One can say "**** the X." And get tons of negative responses. (How dare you??? X people have rights too, you bigot)

Now, if One can say: "Help the X". and get none (Yeah, the poor need help. Someone better do something somewhere)

nowdays in the internet.

"The X are ****** because of YOU" (What me? I never did or saw something bad happened to the X. Screw you guys.)

Yeah, you get the average and put in the same basket as the agressor. Your message will be lost when you generalize like that. Put the listener on the defensive, that will help /sarcasm

Work your speech.
To make people empatize with the victim without "if you are not the victim, you are a victimizer".

One can say "**** the X." And get tons of negative responses. (How dare you??? X people have rights too, you bigot)

Now, if One can say: "Help the X". and get none (Yeah, the poor need help. Someone better do something somewhere)

nowdays in the internet.

"The X are ****** because of YOU" (What me? I never did or saw something bad happened to the X. Screw you guys.)

Yeah, you get the average and put in the same basket as the agressor. Your message will be lost when you generalize like that. Put the listener on the defensive, that will help /sarcasm

Work your speech.

To make people empatize with the victim without "if you are not the victim, you are a victimizer".

I agree. There is something called an emotional call to arms that needs to be done on the internet, because people can't see you - they don't think of you really as a person. To do that, you need to benchmark who you are to them, so they can get an image in their head of who you are.

In this case, she writer of the original post would reach a wider audience with less hostility if she benchmarked herself and let them see her as their sister, their girlfriend, their mom, their cousin, their friend.

But you cannot blame her for writing and ranting because it feels like she's been attacked all over. I understand the desire to do that, too.

My point wasn't that men have centuries of discrimination coming to them. It's that until we've had centuries of systemized, institutionalized racism and sexism heaped on us, what little racism and sexism we do experience doesn't balance the scales in the slightest.

Basically, "What about the mens?" isn't going to fly as an argument.

Even considering "balancing the scales" is a destructive approach. Collective responsibility based in skin colour is absurd, as is being prejudiced against anyone based on dead people they have no power over. I care about what people do, not what their great grandparents did or what a 14th century monarch who shares their skin colour did.

Besides, you've missed entirely what I was saying. Whether or not you think it's okay to tar all white men with the same brush doesn't change the fact that most don't, and if you open with "All white men are terrorists" you're going to win over about as many white men as Donald Trump wins over Muslims. Considering the people you're trying to change the behaviour of are white and male it's somewhat counterproductive, no?

At the same time, it would be nice if the internet-at-large could just deal with groups that don't conform precisely to the writing style they demand to be worthy of their empathy.

"We aren't the problem, YOU'RE THE PROBLEM"

The result of making nerds confront the idea that they too can be responsible for awful things

Again it doesn't matter if YOU don't see it

What matters is that we should accept it exists and be mindful of it when it does happen

AWKNOWLEDGING IT WONT HURT YOU AT ALL

Also something I really have to say as a nerd

We really need to get off our high horse and accept others into the community more

We are very clicky by nature because a lot of us for the longest time grew up liking the weird things and not being understood

And before you guys start saying things like "I'm not like that!" Or "I've never seen that"

I have in several places

It exists

Im not attacking you

Because no one ever lies do they...

You shouldn't believe anyone just because they come from a certain gender or ethnicity, trust but verify.

To do so just marks you out as gullible.

This is the problem

THIS RIGHT HERE

"Well you know, people lie"

YOU ARE CORRECT SIR

PEOPLE DO LIE

but people also tell the truth too

but hey because people lie it clearly doesn't exist within the community right?

We are the TRUE victims here

Clearly they just want to ruin it for us

right?

I have not said go on a witch hunt

I have not claimed that this woman's story is true or not

Look at my earlier posts

All I'm saying

Is that this problem DOES exist in our community and we should be mindful of it when we see it and AWKNOWLEDGE it

She doesn't open with "All white men are terrorists." The title is "Tabletop gaming has a white male terrorism problem." She's not saying ALL white men are doing this, but that all the ones that are doing are white men.

Just from my own experience, I can tell you that I've TRIED to get women into the game. My fiancé and my best friend, women both, and I have weekly game nights. We play Pandemic, Smash Up, D&D, and other definitely non casual games. We're all good at what we do and have a lot of fun.

I've tried several times to get them both into X-Wing and Imperial Assault, but neither of them are interested in competitive 1v1 gaming. The same goes for many of my X-Wing friends: they have wives who love to game but have little interest in miniatures wargaming. I will not speculate on the hows or the whys, but that's my experience is just that there's not much interest among women.

