So I've run into a problem running Force and Destiny when my group tries to actually use the Force. The group I'm running is just getting started, and one person in particular is trying to use the Force in various ways and almost always fails to do so, but in general so far, the group has been pretty underwhelmed by the whole experience.

I'll start with the Force Die. There are two design intentions as I understand it:

Vary the amount of Force points that can be spent on an action

Make the dark side an ever present temptation

In my group, it doesn't really succeed in either of these because to a group of people who don't want to give in to the dark side, or don't want to pay the (arguably high) cost for dark side points, they view black pips as failure. They do not continue. This means that for them, a Force check has a ~60% chance of failure. That means it doesn't really vary the amount of Force points (the number is almost always 0, i.e., no light), and it doesn't really make the dark side a temptation because despite how bad it feels to lose your turn, it seems better mechanically than taking straight and flipping destiny to do something that might not work anyway. (After all, at some point, unless a Force power has a straight up mechanical benefit - deal X damage - I might not be able to give them what they want out of it.)

So far in my game, for every time someone's tried to use the Force it's like, "Lets try to use the Force!", then roll, dark pip, welp, you can be a horrible dark side nazi or ... pass your turn.

Your choice buddy!

They choose 'Pass the turn' pretty much every time unless they think it's super important. This feels bad, because nobody likes playing a game where "not playing" is the right choice.

I'd like to point out too that by "feels bad" I'm not referring to just like, well they didn't succeed and that sucks, I'm referring to the specific sensation where you feel like you're playing against the game instead of against your opponents. That specific feel bad is what I'm referring to.

So, I have an idea - Dark Side Point Conversion.

If you roll a dark side pip, you can have two choices:

1) Use it as a dark side force point. This requires flipping a Destiny Point, and costs you 1 Conflict + 1 Strain per Dark Side pip you use. (RAW)

Or 2) Use it as a light side force point, which requires 2 Strain per dark side pip you convert. The GM must flip a Destiny Point.

The reason for the GM being forced to flip a Destiny Point is that if he can't, then you can't convert. This is the same as a player being unable to use a dark side pip if they can't flip a Destiny Point. Also, I've felt like I have so many dark side destiny points I can't spend 'em fast enough and this would help with that.

It's an unusual route to take, forcing an action on the GM, but I feel like it might be the least intrusive way to allow players to actually play light side Jedi that, while maybe sacrificing some of themselves to do it, avoid going down the dark path. (And that sacrifice then benefits the party through increased Light Side Destiny Points.)

The powers wouldn't change because after converting a pip, it is, for all intents and purposes, a light side point. There is no residual dark side.

I'd like to point out that I understand mechanically that while players should probably be using dark side points, it's antithetical to Jedi characters to do this. And I'd rather they sacrifice strain than a whole turn, or be forced out of the Star Wars experience because, well, the game's needs are more important than the players.

Thoughts? Does anyone think this would imbalance things too much? (I'll be watching as Force Ratings, and therefore dice, increase to see if this becomes too easy access to light side points.)

They only get conflict points. It isn't really that bad, certainly not nazi bad.

My players will usually rack up 2-4 conflict on force powers in a session, and they are all shining paragons on the light side scale.

Are you doing conflict right?

Well, for the ones more concerned about the game side of things, it's the destiny point + conflict + strain all together that makes it less tempting. Plus the idea that it feels like the game is telling them not to do it when it costs it that high.

For the ones more concerned about their character than the game, it's not conflict points, it's giving in to anger and hate. Which, I mean, in their defense, is how the Dark Side is presented in all the movies.

I should reiterate that I understand that while the game, mechanically speaking, apparently expects you to use Dark Side points, that Master Yoda's comment on the matter was: "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

That's not a lot of wiggle room, thematically speaking.

I should reiterate that I understand that while the game, mechanically speaking, apparently expects you to use Dark Side points, that Master Yoda's comment on the matter was: "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

That's not a lot of wiggle room, thematically speaking.

They're not dark side points in the terms that you're using the Dark Side of the Force. It's Conflict generation. You are taping into emotions that could, if not balanced properly, lead you down the path of the Dark Side. The game doesn't give out Dark Side points. You have light pips and you have dark pips. Dark pips generates Conflict but doesn't directly call on the Dark Side of the Force. Calling on the Dark Side of the Force is really represented by dark side powers such as Unleash and Harm. Conflict on the other hand is the moral battle between right and wrong. You're expected to generate Conflict because you're expected to engage in a moral conflict over your actions. When you roll for Conflict at the end of the adventure you're basically rolling to see how the character resolves his internal struggle between the darkness and the light. When you show remorse, resolve to do better, learn a deep lessons (all represented by your Morality going up) you've learned from the experience and moved up the path towards the light. When you justify your actions, down play the negatives of what you did, and accept them as necessary you drop in Morality.

