A serious question now for those here using RAW. Does the DP flip to use Dark Side Force pips (or LSfp if your a DSFU) count as your "Once per Action" use? It's not in the normal sequence of a turn that DP's are normally used, but it is still before the conclusion of that action. I can't find an exact clarification anywhere one way or the other.

I believe so. While at GamerNation Con over the weekend, I was in a high-XP* Force and Destiny game with Sam Stewart as a fellow player. I was going to use Enhance to do something (forgot what) and was about to flip a DP to upgrade my roll when Sam cautioned me so save it** in case I need to convert pips. This implied that if I flipped the DP now, it wouldn't be available to me should I need to spend dark pips.

*The GM wanted to run it to see how broken the game got at 2,000XP. It wasn't, but the GM was using mostly Nemesis rather than Minions or Rivals.

**Being a group of all lightside paragons, we had planty of white tokens to spend.

I had suspected as much, thank you kaosoe. If anything that's exactly why a DP should be required.

Wow, 2000xp, that would have been fun. Nice of Sam to step in and help try to break his own system too.

A serious question now for those here using RAW. Does the DP flip to use Dark Side Force pips (or LSfp if your a DSFU) count as your "Once per Action" use? It's not in the normal sequence of a turn that DP's are normally used, but it is still before the conclusion of that action. I can't find an exact clarification anywhere one way or the other.

I treat it as a "once per action" use, as it's an additional option that Force users have to utilize a destiny point in addition to the standard list of options that muggles have.

"Magic Beans are supposed to get you something cool, not give you the privilege of suffering mechanical setbacks. Though I would still use them for everything except pip use."

This is where we have different opinions, DP are not "magic beans" or something special that the characters covet. It's the flow of the force. The force reacts to those attuned to it when those attuned bend the force to their will.

I don't see a reason why any character would ever even use DP if you implemented thesee rules, there would literally be no reason to. Most characters can get by with normal duce roles, except force powers.

You should play a campaign and let us know how improved you're game is over ours. Unfortunately you will never understand how the rules are supposed to work. Someone had suggested that you just remove force dice and have them get light side if they are light side and dark side if they are dark side, you might as well do this too because it would be easier for your PCs. Throw out all the dice, we wouldn't want PCS making choices or failing rolls.

A serious question now for those here using RAW. Does the DP flip to use Dark Side Force pips (or LSfp if your a DSFU) count as your "Once per Action" use? It's not in the normal sequence of a turn that DP's are normally used, but it is still before the conclusion of that action. I can't find an exact clarification anywhere one way or the other.

I treat it as a "once per action" use, as it's an additional option that Force users have to utilize a destiny point in addition to the standard list of options that muggles have.

Aye, thats how we usually treat it. Players and DM can spend as much Force Points as they want, but for a particular action only one may be spent through the entire action.

For example, my PC Tobin Stryder has 3 different things he could use it on for a combat check:

Spend 1 to upgrade a dice.

Spend 1 if carrying lightsaber to use Darkside pips on a hawkbat swoop.

Spend 1 if successful hit to add 5 damage (A-Lessons)

I used to get a lot of weird looks for not spending it on an important check, until I had demonstrated the benifit of A-lessons. I ended up one shot my nemesis in a quickdraw showdown by spending A lessons on a dueling pistol shot that already dealt 16 damage, since then they stopped asking. It was a epic western moment.

Just FYI: The strain/Dpoint usage is kinda the mechanic to help prevent overuse of the force, and help apply a possible route of "failure" for using the force (unlike previous systems Morality isn't a punishment system). By eliminating that you're basically giving the player free reign to use the force for everything all the time. Considering what some powers can do, especially with upgrades, this could cause some pretty significant unbalance...

"(unlike previous systems Morality isn't a punishment system)" - Agreed. One of the selling points.

"By eliminating that you're basically giving the player free reign to use the force for everything all the time." - Exactly.

"Considering what some powers can do, especially with upgrades, this could cause some pretty significant unbalance..."- With this system, I don't think so. You can already do it, it just costs more.