Of course the answer may be as simple as they feel uncomfortable. If that's the case it's up to them to overcome it. I said uncomfortable not unwelcome. If they are made to feel unwelcome then the onus is on us to change.

Respectfully, I disagree.

because I don't feel uncomfortable around men. I feel uncomfortable around men who gawk at my chest, who stare at my backside when I lean over a table to make an obstruction call, and I feel uncomfortable when someone tries to get me to show my geek ID cred.

That's not on me to overcome.

That isn't anyone trying to make me feel unwelcome. That's them making me feel uncomfortable.

I am a married man, but if I see a woman with some type of revealing top I sometimes catch myself looking and its not intentional. It would be like if a man had a half top on showing his stomach. I may not want to look, but I do because it is kind of there and revealing in some way. To me a revealing top is distracting. Yes it's a lot different with a woman because I think men are just attracted to curves. I feel bad about doing it when I catch myself. I feel bad about saying it, but hopefully I would not be the type that would make you feel uncomfortable. It would be by no means intentional at all.

How much longer till this thread gets locked?

At the same time, it would be nice if the internet-at-large could just deal with groups that don't conform precisely to the writing style they demand to be worthy of their empathy.

Exactly. If someone is repeatedly harrassed by white men, it doesn't really help if I feel offended by every bit of phrasing that might be construed as a generalization.

And frankly, it is a bit self-important if I would take every remark about white men personally. Sexism exists regardless of how I feel about it or how sexist I am. It exists in the gaming community and that deserves attention. There is little point in being defensive about it.

Arguments like this are impractical because it boils down to anecdotes. There is a woman who plays in my local circuit and she does very well, most everyone is friendly to her and she knows the game much better than a majority of players. Given that this is all I've seen of the greater problem then from my perspective there is zero problem, clearly there aren't more women because they don't want to play as opposed to feeling uninvited. I'm not trying to disparage what happens to people but to sit there and think that a whinge story, accurate or not, is going to change minds is folly.

One "whinge story" by itself? Maybe it's an isolated incident. Maybe somebody is making it up (though even then, what does it cost you to extend the benefit of the doubt to someone?).

But over the years, these "isolated incidents" start to pile up and create a trend that is difficult to ignore. Either from posts like this, things friends say, significant others who feel uncomfortable around your "gamer friends" or from incidents that you witness firsthand.

It sounds like you have a great, welcoming community around this game in your area. That's awesome. That's the way it should be. But that's not always the way it is.

At the quantity of X Wing events that take place, a few causes spread over several years would be called a statistical outlier in a statistics class.

At the same time, it would be nice if the internet-at-large could just deal with groups that don't conform precisely to the writing style they demand to be worthy of their empathy.

Exactly. If someone is repeatedly harrassed by white men, it doesn't really help if I feel offended by every bit of phrasing that might be construed as a generalization.

And frankly, it is a bit self-important if I would take every remark about white men personally. Sexism exists regardless of how I feel about it or how sexist I am. It exists in the gaming community and that deserves attention. There is little point in being defensive about it.

THANK YOU

At the same time, all these extra rules and codes of conduct really make male to female interaction way more complex than it really is. It goes both ways as well. HurricaneMaanne you mention not appreciating guys ogling your chest/rear bumper. That's fine, that's cool. Eyes up here. I get that, I appreciate that. Hell. I want that.

Random girl wearing tights/no shorts leaving far too little to the imagination - I don't want to see that.

I mean I'm actively trying not to look. It's not to say said girl isn't attractive, that's totally irrelevant. This is down to the don't stare / stare argument.

When is it ok/not ok.

Here's an example. Halcon last year. REALLY GLAD FOR MY STORMTROOPER HELMET! Because nearly naked young ladies dressed as anime characters are eye catching. Not trying to ogle. Not trying to sound like a perv, but let's be honest with ourselves. If something looks nice, you want to look at it.

Is this contradictory? Yeah it is. I don't want to look, and appear a perv, or create undue attention - rather focus on what i'm doing. But it's so **** hard not to look sometimes.

"We aren't the problem, YOU'RE THE PROBLEM"

The result of making nerds confront the idea that they too can be responsible for awful things

Again it doesn't matter if YOU don't see it

What matters is that we should accept it exists and be mindful of it when it does happen

AWKNOWLEDGING IT WONT HURT YOU AT ALL

Also something I really have to say as a nerd

We really need to get off our high horse and accept others into the community more

We are very clicky by nature because a lot of us for the longest time grew up liking the weird things and not being understood

And before you guys start saying things like "I'm not like that!" Or "I've never seen that"

I have in several places

It exists

Im not attacking you

Because no one ever lies do they...