The only way to progress is to do things that are going to cause Conflict, that are going to have you wrestle with the morality of your actions. Even Yoda admits this is the case (watch Rebels he talks about the constant pull of the dark side and how even he struggles with it).

The biggest problem is that people keep equating gaining Conflict with using the dark side. That's not what is happening here though. You'll notice you can't go up in Morality with out actually doing something that generates Conflict. In other words you can't learn something about the Force without actually experince the ebbs and flows that comes with it and learning from the constant pull between the light and dark.

As you gain in experince (ie more Force dice) you also gain in knowledge in how to use the Force without generating Conflict (though you ultimately still can't raise your Morality without experince some form of Conflict from your actions in general). This exhibits how as you get better with using the Force you get better at controling the ebb and flow. It represents your ability to calm your mind when you use the Force. A lot of players short cut this battle. They assume from the start that their characters are in complete 100% control of their emotions and that they are always calm and cool when they call on the Force. FFG says no, that's not only not possible for starter characters it's not realistic. The mechanic forces the character to experince the fight to gain control. It mirrors how Luke struggled with learning the difference between light and dark.

When you convert the pip (as your house rule suggest) your basically just opting out to explore the difficulties starter characters are meant to have. It's not a bad rule per se (though you will likely find your PC's get more frustrated because of extra strain use or the GM unwilling to flip) but you miss the point of experience the Force as this game envisions it. Toss out everything you know about the Force mechanic from other games. Dark pips are not dark side points. They aren't using the dark side. They are just representing the difficulties of being calm and acting from a state of peace. They are anger. But their also anxiety. It's fear. It's worry. It's concern. It's haste. It's a whole lot of things that people experience and have no control over. As the PC's gain in experience they'll find that the calmness that they think their characters would have is easier to have. But the beginning is meant to be hard. You're meant to stumble along the path. But ultimately no one falls to the darkside in this game unless they want to. For the most part generating a few Conflict points, using the dark pips aren't going to adversely affect your character over the long run. Sure there are gonna be nights where yeah it drops and maybe drops hard. But you're not meant to remain up always. You're meant to struggle. And this is exactly how Yoda describes it in Rebels.

Kael above me is pretty much right. I would add that if your players see the use of dark pipes as failure, they are wrong and if you enforce that perception by telling them they will be "sith nazi" if they do so to lift a crate, you pretty much fail to understand the meaning of the rules. A starting force user is expected to use the dark side since they dont have the training to perfectly control the Force without taking the easiest path. Force and Destiny is all about moral struggle between light and dark side. If you dont want to experience that struggle, you are playing the wrong game.

Anakin himself, Quinlan Voss, Ventress and many other character in the old EU are good exemple that the dark side is not always absolute. Redemption is always possible.

Fear, as Yoda said in Episode 1, is also a emotion that feeds the Dark side. The fear of losing a friend, fear of dying or being captured by the inquisitor can also explain why someone take the easy path when he use the Force.

First off sometimes not acting is more Morally wrong than acting in haste, or frustration, or fear.

As an example if a PC is crossing a narrow bridge to help rescue some innocents on the other side, they are doing a good thing. But they fall. One of your other PC's, with the Move force power, rolls to catch them and gets 1 LS and 1 DS. to actually catch their friend they need 2 Force Pips. Do they act in haste? Or let them fall to their death?

• "Fearing for your friends life you rush to reach out with the force and catch them, addrenalin pumping through your blood, your just able to hold their weight to let them get a handhold, your sure you have averted death for your companion" 1 Conflict for acting in haste, 1 Strain for the rush of blood and exertion, 1 DP flip for changing fate.
• "Fearing for your friends life you to reach out with the force and catch them, but your slow and calm approach doesn't give you the time you need to avert their fate, you watch in slow-motion as they fall hundreds of meters to their death. The look of fear on their face will haunt you for ever. If only you had acted faster you could have saved their life" 5 Conflict for not saving someone who was within your power to save.

One of the things you haven't experienced yet is PC's with a higher Force Rating, as they get to 2 or 3 then doing simple things gets much much easier, there is always the temptation to use the Dark Side Pips to increase the effect of your Force Power, but thats just as Yoda explained. The more experienced in Force Use a character is the easier they find it to control their emotions when manipulating the Force.

Just remember that a starting pc is very unexperienced in the force, akin to a youngling. the general consensus has been that beginner PC's get the most out of committing their Force Dice, or rolling it as part of a skill check (Enhance, Sense, Foresee etc are the common ones) The more flamboyant powers such as Move, Bind etc require a FR 2 or 3 to consistently do big things.

Then one more thing. A PC's fall to the dark side is measured by their Morality, not their Conflict, average on a D10 is 5, if your average Conflict is less than 5 a session then your on average going to go up in morality.

Unlearn what you have learned! use the Force emotionally, just not too emotionally

So I've run into a problem running Force and Destiny when my group tries to actually use the Force. The group I'm running is just getting started, and one person in particular is trying to use the Force in various ways and almost always fails to do so, but in general so far, the group has been pretty underwhelmed by the whole experience.