It's less an issue of costing more, and more an issue of requiring you manage a resource. Strain and Dpoints should move back and forth over an adventure, but they don't grow on trees, so the expenditure combined with the flipping is what keeps players from spamming force powers. Flip too many pips now, you'll be short of strain needed to fuel Force Talents later. (Remember, the Force in the system isn't just the Powers, its' also the Talents). By extension this also causes some weirdness with the Light/Dark mechanic since one of it's features is adjusting those strain and Dpoint resources, and thus encourages light and dark players to have to consider different builds.

If you do this, initially you won't see a huge issue, and if you're playing a short or low XP game it probably won't matter at all. If you're in it for the long haul, then when the players start getting +1FR talents and force power upgrades, you'll start to see the problem. Having ready access to all the pips on the table will make it a lot easier to activate the more Force Unleashed level force effects often.

Now, if that's what you're going for... have at it. Just be ready to have to start throwing equally over the top opposition at the players, and if everyone in the group isn't going for the over the top force wielder character type, you probably need to consider going RAW to avoid the old "Jedi and his worthless mundane friends that can't do anything" issue previous systems had...

Can you expound on Dark and Light characters needing different builds?

They don't NEED different builds, but if you go RAW, they may want different builds due to XP:Ability economy and the dice mechanics.

I'll try and keep this quick....

OK, when rolling force dice, the odds of getting black pips are 7:12, but the odds of getting 2 black pips are only 1:12. While the odds of rolling white pips are 5:12 but the odds of getting 2 White are 1:4

So, a lightsider will find getting the right pips tough (especially at first) but as they Gain FR will find it easier to get ample pips to fuel his powers. As he becomes a paragon he'll also have extra strain and Dpoints, so flipping a pip here and there won't be a huge deal to him. As a result when it comes time to build, he can go for a focused build with high reliability, or spread out, trading reliability for more options and upgrades. Getting lots of +1FR talents isn't a priority since he can usually make a few FR work for him.

A darksider will usually have the right pips, but the quantity will tend to be less. As he goes on, while he'll have a high WT, his lower ST and reduced starting Dpoint count will make flipping more costly. So to get the same power output of a lightsider the darksider will need a higher FR. As a result Darksiders will probably want to make a more focused, deliberate build, targeting stackable power upgrades, powers that commit instead of roll, and methods of getting +1FRs.

Which does kinda match the films. The Darkside is faster and easier, but not more powerful. Sith tend to be very power focused and good at specific Force things, but also pretty diverse in non-force areas (extra specializations to get those +1FRs=more career skills and talents). Jedi tend to be more broad in the force, able to use all different kinds of powers, but also tend to be less broadly skilled (fewer Specs usually within the same career or UniSpecs) and spend a lot of time worried about their morality score since they make more use of pip flipping.

So, back to your proposed house rule: By making all pips usable without a Dpoint, and mid-grade Morality ignore both Dpoint and Strain, you're going to throw the system out of whack a bit. Darksiders will still have the Strain issues, but as strain is easily recoverable and offsetable with gear, they'll have less issue flipping pips, becoming more powerful and having an easier time picking and choosing the best force combo power-build. Lightsiders will actually become a smidge weaker, as their spare dpoint won't matter, only their strain, which while still limiting isn't as limiting as the Dpoint was when compared to the Darkside. And "grey" will be come the optimal, as it will allow for the force to always work to maximum effect every time at virtually no cost, allowing Grey characters to just spam the force. And that's where you kinda neuter morality too. It takes a lot of conflict to move your morality down significantly (to help keep the player in control of it). By allowing Greys to use the force and pip flip for free, they'll be more likely to gain conflict fast, but as long as they otherwise keep their nose clean (The real conflict blasts come from evil actions, not force usage) then they'll likely float in Grey perpetually without much trying, which is the most beneficial anyway. So the players will be able use the force all the time, for everything, and actually be rewarded for it most of the time.

Like I said, if you're going to run a short/low XP campaign, and everyone is going to be a force user, it'll probably work out ok.

If you're going to run a conventional campaign, or not everyone wants to be a force focused character, you'll have problems as the Jedi will go Super Saiyan and require have the Imperial fleet to even slow down, and the non-forcees will feel like sidekicks of sidekicks.

Not to mention the Dark Sider is more comfortable with doing icky things such as Coercion, causing Fear and efficiently killing others. Light Siders often want a non confrontational method of resolving problems to attempt before combat.

