Anyway...

After being inspired to purchase nearly the entire collection of FFG Star Wars books last weekend and then devouring the content of those books I have come to the conclusion that I like this game. It is beautiful to look at, and IMHO well put together as a system.

However, as an old rpg guy I like my house rules, back in the day...so...before actually running a game I was thinking of doing this!!!

1. Light Side Force Users (Morality 70-100) do not need to spend a Destiny Point when using [black dot] to power stuff.

2. Light Side Force Users (Morality 31-69) do not need to spend a Destiny Point, nor suffer Strain, when using [black dot] to power stuff.

3. Dark Side Force Users (Morality 0-30) do not need to spend a Destiny Point when using [white dot] to power stuff.

Because Reasons!

Game Breaking? Pure Lunacy?!?!? Good Idea?

Why not just say that the force power goes off with 1 to max force of the wielder and skip rolling the dice. Hell why stop with the force die. Any one can use uncancelled failures as successes and uncancelled threats as advantages.....

Personally, your better learning on how to walk before you run with this system, as what your suggesting is "if your a good or evil paragon, you can use both sides of the force no problem. I personally like to use good Emerald Lightning to power orphanages, it's Force Lightning, only good.". A bit of bonkers is good but I like to extend that to the sessions rather then going completely bonkers with the rules off the bat. Otherwise you don't understand the game.

Personally one good house rule I would like to adopt is that it shouldn't cost any strain to use Dark pips. So when you flip that destiny point your letting loose with the full power of your emotions! That also makes it much more tempting to just let the temptation consume the player. Either that or allow them to do it; just make notes of any conflict they spend from letting the force fly on a loose leash.

Personally, your better learning on how to walk before you run with this system, as what your suggesting is "if your a good or evil paragon, you can use both sides of the force no problem. I personally like to use good Emerald Lightning to power orphanages, it's Force Lightning, only good.". A bit of bonkers is good but I like to extend that to the sessions rather then going completely bonkers with the rules off the bat. Otherwise you don't understand the game.

Personally one good house rule I would like to adopt is that it shouldn't cost any strain to use Dark pips. So when you flip that destiny point your letting loose with the full power of your emotions! That also makes it much more tempting to just let the temptation consume the player. Either that or allow them to do it; just make notes of any conflict they spend from letting the force fly on a loose leash.

I know what you mean with your house rule, and I've been tempted to do similar. Though I'm leaning more towards the not flipping a DP to use 'the other side of the Force' (depending whichever side you currently lie on), but keep the acquisition of Strain in regards to the emotional state the character might be in or the emotions caused by the situation they're in. But at the moment I'm keeping with RAW.

Just FYI: The strain/Dpoint usage is kinda the mechanic to help prevent overuse of the force, and help apply a possible route of "failure" for using the force (unlike previous systems Morality isn't a punishment system). By eliminating that you're basically giving the player free reign to use the force for everything all the time. Considering what some powers can do, especially with upgrades, this could cause some pretty significant unbalance...

Just FYI: The strain/Dpoint usage is kinda the mechanic to help prevent overuse of the force, and help apply a possible route of "failure" for using the force (unlike previous systems Morality isn't a punishment system). By eliminating that you're basically giving the player free reign to use the force for everything all the time. Considering what some powers can do, especially with upgrades, this could cause some pretty significant unbalance...

This is a good point. A lot of powers would simply just succeed if there was no resource tied to it like strain or a DP. Of course, there's still Conflict, but some player types may not find that particularly bothersome.

Any gamer with half a clue knows that the first thing you do before introducing house-rules is that you play the game Rules As Written to see if the things that look problematic actually are problems.

Too many people have tried to "fix" things that aren't actually broken, and often wind up breaking the game.

Compared to prior Star Wars RPGs, the Force in this system actually works pretty well by RAW, with Conflict not being nearly as punitive as some players and GMs have concluded; much of that is equating Conflict to the Dark Side Points used in prior Star Wars RPGs, when that really isn't the case.

Going by the films, we really don't see the Force being spammed non-stop; that's more of a video game cliche where the main character is burning "mana" to fuel their powers, in effect treating the Force as magic with a different name. FFG opted to hew much closer to the films in regards to Force usage, namely that spamming Force powers isn't going to be your best course of option in the early going; playing a Force wizard is much harder here than it was in any of the D20 SW games.