I'll start with the Force Die. There are two design intentions as I understand it:

Vary the amount of Force points that can be spent on an action

Make the dark side an ever present temptation

In my group, it doesn't really succeed in either of these because to a group of people who don't want to give in to the dark side, or don't want to pay the (arguably high) cost for dark side points, they view black pips as failure. They do not continue. This means that for them, a Force check has a ~60% chance of failure. That means it doesn't really vary the amount of Force points (the number is almost always 0, i.e., no light), and it doesn't really make the dark side a temptation because despite how bad it feels to lose your turn, it seems better mechanically than taking straight and flipping destiny to do something that might not work anyway. (After all, at some point, unless a Force power has a straight up mechanical benefit - deal X damage - I might not be able to give them what they want out of it.)

So far in my game, for every time someone's tried to use the Force it's like, "Lets try to use the Force!", then roll, dark pip, welp, you can be a horrible dark side nazi or ... pass your turn.

Your choice buddy!

You and your players are falling into the typical misconception about Conflict, and seeing any attempt to use the Dark Side pips as instant Space Nazi Card Carrying status. The character doesn't always know that he is directly "tapping into the Dark Side". He's using the Force, that's it. In a heated moment, with a friend/loved one at risk, they reach out, with fear for that loved one in their heart, and use Move to save them. Hey look,t hat is the narrative way of describing them deciding to use those Dark Side pips. There are TONS of examples in the lore of people doing this, and it doesn't mean they are instantly evil. It is simply an example of the constant struggle that Force users have, to not let their emotions rule their actions. Because if they just let them rule their actions all the time, they will act on the more negative emotions too, and cause great harm. But seriously, name me one heroic Jedi character, that actually had a narrative follow them (not supporting characters, as we don't see them do anything directly, they're narrative mouthpieces), name me one that didn't have at least one encounter with the using their emotions with the Force. That's not bad, that's conflict. *gasp* What a coincedence, they used the same word. A heroic character without conflict is a dull character.

So they use those Dark Side pips, and get a point or 2 of Conflict, assuming that's the only time they do it that session, so what? Guess what happens at the end of the session, they roll their Conflict d10, and most likely come out with a positive Morality result. I mean, if you're guys are looking at it from such a meta/statistical way, then ask yourself "What is the % chance that using this 1-2 dark side pips will actually result in me rolling a negative dip to my Morality?" 10-20% at best. So they've still got an 80ish% chance to come out on top, even with using those pips.

Now personally, I don't like having to use a Destiny Point to use those Dark Side pips, and house ruled that away a month ago. For one, we just don't use the DP's that much, and forget about them all the time, and for two, I think it's more fun to having it as an easier temptation, and my players agree. "Want to use those dark side pips? Sure, go right ahead....whenever you want."

If they're still unhappy about how useless the Force is, then tell them to invest in Force powers that let you simply commit the Force die, to maintain an action. It's quick, simple, and always works. Presto! Positive benefit for Force use! And to get Force rating 2, because that second die helps a lot with this problem

One thing your players can do is concentrate at first on those applications of the Force that allow them to boost skill checks or to Commit dice rather than roll actively. Enhance and Sense probably give the most "bang for buck" at FR1, and that power progression is more in keeping with the lore than starting with the more flashy applications. If the players want to be Master Obiwan out of the gate, they need to start with a LOT more XP (300 is a minimum). The Force is hard to learn.

But otherwise, I agree with the answers you've received so far: it seems your players are making too big a deal out of using the dark pips. My view is that by paying the Strain and DP costs, the character is working hard to keep their focus on the light side, it means they are actively avoiding the temptation of the dark side.

I get what you guys are saying, but you should understand that this is not how the book frames it. I quote from page 280:

"A Force-sensitive character may use one or more [Dark Side result] to generate one additional [Force point] each - in addition to those generated by the [Light Side result]. The consequences that come with this choice can be dire and can gravely affect the individual who gives in to this temptation." [Emphasis mine.]

But I don't really want to dwell on that side of it, because it's not really about the Conflict, as I said earlier.

So let me be clear: None of my players mind Conflict.

I'll write that again since I didn't call it out clearly enough apparently - None of my players have a problem with gaining Conflict.

Gaining Conflict isn't a problem with my players.

It's that they want the Conflict gain to come from choices. Several of you used the "You need to Move someone to save them", sure. I'll give you that example, as that's a good one. Here's another: You want to help your ally by having someone feel friendly toward them, using Influence. You roll the Force check and oh, all dark side. Well all you can do now is either make them angry, or confused, which you do not want, or pass the turn. That's it. That's your only choices. Make everything worse, or do nothing.

They're perfectly okay when instead of warning someone, they turn to save themselves, and Conflict gained. They're alright with that.