Not to mention the Dark Sider is more comfortable with doing icky things such as Coercion, causing Fear and efficiently killing others. Light Siders often want a non confrontational method of resolving problems to attempt before combat.

To be fair, Coercion is a non confrontational method of resolving a problem before combat. It's not inherently dark sider to do it.

Not to mention the Dark Sider is more comfortable with doing icky things such as Coercion, causing Fear and efficiently killing others. Light Siders often want a non confrontational method of resolving problems to attempt before combat.

To be fair, Coercion is a non confrontational method of resolving a problem before combat. It's not inherently dark sider to do it.

True, but it generally does earn you Conflict, so for a PC that wants to avoid falling too close to the dark side (or is angling to be a LS Paragon), it's a tactic that should be used sparingly.

Not to mention the Dark Sider is more comfortable with doing icky things such as Coercion, causing Fear and efficiently killing others. Light Siders often want a non confrontational method of resolving problems to attempt before combat.

To be fair, Coercion is a non confrontational method of resolving a problem before combat. It's not inherently dark sider to do it.

True, but it generally does earn you Conflict, so for a PC that wants to avoid falling too close to the dark side (or is angling to be a LS Paragon), it's a tactic that should be used sparingly.

Fair, but the developer who helped make those Guardian talent trees, with the "you gain 1 conflict each session" talents, pointed out that, while it might be a bit shady, it's still a non-violent way to end the conflict, which is generally better than combat.

Side question. Would you consider Luke's bargain with Jabba to be Negotiation or Coercion? I mean, he says things that sound fairly reasonable when he's trying to claim his friends, but his tone is very....not-friendly. Plus there was that line of "It's your choice...but I warn you not to underestimate my powers." It felt very Coercion-y to me now that I think about it.

Fair, but the developer who helped make those Guardian talent trees, with the "you gain 1 conflict each session" talents, pointed out that, while it might be a bit shady, it's still a non-violent way to end the conflict, which is generally better than combat.

Side question. Would you consider Luke's bargain with Jabba to be Negotiation or Coercion? I mean, he says things that sound fairly reasonable when he's trying to claim his friends, but his tone is very....not-friendly. Plus there was that line of "It's your choice...but I warn you not to underestimate my powers." It felt very Coercion-y to me now that I think about it.

I would say it starts out as negotiation.. offering his droids for Solo and the Wookiee, then turns unto coercion "Free us or be destroyed".

Upgrading a Dice Pool is the least interesting and weakest thing anyone can do with a Destiny Point. if your basing this totally on the large amount of the structured rules that talk about upgrading checks then you have missed the critical use... Change the Scene.

DP's let the GM do things without being a Jerk, thats the whole point! Instead of reinforcements arriving to ruin the PC's fun for no reason than "Just Coz" or "Nah, really, i planned it like this" you can look across the table and tell the Players the truth "I think this battle is a little easy and a bit of a flop, it was supposed to be big and climactic, so i'm flipping a Destiny Point over to spice this encounter up a bit. Suddenly 15 gangers crash in through windows, guns up and blazing" Of course once the Players understand this side of things then you don't even need to tell them why your flipping the DP.

Then your going to have a player who needs to access a part of the terrain, or wants a better vantage point, or some solid cover. They flip a DP and wham they get to create something within the world that brings depth to the encounter and enhances the story.

Any way, your game so do whats right for your group, but when you have 10 different house rules to balance all the broken* aspects of the game we will be more than willing to provide some guidance on how we manage to happily play entirely by RAW.

*Broken aspects may include but are not limited to:

• Lightsabers OP
• Auto-Fire OP
• Marauders are OP
• Space Combat too hard
• Vehicle scale weapons vs Personal Scale targets , too much damage
• Move (Seriously 4 ATAT's at Extreme range do how much damage to my inquisitor?)
• Reflect and Parry not like the movies
• The Force is too hard (Zing)
• PC's are OP at 400xp
• PC's have too much stuff
• Starting XP is too low
• Death at double WT?
• Setback Removal Talents really = Gain a Boost
• Two Weapon Fighting is too hard

Actually, no, the GM cannot (and does not need to) expend DP to "Change the Scene" as it were. RAW states DP are used by players to introduce "facts" or context into a scene. The GM freely introduces these things as part of their role as GM.