This also helps avert problems for when you've got PCs that don't want to play Force users but would rather play folks like Poe Dameron, Finn, Chewbacca, Han Solo, R2-D2, Leia Organa, or Lando Calrissian. By making it more difficult to use the Force in the early stages of the game, FFG allows for the mundanes to still be able to contribute meaningfully to the adventure, and to stay competitive from the start of the campaign all the way to the eventual end.

1. Light Side Force Users (Morality 70-100) do not need to spend a Destiny Point when using [black dot] to power stuff.

2. Light Side Force Users (Morality 31-69) do not need to spend a Destiny Point, nor suffer Strain, when using [black dot] to power stuff.

3. Dark Side Force Users (Morality 0-30) do not need to spend a Destiny Point when using [white dot] to power stuff.

You missed a category of Force User

4. Dark Side Force User (Morality 31-69)

But as others have said in various ways you should absolutely play the game as raw first. Please don't draw conclusions on how the Force works until you have PC's (or NPC's) with a Force Rating of 3+ too, the extra dice make using the force much more reliable.

Generally speaking PC's with FR 1/2 get a lot more out of that die by committing their die to gain an ongoing benefit (Sense, Seek and Enhance being the obvious options). Next best is to be adding the Force Dice to regular skill checks to be able to add Success/Advantage, it lets them have more control of the outcome of a check and getting a more desirable effect (Foresee, Enhance and Influence). there are also some talents that can be used in these ways to good effect.

Why not just say that the force power goes off with 1 to max force of the wielder and skip rolling the dice. Hell why stop with the force die. Any one can use uncancelled failures as successes and uncancelled threats as advantages.....

?

Personally, your better learning on how to walk before you run with this system, as what your suggesting is "if your a good or evil paragon, you can use both sides of the force no problem. I personally like to use good Emerald Lightning to power orphanages, it's Force Lightning, only good.". A bit of bonkers is good but I like to extend that to the sessions rather then going completely bonkers with the rules off the bat. Otherwise you don't understand the game.

Personally one good house rule I would like to adopt is that it shouldn't cost any strain to use Dark pips. So when you flip that destiny point your letting loose with the full power of your emotions! That also makes it much more tempting to just let the temptation consume the player. Either that or allow them to do it; just make notes of any conflict they spend from letting the force fly on a loose leash.

"Personally, your better learning on how to walk before you run with this system, as what your suggesting is "if your a good or evil paragon, you can use both sides of the force no problem." - Light Side Paragon would suffer Strain to use [black dot] and Dark Side Paragon would suffer Strain to use [white dot]...so...if problem = mechanical cost...then...no. I do want to make it easier to use The Force, not just Light or Dark.

"I personally like to use good Emerald Lightning to power orphanages, it's Force Lightning, only good.". A bit of bonkers is good but I like to extend that to the sessions rather then going completely bonkers with the rules off the bat." - I don't understand.

"Personally one good house rule I would like to adopt is that it shouldn't cost any strain to use Dark pips. So when you flip that destiny point your letting loose with the full power of your emotions! That also makes it much more tempting to just let the temptation consume the player. Either that or allow them to do it; just make notes of any conflict they spend from letting the force fly on a loose leash." - In a nutshell...YES!!! The Dark Side is supposed to be easy and tempting, the DP and Strain cost makes it much less so.

Personally, your better learning on how to walk before you run with this system, as what your suggesting is "if your a good or evil paragon, you can use both sides of the force no problem. I personally like to use good Emerald Lightning to power orphanages, it's Force Lightning, only good.". A bit of bonkers is good but I like to extend that to the sessions rather then going completely bonkers with the rules off the bat. Otherwise you don't understand the game.

Personally one good house rule I would like to adopt is that it shouldn't cost any strain to use Dark pips. So when you flip that destiny point your letting loose with the full power of your emotions! That also makes it much more tempting to just let the temptation consume the player. Either that or allow them to do it; just make notes of any conflict they spend from letting the force fly on a loose leash.

I know what you mean with your house rule, and I've been tempted to do similar. Though I'm leaning more towards the not flipping a DP to use 'the other side of the Force' (depending whichever side you currently lie on), but keep the acquisition of Strain in regards to the emotional state the character might be in or the emotions caused by the situation they're in. But at the moment I'm keeping with RAW.

