Seriously you guys, Dark Side != Conflict. You keep thinking I'm saying "Conflict" when I'm writing "Dark Side" but I'm not. I'm also not talking about pips, I'm talking about the Dark Side from the movies. FFG chose to call those black pips on their Force Die, "Dark Side Results" and then act like using them is A Very Bad Thing. It wasn't me, I swear, I didn't write the book.

But I don't think there's anything else to be gained in this thread. I've gotten some ideas from it.

Thanks.

Only FFG doesn't do that. It doesn't act like using dark side points is a bad thing. It assumes that you are going to be using them. It encourages you to use them.

They call them Dark Side Points and then proceed to go into great detail about how Conflict is not the same as being evil.We keep coming back to Conflict not because you say Conflict but because the end result of using dark side points is the generation of Conflict. So it matters what generating Conflict means in this game. Thus using dark side points is not the same thing as calling on the dark side since the end result of dark side points isn't the Dark Side itself, but the generation of Conflict. And the generation of Conflict doesn't necessarily lead to the dark side.

You're getting tripped up on the name and reading into it what isn't there. You don't actually gain Dark Side points. You just become a dark sider when your Morality gets too low. But becoming a dark sider is removed from the using dark side points. You can use dark side points without it being a bad thing for the character. They game itself doesn't equate dark side points as actually using the dark side. They leave what it means when you use those dark side points to be a matter of what the GM and player want it to mean. So yes you can interpret the use of dark side points as calling on the dark side. Or you can interpret it as acting out of frustration. But the end result of using dark side points is the gaining of Conflict and the book makes it clear gaining Conflict is not the same as using the dark side. You only truly use the dark side when A. you say as much B. you use a dark side power or C you're a darksider.

They work really hard not to railroad you down a particular path.

I should reiterate that I understand that while the game, mechanically speaking, apparently expects you to use Dark Side points, that Master Yoda's comment on the matter was: "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

That's not a lot of wiggle room, thematically speaking.

While I agree that the cost of using Dark Side pips is too **** high, it's worth noting that Yoda was explicitly proven wrong on this count.

I do agree with Destiny Point flipping being too high a cost for an ability that is meant to be tempting in combination with strain. I usually find that most players wouldn't do so aside from the most urgent circumstances. Perhaps that is the point as there are very few machanical benefits and detriments attached to either side of the paragon scale.

For a lightsaber one time that was on my characters person for a long time, a sith spirit within it made calling on the darkside easier. This was fluffed in that I didn't have to spend the strain cost for using darkside pips as his reassuring influence meant that calling on my emotions was an invigorating experience, yet since it was destroyed some sessions ago, I've found that I've hadn't the same opportunities to flip pips that I once had due to a strain intense dodge build that my character had organically evolved into. Perhaps the strain cost of it being dropped would make it more tempting in the long run for those disinclined due to crunch reasons.

Qui-Gon Jin. There's no evidence he ever felt any emotion. Sorry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I strongly disagree. Qui-Gon standing in front of the arrayed Jedi Council, placing his hands on Anakin's shoulder's and saying he would train Anakin despite the refusal of the Council was 100% emotionally based. He was effectively saying "F you, F the rules, I know better than all y'all."

This was not a detached and emotionless response. This was very much something he personally believed in. The logical response would have been, "These 12 individuals who are looking at the situation from outside and are unbiased by what they have seen have collectively decided against a course of action that I, a single viewpoint connected closely to the topic at hand, prefer. I will default to the to consensus that I have missed something." Instead, he took the emotional "I know better than the consensus despite the many warnings that have created the decision because I consider my personal belief more valid than theirs."

That said, there is nothing saying that beginning Force users should succeed if they want to have every action be "pure" in the spirit of the Force. There are a lot of Force users that go through life never using the Force because they feel it "failed them" or "never aided them when they needed it." No one expects the novice to succeed, and a lot of people spend a long time trying to do something before they succeed at it (ask any writer or artist).

In the end, your players are underwhelmed by the Force for exactly the reasons why most Force users left to their own devices go Dark Side - the Light Side takes patience and commitment. The Dark Side is flashier and far more "consistent" in productivity. Until FR 2, a pure light sider has little change of consistent success.

This is perfectly in line with Yoda's sentiments, though. "A Jedi must posses the deepest commitment, a most serious mind." If you want to get your first Force Die and start succeeding right away, being a Jedi isn't for you. Think about Luke in his first experience ... getting zapped by the training Droid. It took a few repeated attempts to get it right, and he was freaking Skywalker!