Golf Clap?

*Broken aspects may include but are not limited to:

• Lightsabers OP Nope
• Auto-Fire OP Nope
• Marauders are OP Nope
• Space Combat too hard Nope
• Vehicle scale weapons vs Personal Scale targets , too much damage Nope
• Move (Seriously 4 ATAT's at Extreme range do how much damage to my inquisitor?) Not sure I understand this one
• Reflect and Parry not like the movies They reflect the thematic presentation of lightsaber use quite well IMHO...SELLING POINT!!!
• The Force is too hard (Zing) Not too hard, too costly for untrained force users to harness their negative emotions to fuel their crazy new superpowers! CONFLICT!!!!
• PC's are OP at 400xp Wow...no...maybe a good starting veteran character
• PC's have too much stuff Nah, I'm Monty Haul, the PCs never have enough stuff!
• Starting XP is too low Not for "fresh off the farm" type characters
• Death at double WT? I don't understand
• Setback Removal Talents really = Gain a Boost I don't understand
• Two Weapon Fighting is too hard Nope

"Magic Beans are supposed to get you something cool, not give you the privilege of suffering mechanical setbacks. Though I would still use them for everything except pip use."

This is where we have different opinions, DP are not "magic beans" or something special that the characters covet. It's the flow of the force. The force reacts to those attuned to it when those attuned bend the force to their will.

I don't see a reason why any character would ever even use DP if you implemented thesee rules, there would literally be no reason to. Most characters can get by with normal duce roles, except force powers.

You should play a campaign and let us know how improved you're game is over ours. Unfortunately you will never understand how the rules are supposed to work. Someone had suggested that you just remove force dice and have them get light side if they are light side and dark side if they are dark side, you might as well do this too because it would be easier for your PCs. Throw out all the dice, we wouldn't want PCS making choices or failing rolls.

Yes, differing opinions. The blanket of fluff DP is draped in has no effect on how they work mechanically...they are magic beans...just like the magic beans in a dozen other RPGs I own. They do the same things as all the other magic beans, positively modify a roll, negatively modify a roll, activate special abilities, and encourage shy players to add to the ongoing narrative. I would eliminate them if I could as modifying rolls with them is boring, but they are used to activate a not-insignificant amount of talents and special abilities...I think the players will want to utilize said talents and special abilities.

Yes...throwing out the dice...that would help.

Just FYI: The strain/Dpoint usage is kinda the mechanic to help prevent overuse of the force, and help apply a possible route of "failure" for using the force (unlike previous systems Morality isn't a punishment system). By eliminating that you're basically giving the player free reign to use the force for everything all the time. Considering what some powers can do, especially with upgrades, this could cause some pretty significant unbalance...

"(unlike previous systems Morality isn't a punishment system)" - Agreed. One of the selling points.

"By eliminating that you're basically giving the player free reign to use the force for everything all the time." - Exactly.

"Considering what some powers can do, especially with upgrades, this could cause some pretty significant unbalance..."- With this system, I don't think so. You can already do it, it just costs more.

It's less an issue of costing more, and more an issue of requiring you manage a resource. Strain and Dpoints should move back and forth over an adventure, but they don't grow on trees, so the expenditure combined with the flipping is what keeps players from spamming force powers. Flip too many pips now, you'll be short of strain needed to fuel Force Talents later. (Remember, the Force in the system isn't just the Powers, its' also the Talents). By extension this also causes some weirdness with the Light/Dark mechanic since one of it's features is adjusting those strain and Dpoint resources, and thus encourages light and dark players to have to consider different builds.

If you do this, initially you won't see a huge issue, and if you're playing a short or low XP game it probably won't matter at all. If you're in it for the long haul, then when the players start getting +1FR talents and force power upgrades, you'll start to see the problem. Having ready access to all the pips on the table will make it a lot easier to activate the more Force Unleashed level force effects often.

Now, if that's what you're going for... have at it. Just be ready to have to start throwing equally over the top opposition at the players, and if everyone in the group isn't going for the over the top force wielder character type, you probably need to consider going RAW to avoid the old "Jedi and his worthless mundane friends that can't do anything" issue previous systems had...