So 1) they don't like is the notion that their character is tapping into the Dark Side - this being distinct and different from the Conflict mechanic. And 2) is the high cost associated with doing so.

If you house ruled making using the Dark Side less mechanically painful, than you're not doing anything different than I am really, you're just making a different tweak. Straight removing the DP cost would be a possibility, as I know one person is way more concerned about having to flip a Destiny Point for it than anything else. But the point of doing that is that if the players are consistently tapping into the Dark Side it should be fueling Dark Side Destiny. And that's why the second part of my rule flips a Destiny Point in their favor. Personal sacrifice for the good of the group. It also maintains the limits that the original cost has - which is that if in the event all the DPs are flipped, they can't do it. That's more of a limiting per-round of combat thing, I'd imagine. (Cuz obviously I'm going to immediately use some as soon as some NPCs can go.)

My players also tend to really want their character's emotional state and state of mind to be more under their own control. The idea that the game is saying, "Okay you're afraid/angry/sad/hatey now" when they don't think they should be, they don't like. And then on top of it, the movie lore basically says that it's their fault because they should be in control.

My players do not know Star Wars particularly well. So trying to pull stuff out of the now-defunct EU doesn't really mean much to them. As far as they're aware, Obi-Wan never used any dark side in Star Wars. I could try to change their mind about that, but now I'm just arguing with them to try to get them to use more Dark Side, which the book itself warns against doing.

One of the things you haven't experienced yet is PC's with a higher Force Rating, as they get to 2 or 3 then doing simple things gets much much easier, there is always the temptation to use the Dark Side Pips to increase the effect of your Force Power, but thats just as Yoda explained. The more experienced in Force Use a character is the easier they find it to control their emotions when manipulating the Force.

Just remember that a starting pc is very unexperienced in the force, akin to a youngling. the general consensus has been that beginner PC's get the most out of committing their Force Dice, or rolling it as part of a skill check (Enhance, Sense, Foresee etc are the common ones) The more flamboyant powers such as Move, Bind etc require a FR 2 or 3 to consistently do big things.

This is more the kind of feedback I was looking for. Yeah Bind in fact requires FR2. But powers like Influence, Misdirect, Foresee ... These powers only require FR1, and you're basically saying that I should tell my players to undo their character power choices and not take them.

I mean, I guess in the future I can advise players to not use the Powers in the book that should be rightfully available to them but that feels even worse to me, because now I'm trying to dictate character creation.

I know that they're low level right now, and I've been trying to tell them that if they get to FR2 it's less of a problem, but right now they really don't care. They're trying to use the Force and every time they do it goes bad. I had one person actually exclaim, "Oh my god, I used a Force power and it did what I wanted!"

Like, that's really not good. And you guys can act like I'm an idiot all you want, but no amount of hectoring like I don't understand the Force Die is going to change that my players are not having a good time I tried to use the Living Force argument even, they're really not buying what I'm selling haha.

Unlearn what you have learned! use the Force emotionally, just not too emotionally

Contrary to what every Jedi master in the movies say

You can use a little Dark Side, just so long as you keep it managed. You know, just use Dark Side socially, and you too can become a paragon of light.

But otherwise, I agree with the answers you've received so far: it seems your players are making too big a deal out of using the dark pips. My view is that by paying the Strain and DP costs, the character is working hard to keep their focus on the light side, it means they are actively avoiding the temptation of the dark side.

This is good, I like this. Although while I agree the strain and conflict say that, the DP costs ... Well, that could maybe be explained away other ways.

The problem is that while this is a good explanation, it doesn't actually solve the problem of "dark side or pass", especially since the rules aren't written this way. (For instance, some Force Powers change depending on whether Dark Side was spent or not.) It may make them more willing to take Dark Side more often, but there's definitely too many situations where doing so would be strictly mechanically worse than just passing.

Also, I'm not going to be able to get my players to not use Force powers they're allowed to pick in the book. We're well beyond character creation anyway. So going back and saying "By the way don't make the character you want to make because the mechanics punish you for it" that's not a tenable solution at the moment. Besides, someone already did that when they realized Influence, an FR1 power, wasn't predictably usable at low levels because of the Dark Side variance of the Force Die. (This is not stellar design, btw ) I can't really ask them to do it again.

I've written way too much. But I can't resist one last comment:

But seriously, name me one heroic Jedi character, that actually had a narrative follow them (not supporting characters, as we don't see them do anything directly, they're narrative mouthpieces), name me one that didn't have at least one encounter with the using their emotions with the Force.

Qui-Gon Jin. There's no evidence he ever felt any emotion. Sorry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also, any further comments about how I'm playing wrong are pretty much useless at this point. I get it, you think people should just be honky dory totally okay with spending Dark Side points. I get it.

No further comments to that point are needed. I understand that's how you feel. No amount of forum posts are going to change my players perceptions that it's A Bad Idea.