I really don't like the DP cost.

Just FYI: The strain/Dpoint usage is kinda the mechanic to help prevent overuse of the force, and help apply a possible route of "failure" for using the force (unlike previous systems Morality isn't a punishment system). By eliminating that you're basically giving the player free reign to use the force for everything all the time. Considering what some powers can do, especially with upgrades, this could cause some pretty significant unbalance...

"(unlike previous systems Morality isn't a punishment system)" - Agreed. One of the selling points.

"By eliminating that you're basically giving the player free reign to use the force for everything all the time." - Exactly.

"Considering what some powers can do, especially with upgrades, this could cause some pretty significant unbalance..."- With this system, I don't think so. You can already do it, it just costs more.

Just FYI: The strain/Dpoint usage is kinda the mechanic to help prevent overuse of the force, and help apply a possible route of "failure" for using the force (unlike previous systems Morality isn't a punishment system). By eliminating that you're basically giving the player free reign to use the force for everything all the time. Considering what some powers can do, especially with upgrades, this could cause some pretty significant unbalance...

This is a good point. A lot of powers would simply just succeed if there was no resource tied to it like strain or a DP. Of course, there's still Conflict, but some player types may not find that particularly bothersome.

I want the use of the Force to always succeed. The RAW even says it does.

Any gamer with half a clue knows that the first thing you do before introducing house-rules is that you play the game Rules As Written to see if the things that look problematic actually are problems.

Too many people have tried to "fix" things that aren't actually broken, and often wind up breaking the game.

Compared to prior Star Wars RPGs, the Force in this system actually works pretty well by RAW, with Conflict not being nearly as punitive as some players and GMs have concluded; much of that is equating Conflict to the Dark Side Points used in prior Star Wars RPGs, when that really isn't the case.

Going by the films, we really don't see the Force being spammed non-stop; that's more of a video game cliche where the main character is burning "mana" to fuel their powers, in effect treating the Force as magic with a different name. FFG opted to hew much closer to the films in regards to Force usage, namely that spamming Force powers isn't going to be your best course of option in the early going; playing a Force wizard is much harder here than it was in any of the D20 SW games.

This also helps avert problems for when you've got PCs that don't want to play Force users but would rather play folks like Poe Dameron, Finn, Chewbacca, Han Solo, R2-D2, Leia Organa, or Lando Calrissian. By making it more difficult to use the Force in the early stages of the game, FFG allows for the mundanes to still be able to contribute meaningfully to the adventure, and to stay competitive from the start of the campaign all the way to the eventual end.

"Any gamer with half a clue knows that the first thing you do before introducing house-rules is that you play the game Rules As Written to see if the things that look problematic actually are problems." - Years and years ago maybe, but I'm past that stage.

"Too many people have tried to "fix" things that aren't actually broken, and often wind up breaking the game." - Not trying to fix anything. Trying to change the way the mechanics reflect the thematic elements of force use as presented in Star Wars media for the last 30 years.

"Compared to prior Star Wars RPGs, the Force in this system actually works pretty well by RAW, with Conflict not being nearly as punitive as some players and GMs have concluded; much of that is equating Conflict to the Dark Side Points used in prior Star Wars RPGs, when that really isn't the case." - Not equating, by any means, it's not WEG. The way [black dot], Conflict, and Morality interact is a selling point.

"Going by the films, we really don't see the Force being spammed non-stop; that's more of a video game cliche where the main character is burning "mana" to fuel their powers, in effect treating the Force as magic with a different name. FFG opted to hew much closer to the films in regards to Force usage, namely that spamming Force powers isn't going to be your best course of option in the early going; playing a Force wizard is much harder here than it was in any of the D20 SW games." - Yeah D20 was terrible.

"This also helps avert problems for when you've got PCs that don't want to play Force users but would rather play folks like Poe Dameron, Finn, Chewbacca, Han Solo, R2-D2, Leia Organa, or Lando Calrissian. By making it more difficult to use the Force in the early stages of the game, FFG allows for the mundanes to still be able to contribute meaningfully to the adventure, and to stay competitive from the start of the campaign all the way to the eventual end." - I don't see how a minor change to DP and Strain rules could possibly prevent "mundanes" from contributing meaningfully to the campaign.