Can you expound on Dark and Light characters needing different builds?

They don't NEED different builds, but if you go RAW, they may want different builds due to XP:Ability economy and the dice mechanics.

I'll try and keep this quick....

OK, when rolling force dice, the odds of getting black pips are 7:12, but the odds of getting 2 black pips are only 1:12. While the odds of rolling white pips are 5:12 but the odds of getting 2 White are 1:4

So, a lightsider will find getting the right pips tough (especially at first) but as they Gain FR will find it easier to get ample pips to fuel his powers. As he becomes a paragon he'll also have extra strain and Dpoints, so flipping a pip here and there won't be a huge deal to him. As a result when it comes time to build, he can go for a focused build with high reliability, or spread out, trading reliability for more options and upgrades. Getting lots of +1FR talents isn't a priority since he can usually make a few FR work for him.

A darksider will usually have the right pips, but the quantity will tend to be less. As he goes on, while he'll have a high WT, his lower ST and reduced starting Dpoint count will make flipping more costly. So to get the same power output of a lightsider the darksider will need a higher FR. As a result Darksiders will probably want to make a more focused, deliberate build, targeting stackable power upgrades, powers that commit instead of roll, and methods of getting +1FRs.

Which does kinda match the films. The Darkside is faster and easier, but not more powerful. Sith tend to be very power focused and good at specific Force things, but also pretty diverse in non-force areas (extra specializations to get those +1FRs=more career skills and talents). Jedi tend to be more broad in the force, able to use all different kinds of powers, but also tend to be less broadly skilled (fewer Specs usually within the same career or UniSpecs) and spend a lot of time worried about their morality score since they make more use of pip flipping.

So, back to your proposed house rule: By making all pips usable without a Dpoint, and mid-grade Morality ignore both Dpoint and Strain, you're going to throw the system out of whack a bit. Darksiders will still have the Strain issues, but as strain is easily recoverable and offsetable with gear, they'll have less issue flipping pips, becoming more powerful and having an easier time picking and choosing the best force combo power-build. Lightsiders will actually become a smidge weaker, as their spare dpoint won't matter, only their strain, which while still limiting isn't as limiting as the Dpoint was when compared to the Darkside. And "grey" will be come the optimal, as it will allow for the force to always work to maximum effect every time at virtually no cost, allowing Grey characters to just spam the force. And that's where you kinda neuter morality too. It takes a lot of conflict to move your morality down significantly (to help keep the player in control of it). By allowing Greys to use the force and pip flip for free, they'll be more likely to gain conflict fast, but as long as they otherwise keep their nose clean (The real conflict blasts come from evil actions, not force usage) then they'll likely float in Grey perpetually without much trying, which is the most beneficial anyway. So the players will be able use the force all the time, for everything, and actually be rewarded for it most of the time.

Like I said, if you're going to run a short/low XP campaign, and everyone is going to be a force user, it'll probably work out ok.

If you're going to run a conventional campaign, or not everyone wants to be a force focused character, you'll have problems as the Jedi will go Super Saiyan and require have the Imperial fleet to even slow down, and the non-forcees will feel like sidekicks of sidekicks.

Thank you for the explanation and advice, much appreciated!

However, as an old rpg guy I like my house rules, back in the day...so...before actually running a game I was thinking of doing this!!!

Why change things just to change things. Try the book as written first, and then make changes.

At least you like the system and so long as you and your group have fun then don't stop

"I would eliminate them if I could as modifying rolls with them is boring, but they are used to activate a not-insignificant amount of talents and special abilities...I think the players will want to utilize said talents and special abilities."

Just take out DP, and have no cost for those talents. If force powers are too costly with them, wouldn't those abilities be too costly as well?