If anyone thinks that the proposed mechanic would be problematic, I'd love to hear that though.

Tales From the Hydian Way – The Mad Adventurers Society: 83 – The Return of Max Tale

https://overcast.fm/+DW2ZWW8yI

Listen to this

Tales From the Hydian Way – The Mad Adventurers Society: 83 – The Return of Max Tale

https://overcast.fm/+DW2ZWW8yI

Listen to this

I don't really have 40 minutes, but so far he's describing the way I want Conflict to be assigned, which has nothing to do with dice and everything to do with story haha

I say this again reiterating that Conflict isn't the problem I have with the Dark Side Results.

I found that rolling light side pips initially was rare, but accepted that it was simply a reality of my character's minimal training and knowledge (she had FR 1). But it's worth remembering that each Force die gained from the Rating talent significantly boosts your chances of gaining pips - and each pip gained makes the use of a power so much more potent. After all, rolling that additional pip could allow you to activate Strength upgrades on Move which, if you had, say, 4 of them, would allow you to raise a freighter. To go from Silhouette 0 to 4 with one pip symbolises just how powerful each one CAN be.

Tales From the Hydian Way – The Mad Adventurers Society: 83 – The Return of Max Talehttps://overcast.fm/+DW2ZWW8yI

Listen to this

I don't really have 40 minutes, but so far he's describing the way I want Conflict to be assigned, which has nothing to do with dice and everything to do with story haha

I say this again reiterating that Conflict isn't the problem I have with the Dark Side Results.

Sorry I was pressed for time too when i posted that, still am! But what I think it portrayed well where the intended way for Players to view Conflict, and how they should be comfortable talking on a little, be that from the story or from the dice.

If you think this isn't the right way for the system to work in your group then that's fine, feel free to change the rules. So far everyone has assumed that your group don't understand the design intention with the system (many, nay most, start with the same problem, especially coming from another SW system).

For critiquing your intended house rule I feel the PC should be flipping a Lightside to a DarkSide still to use that DS point. But strain instead of Conflict should work. I can't go deeply into Destiny Pool balance right now, but no matter what if a Player wants to gain something for themselves then they should be giving the GM something for that. It's a currency for the PC's and GM to trade. In this instance the PC invoked the Dark Side which later on will bring bad luck to the party.

I get what you guys are saying, but you should understand that this is not how the book frames it. I quote from page 280:

"A Force-sensitive character may use one or more [Dark Side result] to generate one additional [Force point] each - in addition to those generated by the [Light Side result]. The consequences that come with this choice can be dire and can gravely affect the individual who gives in to this temptation." [Emphasis mine.]

Note that it says can gravely affect, not will gravely affect.

The dire consequences mentioned here is that the process turns a Light Side Destiny point into a Dark Side Destiny point, making it that much more likely that the characters will roll Despair. As the GM, you don't need the characters to fall to the Dark Side over trying to move a box to make their adventures more treacherous.

Also, any further comments about how I'm playing wrong are pretty much useless at this point. I get it, you think people should just be honky dory totally okay with spending Dark Side points. I get it.

You asked for our advice and we gave it; 'you're doing it wrong'.

The designers absolutely intended you to use DS pips regularly, and there's very little downside for doing so.

By default, you're NOT Sith or Jedi or anything, and your morality could be as different as 'Enthusiastic' vs 'Reckless'. Getting Conflict doesn't turn you into an NPC villain in this system, and 'dark side' characters can be played however you want, fight Imperials, join the Alliance, etc.

Also, I haven't seen it mentioned (but maybe I missed it, sorry if I did). But you also have to take into account 'inexperience' i.e. A Force Rating of 1.

Please bear in mind that if you are only rolling a single Force Die you choices are very limited, as the PCs become more experienced (and the character becomes stronger with The Force), they will roll more Force Dice allowing them more choice as to what pips are used and which aren't (remember you don't have to use all the pips that come up).

Just something to keep in mind. They may have been taught well, but they are not a Jedi yet...

At the end of the day, the OP should just go with what works for him and his group. Public consensus seems to be "stick with RAW" and I agree - for my own game.

Apollyonbob, I recommend running your game using your house rule for a chapter or two, and then everyone having a frank discussion as to how it felt. However, it is worth keeping in mind that light side pips will become more prevailing as you gain Force dice to use, and so that should be factored into your final decision.

My players also tend to really want their character's emotional state and state of mind to be more under their own control. The idea that the game is saying, "Okay you're afraid/angry/sad/hatey now" when they don't think they should be, they don't like. And then on top of it, the movie lore basically says that it's their fault because they should be in control.

I agree on this, the idea that your character's state of mind flip flops around like a trout on a beach is just...silly IMHO. Which is why I break from the book and frame it the way I do. The corollary here is that I do allow the PCs to use "naked" dark pips, but that has a direct and severe hit to their Morality (I don't use Conflict, I don't like the mechanic at all). I also view the pips that were converted (using Strain and a DP) as white pips...if somebody spends dark pips messing with the dark side aspect of, say, Influence, that's also a direct Morality hit.