1. Light Side Force Users (Morality 70-100) do not need to spend a Destiny Point when using [black dot] to power stuff.

2. Light Side Force Users (Morality 31-69) do not need to spend a Destiny Point, nor suffer Strain, when using [black dot] to power stuff.

3. Dark Side Force Users (Morality 0-30) do not need to spend a Destiny Point when using [white dot] to power stuff.

You missed a category of Force User

4. Dark Side Force User (Morality 31-69)

But as others have said in various ways you should absolutely play the game as raw first. Please don't draw conclusions on how the Force works until you have PC's (or NPC's) with a Force Rating of 3+ too, the extra dice make using the force much more reliable.

Generally speaking PC's with FR 1/2 get a lot more out of that die by committing their die to gain an ongoing benefit (Sense, Seek and Enhance being the obvious options). Next best is to be adding the Force Dice to regular skill checks to be able to add Success/Advantage, it lets them have more control of the outcome of a check and getting a more desirable effect (Foresee, Enhance and Influence). there are also some talents that can be used in these ways to good effect.

"But as others have said in various ways you should absolutely play the game as raw first." - Nah.

So why are you even posting?

You're not looking for help or advice, as is pretty clear from your topic title.

You're going to do whatever you want and ignore any advice, so just go and do it.

I don't personally see why people are so bothered by the strain cost and DP cost. There's always plenty of both available at my table, and a DP flip is just an upgrade for the GM.

Predicting a "Why is Move so powerful, my pc's toss AT-ST's every round" thread in 6 months when the PC's have FR 4 and can reliably get 5-6 pips every roll with no hard line to actually stop them.

Predicting a "Why is Move so powerful, my pc's toss AT-ST's every round" thread in 6 months when the PC's have FR 4 and can reliably get 5-6 pips every roll with no hard line to actually stop them.

I think this is it - it's tough to start with, but when you get 3, 4, 5 FD, it can get reliable pretty quickly.

I think that's something I like about the system at low levels - someone with FD 2 can chuck around YT1300s or ATATs, but they cannot always do it reliably.

In this game the Force is powerful - way beyond what we see in the movies - but it can be tougher to use, especially to begin with.

As Donovan mentions, it's one of the things that stops the game being 'The Adventures of Glowstick Guy and His Mundane Sidekicks' like most other SW RPGs.

Any gamer with half a clue

I think you've hit the nail on the head there in the first six words

@zarion, it's your game and your table, you can do what you like, but messing with this is likely to upset the balance of the game.

Every so often we get a thread that says something like 'I've never even played the game but I'm going to start all the PCs with stats of 5 or 6' and we point out that this will completely wreck the game balance. Same with all the people who handwave Rarity and cost and encumbrance, and wonder why their fights are unbalanced when everyone has tricked-out gear.

Just FYI: The strain/Dpoint usage is kinda the mechanic to help prevent overuse of the force, and help apply a possible route of "failure" for using the force (unlike previous systems Morality isn't a punishment system). By eliminating that you're basically giving the player free reign to use the force for everything all the time. Considering what some powers can do, especially with upgrades, this could cause some pretty significant unbalance...

"(unlike previous systems Morality isn't a punishment system)" - Agreed. One of the selling points.

"By eliminating that you're basically giving the player free reign to use the force for everything all the time." - Exactly.

"Considering what some powers can do, especially with upgrades, this could cause some pretty significant unbalance..."- With this system, I don't think so. You can already do it, it just costs more.

It's less an issue of costing more, and more an issue of requiring you manage a resource. Strain and Dpoints should move back and forth over an adventure, but they don't grow on trees, so the expenditure combined with the flipping is what keeps players from spamming force powers. Flip too many pips now, you'll be short of strain needed to fuel Force Talents later. (Remember, the Force in the system isn't just the Powers, its' also the Talents). By extension this also causes some weirdness with the Light/Dark mechanic since one of it's features is adjusting those strain and Dpoint resources, and thus encourages light and dark players to have to consider different builds.