*Broken aspects may include but are not limited to:

• Lightsabers OP Nope
• Auto-Fire OP Nope
• Marauders are OP Nope
• Space Combat too hard Nope
• Vehicle scale weapons vs Personal Scale targets , too much damage Nope
• Move (Seriously 4 ATAT's at Extreme range do how much damage to my inquisitor?) Not sure I understand this one
• Reflect and Parry not like the movies They reflect the thematic presentation of lightsaber use quite well IMHO...SELLING POINT!!!
• The Force is too hard (Zing) Not too hard, too costly for untrained force users to harness their negative emotions to fuel their crazy new superpowers! CONFLICT!!!!
• PC's are OP at 400xp Wow...no...maybe a good starting veteran character
• PC's have too much stuff Nah, I'm Monty Haul, the PCs never have enough stuff!
• Starting XP is too low Not for "fresh off the farm" type characters
• Death at double WT? I don't understand
• Setback Removal Talents really = Gain a Boost I don't understand
• Two Weapon Fighting is too hard Nope

Auto-Fire OP Nope

If a player min/maxes with autofire in mind it actually can become a problem.

Marauders are OP Nope

Again, if you min/max, you will see some issues, especially when combined with Doctor.

Vehicle scale weapons vs Personal Scale targets , too much damage Nope

It is a problem if the GM doesn't make an effort to rope it in, and/or know how to manage it. If you're running a conventional planned adventure it shouldn't be much of an issue, if you're more sandboxy and just let the players do whatever... you may have to take steps.

Move (Seriously 4 ATAT's at Extreme range do how much damage to my inquisitor?) Not sure I understand this one

Also a bit of a min/max issue. If you totally max out the Move force tree and focus on pumping up discipline and your FR you can (for 4 pips) chuck four Sil 4 objects at a single target doing 40 damage per hit. Of course you'll be looking at around 300XP spent to do one specific thing... but it's a heck of a thing.

PC's are OP at 400xp Wow...no...maybe a good starting veteran character

See Min/Max. Toss 400XP at a player and they'll be able to min/max some stupid powerful options out of the gate. FFG suggests +150 as a good veteran starting cap, as that gives plenty of options, isn't so much you can totally min/max (unless you're actively trying to) but still leaves you soft enough that gaining XP is a motivator for adventure.

Death at double WT? I don't understand

This is one of those things that's not true, but some people think it is. Every time a character takes wounds that exceed their threshold they take a crit and go unconscious. When their wounds get to double their threshold, you stop counting (but still apply crits.) Some people assume you die. You don't, you just stop counting and get crits. Now... if you keep taking Crits, eventually you will get "you die" as a crit... and yeah, then you're dead. NPCs are of course dead when the GM says they are dead, but this means that for players, only weapons with Vicious, attack from characters with Lethal Blows, and aggravated damage (fire/acid/vacuum) are really likely to kill them.

Setback Removal Talents really = Gain a Boost I don't understand

Some people don't toss enough setbacks at their players, so they count talent that remove a setback as adding a boost instead.

Wait a second...

This is the Force and Destiny forum.

Why have several people complained about my house rule turning it into an "Adventures of Glowstick Guy and his Useless Friends" kinda game?

All of the classes in F&D come with FR 1.

Might be "Adventures of the Glowstick Gang and their wacky buddy Steve" kinda game more likely...if I were to even allow classes outside F&D.

Steve will be warned...

*Broken aspects may include but are not limited to:

• Lightsabers OP Nope
• Auto-Fire OP Nope
• Marauders are OP Nope
• Space Combat too hard Nope
• Vehicle scale weapons vs Personal Scale targets , too much damage Nope
• Move (Seriously 4 ATAT's at Extreme range do how much damage to my inquisitor?) Not sure I understand this one
• Reflect and Parry not like the movies They reflect the thematic presentation of lightsaber use quite well IMHO...SELLING POINT!!!
• The Force is too hard (Zing) Not too hard, too costly for untrained force users to harness their negative emotions to fuel their crazy new superpowers! CONFLICT!!!!
• PC's are OP at 400xp Wow...no...maybe a good starting veteran character
• PC's have too much stuff Nah, I'm Monty Haul, the PCs never have enough stuff!
• Starting XP is too low Not for "fresh off the farm" type characters
• Death at double WT? I don't understand
• Setback Removal Talents really = Gain a Boost I don't understand
• Two Weapon Fighting is too hard Nope

Auto-Fire OP Nope

If a player min/maxes with autofire in mind it actually can become a problem.

Marauders are OP Nope

Again, if you min/max, you will see some issues, especially when combined with Doctor.

