I have a small doubt regarding the use of Lifethirst in the following situation:

A hero lies dead. Song of Mending (Bard class) is in effect and would heal that hero with 1 life. Lifethirst 1 is also in play from a near Crow Hag monster. Understudy (Bard class) is also in play, allowing a hero healing 1 life to heal another 1 life.

Would the hero be revived with 1+1-1 = 1 life total?

Or would the hero still lay dead? (Lifethirst triggers first so Understudy does not trigger).

What I think is that the heroes decide the order of triggering of the abilities since it's their turn, therefore the hero would stand up. I´m not completely sure, though.

Has anybody asked this before?

This sort of reminds me of the Pins and Needles + Doom discussion that was had recently.

This sort of reminds me of the Pins and Needles + Doom discussion that was had recently.

This one was probably even worse and certainly a nightmare to explain to my players. We´re still not clear on that. Hope my question is a little easier to answer, since these abilities should theoritically trigger at the same time (no crazy combat sub-sequence like in the Pins and Needles discussion).

In my opinion it is 0 and he stays dead.

Understudy triggers when a hero recovers 1 life. It does not boost song of mending by 1 by default.

So the hero tries to recover life, lifethirst blocks it, understudy never triggers. End of story imo.

I´m not sure because both Bloodthirst and Understudy have the same formulation: "each time a hero recovers 1 or more life..."

Had Lifethirst stated would recover instead, then I would understand it as triggering before the actual life gain, thus triggering first and barring Understudy from triggering in the end (since the hero did not recover any life). But in the current state of that phrasing, it looks like both cards need to wait for the lifegain to be in effect (effectively making the hero stand up immediately) to apply. For lack of indication that one effect would take place before the other one (again, same phrasing), I assume both effects to be cumulative and take each other out.

But I´m not 100% sure

I don't have the Crow Hags so I am going to trust Indalecio's research on this. I agree with the point that if they have the same trigger condition, the heroes decide the order so he could stand up. For the sake of simplicity:)

Alright, that does make it a bit more open to different interpretations (I didn't have the 'Lifethirst' text with me).

But I don't know, I would say, even if I was playing said hero, that lifethirst would go before Understudy.

In my mind it makes the most sense, also thematically. (Like that situations on the map itself have a small priority over cards when it comes to order of resolution)

But lets see what other have to say ofcourse

I don't have the Crow Hags so I am going to trust Indalecio's research on this. I agree with the point that if they have the same trigger condition, the heroes decide the order so he could stand up. For the sake of simplicity:)

Well actually the last post I made seems to make more sense (to me at least ), and the heroes would not need to decide anything since both effects would trigger simultaneously, with cumulated result.

I was about to pick Crow Hags as my open group for the second encounter of Rise of Urthko, but the presence of these Bard skills are making me re-consider that choice in the light of this discussion...

I was about to pick Crow Hags as my open group for the second encounter of Rise of Urthko, but the presence of these Bard skills are making me re-consider that choice in the light of this discussion...

With more Crow Hags it is possible to counter the Understudy. Also, does the Bard have choice as to whether or not auto revive with song of mending? Because that 1 damage to a freshly revived hero is easily dealt.

Alright, that does make it a bit more open to different interpretations (I didn't have the 'Lifethirst' text with me).

But I don't know, I would say, even if I was playing said hero, that lifethirst would go before Understudy.

In my mind it makes the most sense, also thematically. (Like that situations on the map itself have a small priority over cards when it comes to order of resolution)

But lets see what other have to say ofcourse

From a thematical perspective, we could also say that Understudy makes the Bards songs more 'mending' and too powerful to counter for the crow hags. With enough creativity anything can make thematical sense in a fantasy world which A) doesn't mind physics because magic and B) while set in a medieval looking period has nothing to 'crumble into the milk' as we Dutch say:p While it is fun to discuss the theme, it is like arguing about how Jar Jar Binks is a Sith Lord. It can lead to some crazy funny discussions but it creates as many caveats as it fills.

There was a point made in another thread how it would make thematical sense that a hero couldn't swap armor mid battle. But I can give you a hundred examples of the most idiotic things in a fantasy world so I would argue that RAW: same trigger-> the hero could stand up.

I don't mind though, fantasy is cool:)

I knew there was a good reason we Belgians separated from the dutch!

But yeah, like I said, its open to many different interpretations.

maybe the golden rule #2 will clarify this?

Timing conflicts may arise when two or more players wish to use an ability with the same triggering condition. In these situations, the current player (the player who is currently taking his turn) decides the order in which the abilities are resolved.

Song of Mending will trigger at the end of his turn, and will trigger both lifethirst and understudy.

after that, current player (i think it is bard) can choose order of ability activation.

i think, that as trigger condition is same and already happend, player will recover 1 hp in any case

It's all about those triggers. Because they resolve simultaneously, the active player chooses the order in which they resolve. That part is unequivocally true. An actual answer to the referenced Doom question (and this) requires an answer to: "when resolving two abilities with the same trigger, does the second ability resolve using the state of the game when it was triggered, or when it is resolved?" To some degree, I know the answer to this.