This was not a detached and emotionless response. This was very much something he personally believed in. The logical response would have been, "These 12 individuals who are looking at the situation from outside and are unbiased by what they have seen have collectively decided against a course of action that I, a single viewpoint connected closely to the topic at hand, prefer. I will default to the to consensus that I have missed something." Instead, he took the emotional "I know better than the consensus despite the many warnings that have created the decision because I consider my personal belief more valid than theirs."

I would agree more readily if the prequels didn't present the Jedi Council as completely clueless and incompetent. I know part of Qui-Gon's schtick is that he's supposed to be a bit of a nonconformist, but after dealing with those guys for decades, I probably wouldn't even consult them anymore.

The Prequels presented EVERYONE as clueless and incompetent. Qui-Gon himself was pretty clumsy with Watto in the beginning, and he couldn't even figure out the Padme/Amidala disguise that was painfully obvious.

The Prequels presented EVERYONE as clueless and incompetent. Qui-Gon himself was pretty clumsy with Watto in the beginning, and he couldn't even figure out the Padme/Amidala disguise that was painfully obvious.

Plus none of the Jedi knew the queen's first name

I was playing a character who clung fiercely to the light side of the Force, and refused to use any dark pips (before F&D came out), and was getting frustrated at my attempts at using the Force failing all the time. Then I realized my character would also feel frustrated by that. So I decided that there would be times where it would make sense for him to give into his frustration or fear. The first time I used a a dark side pip surprised everyone at the table.

I had gotten us all in a pretty sticky situation, partly from insisting on our taking the harder path to do the right thing, against everyone else's objections, and then compounded it by failing a few rolls. So we ended up in a situation where we were surprised by a group of bounty hunters while sitting around having drinks in a cantina. No one had a weapon to hand, and talking our way out of it wasn't working, so I tried to use Move to disarm the group, and rolled just dark side, but fearing that this would get someone killed, and in particular that I was the cause, gave into the fear and took the strain + Conflict to protect everyone.

That didn't mean I was going dark, but it made sense for the character.

The people telling you that you're playing wrong are correct, but not doing a good job of saying why in most cases. Have your players selected their Morality counterpoints? How do you deal with those? My feeling is that the negative parts of your morality choices should be situations in which your character is likely to use the dark side if they can't succeed in that moment with the light. Otherwise, your characters aren't really engaging those negative aspects, right? They are just being inactive.

For inspiration, watch the movies, and The Clone Wars: there are numerous times where Obi-Wan or Luke appear to be acting out of frustration, rage, or anger...not a lot, and not so much that it gains control over them, but sometimes they employ those more aggressive feelings to overcome their opponent/an obstacle.

The Prequels presented EVERYONE as clueless and incompetent. Qui-Gon himself was pretty clumsy with Watto in the beginning, and he couldn't even figure out the Padme/Amidala disguise that was painfully obvious.

Plus none of the Jedi knew the queen's first name

I figure Qui-Gon knew full well about the "deception" and simply played along on the pretext of keeping Amidala from having a royal snit. Plus, with Tatooine being what it was, he figured she was probably just as safe with him as she was back on the ship. Heck, you even see Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have a "told you so" exchange of glances when Amidala reveals herself to Boss Nass.

The Prequels presented EVERYONE as clueless and incompetent. Qui-Gon himself was pretty clumsy with Watto in the beginning, and he couldn't even figure out the Padme/Amidala disguise that was painfully obvious.

Plus none of the Jedi knew the queen's first name

I figure Qui-Gon knew full well about the "deception" and simply played along on the pretext of keeping Amidala from having a royal snit. Plus, with Tatooine being what it was, he figured she was probably just as safe with him as she was back on the ship. Heck, you even see Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have a "told you so" exchange of glances when Amidala reveals herself to Boss Nass.

I dunno, every time I see that scene, they both seem to have a "oh, crap, we got played" expression to me. I could see it being read either way, but it felt more like genuine surprise to me.