Also, I'm not going to be able to get my players to not use Force powers they're allowed to pick in the book. We're well beyond character creation anyway. So going back and saying "By the way don't make the character you want to make because the mechanics punish you for it" that's not a tenable solution at the moment. Besides, someone already did that when they realized Influence, an FR1 power, wasn't predictably usable at low levels because of the Dark Side variance of the Force Die. (This is not stellar design, btw ) I can't really ask them to do it again.

Why not? If you're new to the game there's going to be some learning involved. I'm sure your players will want to make "redesign" choices about some of their Talents as they learn more about the game.

EDIT: my players have respec'd a couple times each, it's not a huge issue, but it is made easier by using tools like OggDude's character generator.

The thing is, the game is very unstructured and wide open, which is a bonus IMHO, but that comes with some need to figure out how to make it work in your game. If you want to be using the chosen Force powers in a way seen by movie characters, who are already quite proficient, then the only way to do that is add lots of XP and have at least FR2. Instead the game starts characters around Luke's level in E4. The only power he uses in the entire movie is Sense, and/or maybe Enhance with the Agility/Piloting tree.

In a more structured game, you wouldn't be able to use some aspects of the Force without taking prerequisites. If you want to emulate the "Luke path" you have to be prepared to emulate those prerequisites. Or continue on your chosen route and risk regular failure.

WRT to your house rule, I don't think it solves anything. It's far simpler to just reframe how the pips, Strain, and DPs work.

I get what you guys are saying, but you should understand that this is not how the book frames it. I quote from page 280:

"A Force-sensitive character may use one or more [Dark Side result] to generate one additional [Force point] each - in addition to those generated by the [Light Side result]. The consequences that come with this choice can be dire and can gravely affect the individual who gives in to this temptation." [Emphasis mine.]

But I don't really want to dwell on that side of it, because it's not really about the Conflict, as I said earlier.

So let me be clear: None of my players mind Conflict.

I'll write that again since I didn't call it out clearly enough apparently - None of my players have a problem with gaining Conflict.

Gaining Conflict isn't a problem with my players.

Except they clearly do have a problem with gaining Conflict, or they wouldn't be avoiding gaining it from using Dark Side pips. Because that's all they are getting from doing that. Conflict. It's not, as you put it, giving up using the power at all, or going Dark Side. It's just not, sorry. The fact that the, or at least you, summarized their views on the matter to that false dichotomy, shows they/you don't get how Conflict/Dark Side pips work in the game as intended.

It's that they want the Conflict gain to come from choices. Several of you used the "You need to Move someone to save them", sure. I'll give you that example, as that's a good one. Here's another: You want to help your ally by having someone feel friendly toward them, using Influence. You roll the Force check and oh, all dark side. Well all you can do now is either make them angry, or confused, which you do not want, or pass the turn. That's it. That's your only choices. Make everything worse, or do nothing.

The Force doesn't always work, especially for newb Force users, which is what they are at FR 1. If you watch Rebels, they're basically at the level of Ezra when he first started. And guess what, he doesn't always pull off his Force tricks. The show is riddled with examples of him trying, and failing because he's still learning. That's just how it is. He's not as powerful as Obi-Wan (FR 3+ probably), and neither are your players.

Now, that being said, you might want to double check your dice sides. I bought a set of dice, and the coloring for the Force die dots was wrong. It had the right number of faces with pips, but the number of dark side/light side pips wasn't per the rulebook. So you might be running into an actual glitch. So double check the Force die first, to make sure it's not an artifact of the production being a problem.

So they use those Dark Side pips, and get a point or 2 of Conflict, assuming that's the only time they do it that session, so what?

Except it's not the only time they do it that session. It's literally every time they roll the Force die. They're newbs, so they've only got one, so the only way they can use the Force right now is by doing it Dark Side.

I seriously doubt that. You are statistically not going to always roll dark side. Again, like I said above, it could be a dice flaw, and double check that to make sure, but it's impossible to always roll dark. Sure you can have some bad streaks of it in a row, but that's it.

My players also tend to really want their character's emotional state and state of mind to be more under their own control. The idea that the game is saying, "Okay you're afraid/angry/sad/hatey now" when they don't think they should be, they don't like. And then on top of it, the movie lore basically says that it's their fault because they should be in control.

