to be present?

It's odd in that it's not all that intuitive. It's some thing I picked up in the FAQ back when I started playing the game (just before wave 3 iirc) and I've had to explain the rule to at least a dozen new/casual players at my game store. I don't have a problem with the rule or anything, It's just one of those things new players tend not to pick up on in my experience.

You are spending the token to modify dice, depending on the token you can choose to modifiy 0 dice, but spending the token (during the dice modification step) is modifying dice.

Page 5 of the FAQ Under spending Tokens, added (focus) where the Eye Icon is in the FAQ.

Spending Tokens When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack dice. Additionally, players may spend a focus token even if they do not roll any (focus) results. When defending, players may spend focus tokens even if they do not roll any (focus) results and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in excess of the number of hit and critical hit results.

Remember that you cannot just spend a token, you can spend it for an effect. Sometimes that effect has the "may" conditional, giving the player a choice, but it is still spent for that effect.

So if you spend a target lock, you can choose 0, but you are still spending the lock to modify dice, Omega Leader prevents dice modifications, and blocks this.

If you spend a focus token, you are spending it to modify dice. It doesn't matter if you have no focus results, you are still spending it to modify 0. Omega leader prevents dice modifications, and blocks this.

If you are insistent that this is not correct, i would simply ask. What effect is letting you spend the focus token or what effect are you spending the token for? If the answer involves modifying dice ......

The spending of the token is a cost. The modifying of the dice is an effect. I can pay the cost, but the effect is blocked.

If OL blocked the spending of tokens, his ability would specifically say so. Like Carnor's does.

(In most cases, I would be spending the token because I get a bennie for doing so, e.g. acquire a TL as above (not that useful against OL, obv), lose a stress (Keyan), pass it to someone else (Garven), etc. I'm spending it as a cost to activate those things, then being blocked from modifying any dice as a result of spending it, by Omega Leader's ability)

Paying the cost is part of the Modify dice steps, which omega leader blocks. If you have some other way to spend a focus token, such as Kanan Jarrus' Pilot ability, then you can still spend the focus, because that is modifying dice.

The action is a dice modification, not just physically modifying the dice, and the cost is not divorced from this. The one exception to this, is if the cost is separated by a "may" such as with accuracy corrector. First you cancel your results (cancellation is not modification), then you "may" add results. Because the default usage of a focus token does not have a may (as i was corrected on earlier) after you spend the focus, you MUST modify your dice results, even if there are no focus results on the dice you are still modifying 0 dice. Because you are modifying dice, Omega Leader prevents spending the focus for the default focus action.

Paying the cost is part of the Modify dice steps, which omega leader blocks. If you have some other way to spend a focus token, such as Kanan Jarrus' Pilot ability, then you can still spend the focus, because that is modifying dice.

The action is a dice modification, not just physically modifying the dice, and the cost is not divorced from this. The one exception to this, is if the cost is separated by a "may" such as with accuracy corrector. First you cancel your results (cancellation is not modification), then you "may" add results. Because the default usage of a focus token does not have a may (as i was corrected on earlier) after you spend the focus, you MUST modify your dice results, even if there are no focus results on the dice you are still modifying 0 dice. Because you are modifying dice, Omega Leader prevents spending the focus for the default focus action.

As noted, I don't think this position is supported by the rules, but it clearly needs FAQing one way or the other, because it's going to come up more and more as OL gets used more and more, which he will.

To elaborate, modifying dice is defined as:

- changing results

- adding results

- rerolling dice

Spending a focus token is none of those things. It is a cost you pay to try to do one of those things, but OL blocks the doing, not the spending.

Of course, I've been stridently in favour of a particular position WRT OL previously and an email from Frank has said otherwise, and as in that case, if there's an official position that says otherwise I'm happy to concede.

I can understand that. As far as it not being supported i just don't see where spending the token is divorced from the effect, specifically for the default usage of focus, and target lock specifically. If it is divorced from the effect, then it could work as you are saying, but they are all "First one then two" styled statements, not "First one, then you may two" styled statements. the "may" is important because as per the x wing terms (remember we are using "may" as the term not as the actual word) it gives you a choice on activating the second effect or not after the first effect has happened, thus divorcing the two effects. Such as the accuracy corrector example.

But is it clear that Keyan can remove a stress token to change a focus to a hit if he didn't roll any focus results? Keyan's card says "remove" as opposed to "spend".

But is it clear that Keyan can remove a stress token to change a focus to a hit if he didn't roll any focus results? Keyan's card says "remove" as opposed to "spend".

The point is we have an FAQ that clearly states you can spend a focus token even though there are no dice eligible for modification. In this particular case no dice modification happens when you spend the token so it is allowed because it doesn't violate OL's ability.