What do we know?

1) Lifethirst and Understudy essentially have equal and opposite effects. One says, "if recover 1, recover +1." The other says, "if recover 1, recover -1".

2) Neither effect constitutes a separate instance of recovery or damage. That is, if we imagine a Bard who only has "Song of Mending" and not "Understudy", the dead hero does not recover 1 to stand up, and the recover 1 less and get KO again. The single recovery is simply cancelled by "Lifethirst". Similarly, "Understudy" does not mean he recovers 1, then recovers 1 more as two separate instances of health recovery. In 1 "event", he recovers 2 wound.

Given these two points, my inclination would be to say that it is entirely dependent on the active player. If the active player chooses to resolve "understudy" first, then it would be (1+1)-1=1 damage recovered. If the active player decides to resolve "Lifethirst" first, it's (1-1)+...=0 damage recovered. That is, Lifethirst cancels the first wound, so the trigger for Understudy is no longer valid.

I'm basing that interpretation off of effects that allow movement and attack at the same time. That is, if events with conflicting triggers (like Alric's Overpower and Knight's Guard) allow a figure to perform an attack but allow the other figure to move out of the way "at the same time," if the movement ability is resolved first putting the target out of LOS or range, even though the attack ability resolves, nothing will happen since the target is no longer valid.

EDIT: Just decided to go at this treating the abilities as actual mathematical operators. If that is the case, then the resolving order definitely matters (If Lifethirst triggers first, no understudy benefit.) Not that I think this is ACTUALLY how the abilities were planned, but for fun:

**BEGIN MATH

Let x = the # wound recovered.

Understudy operates on x as:

When x < 0 or x = 0, U(x) = x

When x > 0, U(x) = x+1

Lifethirst operates on x as:

When x < 0 or x = 0, L(x) = x

When x > 0, L(x) = x-1

Therefore, the order of resolution gives us L(U(x)) or U(L(x)).

Let's assume x is equal to 1 (some event that causes a single recovery of wound).

L(U(1))

=L (1+1)

=L(2)

= 2-1= 1

However

U(L(1))

=U(1-1)

=U(0)

=0

**END MATH

In any case, this is absolutely an FFG question. I'll submit it.

By the way, I just submitted the following:

That was fast!

Wait, can a Bard have Song of Mending and Understudy active at the same time? because they both requires the same song token?

Edit: I looked it up using the class cards and the rulebook section that describes the song tokens, and he can't. Case closed, everybody is dismissed! Let's go home! No more complex rules conflicts, hurray!

Edit: I cheered too soon my friends! With Cacophony, the Bard can trigger both Song of Mendig and Understud at the same time for the cost of 3 fatigue. Or he can use Concentration instead of Understudy, both will have the effect of extra healing for the same trigger, for the cost of 1 fatigue.

Well, a similar situation could occur with things like elder mok's ability and others if the above turned out to be impossible.

Yeah- it doesn't have to be "Song of Mending" and "Understudy" just some effect that causes health regeneration and "Understudy".

Atom4geVampire, I'm pretty sure the response time has to do with when the questions are read, not necessarily when they are submitted (that is, I got lucky and submitted a question near to when rules questions were being answered.)

Yeah, I assumed something like that. Lucky indeed!

I also got a response from FFG yesterday but I wasn't able to post it until now

Rules Question:
Hello FFG support, I would like to ask you about the following situation: A hero lies dead and Song of Mending (Bard class) is about to revive that hero, with both Lifethirst 1 from a nearby Crow Hag and Understudy (Bard class) in play. Both abilities (Lifethirst and Understudy) state "each time a hero recovers 1 life", so my understanding is that the hero is revived first due to Song of Mending, then both Lifethirst and Understudy abilities trigger, taking out each other. The result is a standing hero with 1 life. Is that correct? Thanks BR

Thanks for playing,

You guys are so helpful, you have no idea...

Every time I run into something that seems vague or confusing in the RAW I always come here and see the same group of people have either already gotten an official answer months/years ago or I find well thought out and explained debates that help clarify the situation.

I just wanted to let you know that, while it hasn't been your intention perhaps, people like Zaltyre, Indalecio, any2cards, Atom4geVampir, Charmy, Cesarsalad101and all of the people over at BGG (some already mentioned) you've been a great help in making my group's experience with this game even better! Thank you!

I just wanted to let you know that, while it hasn't been your intention perhaps, people like Zaltyre, Indalecio, any2cards, Atom4geVampir, Charmy, Cesarsalad101and all of the people over at BGG (some already mentioned) you've been a great help in making my group's experience with this game even better! Thank you!

I can only second that!

Those quick responses, confirmations by the above mentioned (and others), Atom's tracker... and then there are even user made quests & campaigns yet to be tried out..

My group's gaming experience wouldnt be the same without it. This amazing game comes with a lot of questions - you guys provide the much needed support.

Hats off.