If you do this, initially you won't see a huge issue, and if you're playing a short or low XP game it probably won't matter at all. If you're in it for the long haul, then when the players start getting +1FR talents and force power upgrades, you'll start to see the problem. Having ready access to all the pips on the table will make it a lot easier to activate the more Force Unleashed level force effects often.

Now, if that's what you're going for... have at it. Just be ready to have to start throwing equally over the top opposition at the players, and if everyone in the group isn't going for the over the top force wielder character type, you probably need to consider going RAW to avoid the old "Jedi and his worthless mundane friends that can't do anything" issue previous systems had...

"But as others have said in various ways you should absolutely play the game as raw first." - Nah.

So why are you even posting?

You're not looking for help or advice, as is pretty clear from your topic title.

You're going to do whatever you want and ignore any advice, so just go and do it.

I don't personally see why people are so bothered by the strain cost and DP cost. There's always plenty of both available at my table, and a DP flip is just an upgrade for the GM.

I'm thinking the thread is a gag.

I don't personally see why people are so bothered by the strain cost and DP cost. There's always plenty of both available at my table, and a DP flip is just an upgrade for the GM.

Well, for my group, we just don't have large DP pools. I've got 2 players, and they roll so low on the DP pool at the start, that I did a house rule where the GM rolls as well, just to give us a bigger pool to play with. And we still hardly ever use it. They don't really think about using them much, and I personally have an issue with randomly making the roll harder like that, given the way I build my challenge pools. I feel they are appropriate as is, and suddenly going "Oh, yeah add another red in there" just feels like a "Jerk GM" move to me. So I'm less inclined to do it. Which means I'm not flipping them much, and the players aren't flipping them much, so, they just don't get flipped.

Normally this isn't a big deal, but it actually seriously impacted a major scene with my players. I had them in the center of a Dark Side nexus, fighting a powerful Dark Side user. They were already under penalties from darkness, and failing the very hard Fear check being in that place, and the Nemesis had Rivalry 2. The deck was stacked against them enough as it was. To make it any harder, would basically be me saying "No, Thou Shalt Not Succeed At This Roll". So the Padawan, tried to use a Force power, and rolled only dark pips. He was all set to use it, and it made sense, for him to give in at that moment, in that place, but the player said "Well, I can't use that power" "*blink* What do you mean? Sure you can, just take the conflict and strain." "No, I don't have a light side DP to flip, I can't use the power at all" "...... O_O crap."

So, for us, we did away with it, and just boosted the strain cost +1. It's worked out well so far. One, it's made using the Dark Side pips more tempting, being quicker, easier, more seductive. And Two, it's removed the necessity to use a mechanic that we just simply don't bother with much.

For larger groups, who have Destiny Point pools of 8+ this might not be an issue. But for a group that has 2-3 DP pool regularly, it alleviates the need to constantly be flipping them, just to make sure they have the resource.

Zarion, why do YOU as a GM not like the cost of the DP? You do understand that you as a GM use the dark side of the DP. This opens up a flow of the force. PCs use the force in dark ways the darkness comes back to them. If you understand karma, this system is a force version of karma.

If a PC has to tap into the dark side of the force to say influence a stormtrooper into believing these aren't the Droids you're looking for, that ripple in the force comes back to them. You could then say that the guy at the bar wants to pick a fight and use the dark side DP to increase his strength.

Maybe they still would have fought if the PC didn't use the dark side of the force but at that point the PC could use a social check and upgrade it with at light side DP they didn't have to use in an earlier force power.

I think once you play, you will see how the Destiny point system can tie a lot events together and make for some interesting situations.

Question for you tho, if you don't want your PCs to use DP on force powers, how do you expect them to use them? How would you use them?

I have to wonder why the OP doesn't like spending DP's. Destiny points flow so freely in our games that it's rarely an issue, but it does add a bit of strategy to the back and forth. Players who think they may have a "must succeed" force situation coming up need to preserve at least one destiny point.

Anyway, my two bits. It's a bad idea. You'll throw off the balance mechanics for using The Force, which work pretty well. Try it as written before you start tweaking rules.

"But as others have said in various ways you should absolutely play the game as raw first." - Nah.

So why are you even posting?

You're not looking for help or advice, as is pretty clear from your topic title.

You're going to do whatever you want and ignore any advice, so just go and do it.