Vehicle scale weapons vs Personal Scale targets , too much damage Nope

It is a problem if the GM doesn't make an effort to rope it in, and/or know how to manage it. If you're running a conventional planned adventure it shouldn't be much of an issue, if you're more sandboxy and just let the players do whatever... you may have to take steps.

Move (Seriously 4 ATAT's at Extreme range do how much damage to my inquisitor?) Not sure I understand this one

Also a bit of a min/max issue. If you totally max out the Move force tree and focus on pumping up discipline and your FR you can (for 4 pips) chuck four Sil 4 objects at a single target doing 40 damage per hit. Of course you'll be looking at around 300XP spent to do one specific thing... but it's a heck of a thing.

PC's are OP at 400xp Wow...no...maybe a good starting veteran character

See Min/Max. Toss 400XP at a player and they'll be able to min/max some stupid powerful options out of the gate. FFG suggests +150 as a good veteran starting cap, as that gives plenty of options, isn't so much you can totally min/max (unless you're actively trying to) but still leaves you soft enough that gaining XP is a motivator for adventure.

Death at double WT? I don't understand

This is one of those things that's not true, but some people think it is. Every time a character takes wounds that exceed their threshold they take a crit and go unconscious. When their wounds get to double their threshold, you stop counting (but still apply crits.) Some people assume you die. You don't, you just stop counting and get crits. Now... if you keep taking Crits, eventually you will get "you die" as a crit... and yeah, then you're dead. NPCs are of course dead when the GM says they are dead, but this means that for players, only weapons with Vicious, attack from characters with Lethal Blows, and aggravated damage (fire/acid/vacuum) are really likely to kill them.

Setback Removal Talents really = Gain a Boost I don't understand

Some people don't toss enough setbacks at their players, so they count talent that remove a setback as adding a boost instead.

Min/Max is no matter, the PCs can be blasted from orbit if need be.

Yeah...gotta remember the setback...been constantly thought-projecting ways to narrate it's use.

Wait a second...

This is the Force and Destiny forum.

Why have several people complained about my house rule turning it into an "Adventures of Glowstick Guy and his Useless Friends" kinda game?

All of the classes in F&D come with FR 1.

Might be "Adventures of the Glowstick Gang and their wacky buddy Steve" kinda game more likely...if I were to even allow classes outside F&D.

Steve will be warned...

Because many people play this game in conjunction with EotE and AoR.

But since you've proven to not really care what other people have to say about your craptastic notion for a house rule to turn Force and Destiny into Force Unleashed the RPG, you can safely proceed in your general ignorance.

You started a thread asking if something was a good idea, multiple people responded that "no, it's not a good idea, and in fact is bad idea that's asking for trouble," to which your response can be summed up as "screw you all, I do what I want!"

Zarion, you're probably not a bad guy, but although Donovan puts it a tad harshly, I have to agree with him.

Maybe it's just the way you come across - all loud and 'edgy edgelord'... If you say upfront you don't care what others think and answer 'nah' to valid critiques, what do you expect?

I don't like seeing new posters get dogpiled, but when they charge in with broken house rules and insist 'this game sucks!' they don't really have anyone else to blame.

I make changes to the game, sure, but I tinker with the mechanics at my own peril. I do so only when I've tried it the official way, decided after playtesting it's not doing what I want and there's a narrative reason to change it to match the lore of my campaign, and when it's been discussed with the players.

Coming in and saying 'this sucks and my overpowered house rules are better and I don't care what you think!' isn't the best way to make yourself welcome.

You are under no compulsion to follow our advice, but people who have been playing for two years plus do know something about how the game works.

And if you post on a public forum then you have to expect people will respond. Donovan's initial reply to you was perfectly civil, but people get annoyed when someone starts acting up after being given good advice.

Game Breaking? Pure Lunacy?!?!? Good Idea?

After reading over the proposed changes, I have this carefully considered response: that is f'ing stupid. House ruling a deficiency in the rules, coming from an informed decision making process? I have no issue with. Changing things just for giggles is simply f'ing stupid. Why stop there? You might as well rip all the pages out of your book and staple them back in a random order!

I don't see how a minor change to DP and Strain rules could possibly prevent "mundanes" from contributing meaningfully to the campaign

Changing force usage from a uncertain thing to an automatic success is not a "minor" change.