Sorry, but not everything is under their control. And emotions aren't actually under a person's control most of the time. I'd love to not ever be afraid, and there are plenty situations where I've tried to not be afraid, or angry, or embarrassed, but guess what my emotions had other ideas on the matter. And this is a bit of an assumption on my part, but I'm basing it off my personal experience with gamers for over 20+ years, I bet your players would never actually let their characters experience negative emotions, because it's not conducive to their gaming style, and would be inconvenient. You describe a scene that would strike fear into the heart of any normal person, and they just look at you blankly from across the table and say "Ok, my character does this." Without any acknowledgement of the emotional turmoil they would actually be in. I've seen it over and over at the table. Trying to get players to accurately make their characters react the way they would if they were actually in that situation, is very tough, because they're gamers, and there is a layer of disconnect between the table and the scene. So, the game is a little more heavy handed with emotions. I still don't see how this is any different from real life. The emotions come up, whether you want them to or not. The trick is whether you let them control your actions (Discipline check to keep your head), and then react accordingly.

As to the movie lore "blaming them" for not having control, it's not a punishment system. The conflict is there to reflect a conflicted state. They know they should be brave, but their scared. It's a creepy Sith temple, and it's midnight, and there's things rustling in the dark behind them and they're scared.. That's outside of their control.

My players do not know Star Wars particularly well. So trying to pull stuff out of the now-defunct EU doesn't really mean much to them. As far as they're aware, Obi-Wan never used any dark side in Star Wars. I could try to change their mind about that, but now I'm just arguing with them to try to get them to use more Dark Side, which the book itself warns against doing.

You don't have to argue with them about it. Just show them Episode 1, and the Clone Wars cartoon (pretty sure there are some examples in there). But in Ep 1, he clearly gets angry, and lets his anger fuel his actions when Maul kill Qui-Gon. You can see it written all over his face.

I know that they're low level right now, and I've been trying to tell them that if they get to FR2 it's less of a problem, but right now they really don't care. They're trying to use the Force and every time they do it goes bad. I had one person actually exclaim, "Oh my god, I used a Force power and it did what I wanted!"

Like, that's really not good. And you guys can act like I'm an idiot all you want, but no amount of hectoring like I don't understand the Force Die is going to change that my players are not having a good time I tried to use the Living Force argument even, they're really not buying what I'm selling haha.

We don't think you're an idiot, but when you describe how the rules work in a way that is clearly wrong, we're going to point it out. If that equates to "calling you an idiot" in your mind well....I can't really help with that. The bottom line, is that by design the Force is meant to be hard to use. This was a specific design plan, to keep Force users from becoming the default I Win Button when it comes to character creation. Everyone expects to be pulling off Jedi Knight level stuff, because the movies, from character start. When the reality, is that the level of skill you have as a new Force sensitive character in the FFG system, is equivalent of a 5 year old kid, on his first week of Jedi school. You've maybe used the Force once or twice for a big effect (probably emotional reaction to danger, and possibly got some conflict from it), but otherwise, it's all about teaching you how to control it, instead of acting instincitvely. Again, your players, at start, and for a significant amount of time, are the Force functionality of a kindergartner. Humbling I know, but that's the deal. Obi-Wan in Episode 1, is still technically a Padawan, but at the end of 20 something years of training. He's invested lots of adventure XP into his Force powers, and Discipline. Your players? They're the kids in the room, wearing helmets and swinging training sabers back and forth. It takes time, and experience points (lots of them), to become consistently proficient with the Force. That's not a flaw in the system, that's by design. This partly due to pretty much every other Star Wars RPG having a broken system for the Force user, where they quickly outpace any other character type, and become a powerhouse on their own. Which is fun for the player of the Jedi, but not so fun for everyone else, and a pain for the GM to manage. So, this system, it's more of a slow build up. If you are diligent in your training, (investing XP consistently into Force stuff), you will become powerful, but you don't star out the gate Super Sayan, it just doesn't work that way.

The problem is that while this is a good explanation, it doesn't actually solve the problem of "dark side or pass", especially since the rules aren't written this way. (For instance, some Force Powers change depending on whether Dark Side was spent or not.) It may make them more willing to take Dark Side more often, but there's definitely too many situations where doing so would be strictly mechanically worse than just passing.

Except it's not a problem of "Dark Side or pass" Trying to use the Force with only 1 Force die, and restricting yourself from taking conflict, means you are frequently going to not be able to pull off what you are trying to do. Again, this isn't anything new to Star Wars, the main characters frequently fail at trying to consciously use their powers, instead of reacting instinctively. And again, you keep using Dark Side to refer to Conflict. They're not the same thing.

But seriously, name me one heroic Jedi character, that actually had a narrative follow them (not supporting characters, as we don't see them do anything directly, they're narrative mouthpieces), name me one that didn't have at least one encounter with the using their emotions with the Force.

Qui-Gon Jin. There's no evidence he ever felt any emotion. Sorry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And he was a boring ass character. And many would argue he wasn't the actual protagonist of Ep 1, and why it was such a bad movie. But fine, let me rephrase it to clarify the point I was trying to get to. He might've not shown emotion, though I personally argue that he showed some fear when meditating in front of Maul, because he knew he could die in that fight. To me, it was fear on his face, before he got it under control. Anyway. He still did things that resulted in conflict if he was at my table.