I don't personally see why people are so bothered by the strain cost and DP cost. There's always plenty of both available at my table, and a DP flip is just an upgrade for the GM.

He's posting because he wants to be cool by telling us all off and showing how radical he is by not listening to anyone. He's gonna stick it to the man by ignoring everyones advice because ultimately his 2 days of reading is better than anyone elses actual play experience!!!

Yeah!!! Stick it to the MANNNN!!!

Just FYI: The strain/Dpoint usage is kinda the mechanic to help prevent overuse of the force, and help apply a possible route of "failure" for using the force (unlike previous systems Morality isn't a punishment system). By eliminating that you're basically giving the player free reign to use the force for everything all the time. Considering what some powers can do, especially with upgrades, this could cause some pretty significant unbalance...

"(unlike previous systems Morality isn't a punishment system)" - Agreed. One of the selling points.

"By eliminating that you're basically giving the player free reign to use the force for everything all the time." - Exactly.

"Considering what some powers can do, especially with upgrades, this could cause some pretty significant unbalance..."- With this system, I don't think so. You can already do it, it just costs more.

It's less an issue of costing more, and more an issue of requiring you manage a resource. Strain and Dpoints should move back and forth over an adventure, but they don't grow on trees, so the expenditure combined with the flipping is what keeps players from spamming force powers. Flip too many pips now, you'll be short of strain needed to fuel Force Talents later. (Remember, the Force in the system isn't just the Powers, its' also the Talents). By extension this also causes some weirdness with the Light/Dark mechanic since one of it's features is adjusting those strain and Dpoint resources, and thus encourages light and dark players to have to consider different builds.

If you do this, initially you won't see a huge issue, and if you're playing a short or low XP game it probably won't matter at all. If you're in it for the long haul, then when the players start getting +1FR talents and force power upgrades, you'll start to see the problem. Having ready access to all the pips on the table will make it a lot easier to activate the more Force Unleashed level force effects often.

Now, if that's what you're going for... have at it. Just be ready to have to start throwing equally over the top opposition at the players, and if everyone in the group isn't going for the over the top force wielder character type, you probably need to consider going RAW to avoid the old "Jedi and his worthless mundane friends that can't do anything" issue previous systems had...

Can you expound on Dark and Light characters needing different builds?

I don't personally see why people are so bothered by the strain cost and DP cost. There's always plenty of both available at my table, and a DP flip is just an upgrade for the GM.

Well, for my group, we just don't have large DP pools. I've got 2 players, and they roll so low on the DP pool at the start, that I did a house rule where the GM rolls as well, just to give us a bigger pool to play with. And we still hardly ever use it. They don't really think about using them much, and I personally have an issue with randomly making the roll harder like that, given the way I build my challenge pools. I feel they are appropriate as is, and suddenly going "Oh, yeah add another red in there" just feels like a "Jerk GM" move to me. So I'm less inclined to do it. Which means I'm not flipping them much, and the players aren't flipping them much, so, they just don't get flipped.

Normally this isn't a big deal, but it actually seriously impacted a major scene with my players. I had them in the center of a Dark Side nexus, fighting a powerful Dark Side user. They were already under penalties from darkness, and failing the very hard Fear check being in that place, and the Nemesis had Rivalry 2. The deck was stacked against them enough as it was. To make it any harder, would basically be me saying "No, Thou Shalt Not Succeed At This Roll". So the Padawan, tried to use a Force power, and rolled only dark pips. He was all set to use it, and it made sense, for him to give in at that moment, in that place, but the player said "Well, I can't use that power" "*blink* What do you mean? Sure you can, just take the conflict and strain." "No, I don't have a light side DP to flip, I can't use the power at all" "...... O_O crap."

So, for us, we did away with it, and just boosted the strain cost +1. It's worked out well so far. One, it's made using the Dark Side pips more tempting, being quicker, easier, more seductive. And Two, it's removed the necessity to use a mechanic that we just simply don't bother with much.

For larger groups, who have Destiny Point pools of 8+ this might not be an issue. But for a group that has 2-3 DP pool regularly, it alleviates the need to constantly be flipping them, just to make sure they have the resource.

Yes, having a PC unable to use [black dot] during a critical moment in a scene simply because there are no DP to spend would be a tragic dismantling of the ongoing narrative by a metagame mechanic. My biggest worry with the RAW. Thank you for the advice.