So why are you even posting?

You're not looking for help or advice, as is pretty clear from your topic title.

Well, how else are we going to know how awesome and edgy this guy is if he doesn't tell us?

My personal house rule that works well is no need for morality check if spending less of opposing force pips than the ones you can spend. So if you spend 3 light and one dark no risk for morality. Only exception is if act is in fact requiring a check.

I already gave it a "like," but honestly I want to give some props to GhostOfMan for his elaborate and diplomatic answer. Like most folks here, I disagree with Zarion's proposed house rule, but there seems to be a lot more rancor than necessary (even one rancor is too many, right guys? Right? I'll be here all week!).

Okay, let's hit this point-by-point.

1. Light Side Force Users (Morality 70-100) do not need to spend a Destiny Point when using [black dot] to power stuff.

Okay, this doesn't bother me much. I have a small group, like some other folks here, and for a small group, a DP is a steeper cost, even if you're trying to keep them going back and forth. I haven't decided yet, but I might drop the DP cost and up the Strain, like someone else said.

2. Light Side Force Users (Morality 31-69) do not need to spend a Destiny Point, nor suffer Strain, when using [black dot] to power stuff.

Woah-ho! Slow down there Tex! This leaves Conflict as the only cost of using Dark pips. Yes, it will keep someone from hitting "Paragon" very quickly, but that's not everyone's goal. I have a lot of characters in my head, just in case someone else wants to GM this game. Ever. And not leave it all to me every time. You ingrates! Not a single one of them would really be on the path to Light Side Paragon. They'd be good guys, sure, but not above nefarious means, you know? And there are a lot of other people out there who want to play "grey" force users. I tell ya, we'd be hitting those black pips almost every single time. Sure we'll get Conflict, but if we've behaved ourselves this session, we would have no reason not to unleash every bit of hell we could manage when the Jawas hit the fan.

3. Dark Side Force Users (Morality 0-30) do not need to spend a Destiny Point when using [white dot] to power stuff.

So, my understanding is that Dark Side PCs still flip the DP for Dark Pips, but take Strain for White Pips. So for a Dark Side PC, there's always a cost. Actually, is that right? How does it work with Light Side "bad guy" NPCs? Someone wanna weigh in here?

EDIT: Also, regarding folks making house rules before really playing. Yeah, it's usually a good idea, but I can think of a couple cases where a game rule is just unacceptable for my mind to even consider (I'm looking at you, The One Ring weapon skills).

So, my understanding is that Dark Side PCs still flip the DP for Dark Pips, but take Strain for White Pips. So for a Dark Side PC, there's always a cost. Actually, is that right? How does it work with Light Side "bad guy" NPCs? Someone wanna weigh in here?

Once a character reaches 29 morality his force dice are "flipped". Which means he can use dark side pups as regular force (still getting the conflict) and only need to use DP and strain when using lightside pips.

You remain a dark side user until you are 71 morality, in which you are "flipped" back to light side force dice.

I play every NPC has a morality (normally 0, 50, or 100 for simplicity) and there for need to use the same rules for PCs. Most "grey" force users to me are light side, while any red lightSaber wielding NPC follows dark side rules.

Tho this my be confusing because as a GM I can only spend dark side DP. So even if a light side user attempts a force roll, they take the strain and DP flip for dark side pips. Unless they are a recurring character I don't track morality.

I already gave it a "like," but honestly I want to give some props to GhostOfMan for his elaborate and diplomatic answer. Like most folks here, I disagree with Zarion's proposed house rule, but there seems to be a lot more rancor than necessary (even one rancor is too many, right guys? Right? I'll be here all week!).

You are right - the world is a bitter and nasty enough place without people flipping out in a virtual arena and treating others badly. However, this thread really is the equivalent of rolling a grenade into the room and closing the door. It starts off with a new person with a pretty arrogant "I know better than the devs without even playing!", quickly moves into a "Screw you guys, I know better than you too" before Zarion fades away like a ninja fart in a windstorm when we don't fall all over ourselves praising his awesomeness. This is, by all definitions, a classic trolling maneuver.

I guess I'm an old internet fogie, but what ever happened to easing yourself into a community slowly instead of making flashy and clueless threads?