Engaged in gambling for the lives of 2 slaves, and altered the roll to get his personal desired outcome. Some might call these 2 different actions that resulted in Conflict, but I could see the ruling of it being one action. But he directly used the Force, to cheat at a game of dice, so that he would get the person he wanted to in the bet. Directly consigning the mother to a life of slavery, no matter the outcome. That's Conflict right there. Did it suddenly make him a Dark Sider? No, in fact, he probably didn't even lose any Morality over that decision, if you assume that was the only shady action he did that session.

So you still have plenty of examples of the heroic characters, struggling with their emotional control, and dealing with the influence of the Dark Side when using the Force. And it makes them more interesting characters, and thus, when they do win, the victory is sweeter because of it.

The Force in FFG isn't like using a power in an MMO. It doesn't always work, or work the way you want it to, every time you click a button.

Seriously you guys, Dark Side != Conflict. You keep thinking I'm saying "Conflict" when I'm writing "Dark Side" but I'm not. I'm also not talking about pips, I'm talking about the Dark Side from the movies. FFG chose to call those black pips on their Force Die, "Dark Side Results" and then act like using them is A Very Bad Thing. It wasn't me, I swear, I didn't write the book.

But I don't think there's anything else to be gained in this thread. I've gotten some ideas from it.

Thanks.

Then you need a paradigm shift, a change of perspective.

In the WEG game, getting a Dark Side Point instantly turned you into an evil NPC, your face melts off and you resemble something out of a horror movie, and you can't subsist on anything but orphans or puppies. And you have to wear black, listen to Emo music and legally change your name to something like 'Darth Evulz'.

In the FFG game... it doesn't.

Just ignore the fluff and use the mechanics. In the movies, they use DS pips all the time and it's pretty much handwaved.

F&D isn't (by default) supposed to be about 'Sith' or 'Jedi'. It's about Force-adepts wandering the galaxy exploring the nature and balance of their positive and negative personality aspects.

The reason people fail to active force powers frequently when they start with is fairly streight forward these people are more comparable to Luke or Young Annie then Padawan Obi-Wan or any of the masters. They have little to no force training and in the meantime have to rely on their skillset heavily to do what they need to do. Luke for example was a brilliant pilot and a good enough shot, thus in the couple of movies he relied really heavily on that skillset and only called on the force very sparingly; either with his mentors calming words or in moments of urgency where his fear kicked in. But slowly we see him develop into a Jedi to the extent that he was fairly capable of drawing on his capabilities often, almost effortlessly. It will take the PC's a very long time to reach that theshold and to be honest the first few sessions will probably play out more like firefly than an asian marital arts movie.

I can understand how this thread can be a bit overwhelming in it's presentation and repeating of the same facts, but it's largely because it has a basis in fact. The rules for most part are largely suggestions but often it's important to read into the spirits of the rules more then anything else. Emotions doesn't lead to the darkside; it's letting it take over that does.

Once your PC's become more experience, then they find that they will be able to focus without emotion more and more; while at the same time having a greater pool of power to draw on during those climatic battles. The little emotions that were but streams before becoming a waterfall.

Sorry to jump all over the bandwagon, but I'm pretty much in agreement with a lot of folks. I do have a couple thoughts to offer. First, I'm in the camp that thinks flipping a Destiny Point is a bit steep of a price for using Dark Pips. Before Force and Destiny, we didn't have the Morality mechanic, so the prices paid were Strain and Destiny, and flipping the Destiny helped represent that ascendance of the Dark Side. Then again, my group is small at only three people, so we often only have 3 Destiny on the table. Larger groups that spend it like candy may not have any sort of problem.
Now then, remember that Morality is a 100 point scale. Back in Saga Edition, it only took about 15 Dark Side Points to fall, and they were hard to get rid of. I remember the Wizards of the Coast boards filled with arguments about what should or shouldn't have given Dark Side Points. The Morality system is still a point of contention here (obviously), but most folks have found some pretty simple tweaks that work for them.
Considering that 100 point scale, there is a lot of wiggle room. I think your players should ask themselves what sort of Force-Users they want to play. Do they really want to be shining Light Side Paragons? Most of the character concepts I've come up with would not fit very well into that category, though they may grow into it later. If you're playing "decent but practical," you can spend those Dark Pips like crazy, as a FR 1 character is going to have a tough time falling to the Dark Side on Force use alone. If he drops down into the 40s, yeah, maybe take it easy next session, and try to be a good boy.
If they do want to become Paragons quickly, well, that should be a very difficult path, and they will have to be very judicious about how they spend their Dark Pips, but their real struggles will be with their actions.

Of course, if they want to be a ruthless, Dark Side anti-hero, that should be easy enough. The trick there is playing the type of Bad Guy that decent people will even tolerate. I think too many fall into the trap of, "Well, I'm Evil with a capital E! Time to become a psycho!"