Zarion, why do YOU as a GM not like the cost of the DP? You do understand that you as a GM use the dark side of the DP. This opens up a flow of the force. PCs use the force in dark ways the darkness comes back to them. If you understand karma, this system is a force version of karma.

If a PC has to tap into the dark side of the force to say influence a stormtrooper into believing these aren't the Droids you're looking for, that ripple in the force comes back to them. You could then say that the guy at the bar wants to pick a fight and use the dark side DP to increase his strength.

Maybe they still would have fought if the PC didn't use the dark side of the force but at that point the PC could use a social check and upgrade it with at light side DP they didn't have to use in an earlier force power.

I think once you play, you will see how the Destiny point system can tie a lot events together and make for some interesting situations.

Question for you tho, if you don't want your PCs to use DP on force powers, how do you expect them to use them? How would you use them?

Magic Beans are supposed to get you something cool, not give you the privilege of suffering mechanical setbacks. Though I would still use them for everything except pip use.

I have to wonder why the OP doesn't like spending DP's. Destiny points flow so freely in our games that it's rarely an issue, but it does add a bit of strategy to the back and forth. Players who think they may have a "must succeed" force situation coming up need to preserve at least one destiny point.

Anyway, my two bits. It's a bad idea. You'll throw off the balance mechanics for using The Force, which work pretty well. Try it as written before you start tweaking rules.

Like KungFuFerret said, feels like a jerk move.

Upgrading a Dice Pool is the least interesting and weakest thing anyone can do with a Destiny Point. if your basing this totally on the large amount of the structured rules that talk about upgrading checks then you have missed the critical use... Change the Scene.

DP's let the GM do things without being a Jerk, thats the whole point! Instead of reinforcements arriving to ruin the PC's fun for no reason than "Just Coz" or "Nah, really, i planned it like this" you can look across the table and tell the Players the truth "I think this battle is a little easy and a bit of a flop, it was supposed to be big and climactic, so i'm flipping a Destiny Point over to spice this encounter up a bit. Suddenly 15 gangers crash in through windows, guns up and blazing" Of course once the Players understand this side of things then you don't even need to tell them why your flipping the DP.

Then your going to have a player who needs to access a part of the terrain, or wants a better vantage point, or some solid cover. They flip a DP and wham they get to create something within the world that brings depth to the encounter and enhances the story.

Any way, your game so do whats right for your group, but when you have 10 different house rules to balance all the broken* aspects of the game we will be more than willing to provide some guidance on how we manage to happily play entirely by RAW.

*Broken aspects may include but are not limited to:

• Lightsabers OP
• Auto-Fire OP
• Marauders are OP
• Space Combat too hard
• Vehicle scale weapons vs Personal Scale targets , too much damage
• Move (Seriously 4 ATAT's at Extreme range do how much damage to my inquisitor?)
• Reflect and Parry not like the movies
• The Force is too hard (Zing)
• PC's are OP at 400xp
• PC's have too much stuff
• Starting XP is too low
• Death at double WT?
• Setback Removal Talents really = Gain a Boost
• Two Weapon Fighting is too hard

• Move (Seriously 4 ATAT's at Extreme range do how much damage to my inquisitor?)

160 damage I think, assuming you drop them on him one at a time

And it only cost 4 Force Pips, lucky that FR 3 PC didn't have to flip a DP to use the Dark Side pips, why didn't Obi Wan or Yoda think of that?

A serious question now for those here using RAW. Does the DP flip to use Dark Side Force pips (or LSfp if your a DSFU) count as your "Once per Action" use? It's not in the normal sequence of a turn that DP's are normally used, but it is still before the conclusion of that action. I can't find an exact clarification anywhere one way or the other.

I had this come up in a game, force user was using Resilience against a particularly vicious poison from a nefarious assassin. They really wanted to pass the test so upgraded their pool with a DP and decided to use Enhance too (fair enough). But the dice betrayed them (zero successes and a black pip on their Force Die). They were going to be in trouble if they didn't generate a success, and wanted to use the black pip. As far as I was concerned it wasn't like they were using two DPs to upgrade their pool twice (which is likely the reason for the one per action DP rule), so I let them.