Just don't watch that movie, its easier

It's an interesting mechanic, isn't it? My friends have also looked at it, and been less than impressed with how it is shown to work, which is sad, because I actually like it, but that's how it goes. On the topic of "they should be in control of their feelings", I can't necessarily agree with that. I have a friend, and every time I run Star Wars, be it revised, Saga, or whatever, he's the one I HOPE wants to be a Jedi. He knows more about the lore, and the Expanded Universe stuff I use, than even I do, as he's read more of the books, while I've binged more on Wookieepedia, but he's completely incapable of immersing into his character. His favorite character is Corran Horn, and that's mostly what i get out of him regardless of what we're playing. They could be facing down the Emperor, and in legitimate peril of a TPK, and he'll still smart off to the man, accepting that he isn't in danger, and he'll just build another character. I babble all of this because, in his mindset, he could NEVER fall to the dark side; there is no conflict, no temptation, if all he might have to do is build another character. He's one of my favorite players, but I hate that aspect of his gaming (also why Exar Kun Force-rag dolling Corran Horn all over the Temple of Fire, and breaking many of his bones, is one of my all-time favorite EU moments). For people like him, who simply won't play their character like a person, or who act like Yoda was their only Master, and he never allowed students to make their own mistakes, this system, at least to me, is good. In Saga, you could readily control the rate in which you got DSP, whether you wanted to accumulate them, or avoid them, and in Revised, you needed so many that they almost were pointless, but this system sort of saddling you with Conflict, as a thing you can't escape (or find a way that doesn't involve bothering the universe with your petty needs), makes it feel like the Dark Side is actually a thing, and possibly a thing that will get to show you why it is better, if you decide to view it that way. Once you also realize that minor transgressions are NOT really walking you that much closer to Fallen status, it's even better, and the exact same way a Dark Side character will look at it. Is he cursing that he needs to call on the light, meaning every choice he's ever made is wrong, or refusing to use the Force, at all? No, he's realizing that the Force is a flowing eddy, and the ebb wasn't as good, just then; he needs to push his ability a bit more.

As an aside, since the game is designed to be so narrative, you might hand wave some Force checks, like Anakin Force-impressing Padme with a pear, while only making them roll when it is serious, sort of like d20's "taking 10". It sort of takes the wind out of the system, but can give more the view that the Force does obey your commands, unless you are nervous, tense, or what have you, and then the dice might roll poor, and you fail. As an aside, also remember that it is the only dice pool that doesn't have failures, to allow enemies to contribute to your misery. Even the worst rolls don't let them trigger problems, or give them extra oomph to harass you with. In that way, the Force has to sort of punk you, on its own, or it will seem too reliable, and you'll wonder why anyone buids a character without it. Opinion done.

The ting to keep in mind with Light side to dark side transfer is that people rarely if ever move from being a "good" person to a paragon of evil in 1 simple step (or any strongly held value). It is a longer process that involves minor compromises or transgressions (that can be rationalized as being "worth it" to accomplish the goal at hand) at first, then slightly more difficult ones and so on up until they are capable of truly evil acts. Remember the old adage "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

For example,

Most (if not all) of the serial killers do not start with killing humans. It often starts when they are younger with small animals, like squirrels, rabbits, stray cats and gradually moves to larger animals like dogs then to humans.

So rather then tempt the player directly with Darth Badass taunting him "Kill your friends and join me with the ultimate power!", which will not work in 95% of the cases with anyone. Rather have him work through intermediaries (or even him in disguise like Palaptine/ Sidious did) putting him in situations where it will be easy to give into anger/ hatred to to accomplish his goal (Ani killing the Tuskan Raider settlement to save his mother, he views them as a step up from animals) and so on.

apollyonbob, on 03 Apr 2016 - 8:42 PM, said:

I should reiterate that I understand that while the game, mechanically speaking, apparently expects you to use Dark Side points, that Master Yoda's comment on the matter was: "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

And Obi Wan lost his S when fighting Maul, but didn't instantly turn into a slobbering dark side monster. Luke flipped out when fighting Vader and also didn't turn into a Space Nazi.

So yeah, tell them to loosen the hell up. A couple of points of conflict isn't forever dominating your destiny.

It is conflict. They are conflicted about what they did. If their morality goes up at the end of the night they resolved their conflicted feelings in a positive way. If it goes down they did so in a negative way. Too much negative and you fall. As long as they are not in addition to their force rolls not doing stuff on the chart and not getting extravagant with the usage of dark side pips you are most likely going to go up a little.

even Yoda had conflict. No one is a perfect serenity. Having no emotion is not possible. How you handle your emotions is what matters. Some are better at it than others.

apollyonbob, on 03 Apr 2016 - 8:42 PM, said:

I should reiterate that I understand that while the game, mechanically speaking, apparently expects you to use Dark Side points, that Master Yoda's comment on the matter was: "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

And Obi Wan lost his S when fighting Maul, but didn't instantly turn into a slobbering dark side monster. Luke flipped out when fighting Vader and also didn't turn into a Space Nazi.

As for that bit about Yoda's line regarding how the "dark side will forever dominate your destiny," two things.

First, he's being metaphorical, and cautioning Luke that if you always take the quick/easy path, it's not going to end well for you.

Secondly, that line was taken into consideration with the Morality mechanic, in that once your Morality score drops below a 30 (i.e. you become a dark sider), you don't stop being a dark sider until your Morality score goes above a 70. Meaning that if a PC is looking to redeem themselves after going dark, it's going to be a very difficult struggle up that hill to reach the point where they are no longer a dark sider.

Also being conflicted is not going down the dark path. You have to work at it. By choosing the easy way etc. every time.