You shouldn't believe anyone just because they come from a certain gender or ethnicity, trust but verify.

To do so just marks you out as gullible.

1. What does it cost you to believe a person who claims that they have been hurt?

2. "Trust but verify," is fine as long as there is a way to verify, which does. not. exist. for most forms of harassment or abuse/assault. This is a common thread if you look at the stories of people who come forward about these issues. Is this woman required to show you CCTV footage of getting groped? Dates, times, receipts? Sworn affidavits from a dozen bystanders? At what point does something get "proven?"

3. What insidious motive do you believe a person claiming to have been victimized in this way has? How does being visible about this and becoming a lightning rod for more harassment, and for more people to attack her character, benefit her?

4. What does it cost you to believe a person who claims that they have been hurt?

The tiny spaceships are cool, but the real victories in Star Wars have always been won by the power of compassion.

Of course the answer may be as simple as they feel uncomfortable. If that's the case it's up to them to overcome it. I said uncomfortable not unwelcome. If they are made to feel unwelcome then the onus is on us to change.

Respectfully, I disagree.

because I don't feel uncomfortable around men. I feel uncomfortable around men who gawk at my chest, who stare at my backside when I lean over a table to make an obstruction call, and I feel uncomfortable when someone tries to get me to show my geek ID cred.

That's not on me to overcome.

That isn't anyone trying to make me feel unwelcome. That's them making me feel uncomfortable.

I am a married man, but if I see a woman with some type of revealing top I sometimes catch myself looking and its not intentional. It would be like if a man had a half top on showing his stomach. I may not want to look, but I do because it is kind of there and revealing in some way. To me a revealing top is distracting. Yes it's a lot different with a woman because I think men are just attracted to curves. I feel bad about doing it when I catch myself. I feel bad about saying it, but hopefully I would not be the type that would make you feel uncomfortable. It would be by no means intentional at all.

Oh you can 100% tell when someone is staring to stare, and when someone catches a glance. But I would be wont to point out that you mentioned "revealing" tops. And trust me when I say I am uncomfortable wearing shorts in the Florida summer because I feel like I'm calling attention to my self in game stores. The stares happen in a turtleneck, too. It's not the clothes. It's the gross, creepy, drooling over my body parts that causes the problem.

Hi.

I've been going back and forth on if I wanted to weigh in on this and I've decided I do.

I'm a 25 year old female TO at my local game store. I was a TO/Judge/Marshall/whatever a store championship that created a 14+ page thread here with another woman. I will also be TOing/Marshalling at the regionals my store is hosting (so if you're coming to the sunshine state you'll get to see my smiling face bright and early for registration).

I can't help but laugh as I read this thread, because it's proving something I've said to my fiancé (a regular poster here and the person who runs our local x-wing league) many times - men respect other men more than they respect women.

I've been in gaming for a while. I'm actually the one who begged my fiancé to start a DnD group. Sure, I joined x-wing to spend more time with him, but also because it's fun. Here's some things I've noticed.

- Since being engaged I don't get the sexual harassment I used to get. I used to be told that I was nothing but a hole, that my opinion didn't matter and I needed to "get in the kitchen". I used to no be able to tell someone 'no' without them going on about how "oh you gamer girls are all alike, you don't want to talk to anyone you're just here to be told you look good. Well I'm not going to do that, you're average at best" and other hurt nonsense. Since I got a ring on my finger, guys don't do that kind of stuff. Why? Because they RESPECT MY FIANCE MORE THAN THEY RESPECT ME. My no doesn't mean anything, but the idea that they could be encroaching on another man's "territory" does, so they back off.

- The most obvious way I've been treated like **** happens daily. It comes from players holding up ships and saying, "oh yeah? Then what's this?" It comes from my fellow TO getting asked if she "even plays x-wing". It comes from people looking to my fiancé or another man for confirmation of what I say because they don't trust that I know the rules. Judgments are passed about me because of what's between my legs that would never be considered if I had a beard. Like a spectator to a tournament yelling at me, calling me "hysterical" (which, if you look up the roots of the word is gendered and, for the situation, completely inappropriate).

The important thing to remember is you lose nothing from believing a victim. And I can believe what she said, because they have happened to me.

Women are PEOPLE. We are not there to give you something pretty to look at. Treat us like people, and don't push yourself onto a woman who tells you no. I am in a male dominated field, and I have had customers call me a "little girl" at work. It is not just gaming, it is EVERYWHERE.

But in the gaming community the men have a reputation for casual sexism because of things like gamergate, because so many women feel like they walk into a game store and have to be on guard.

At gencon last year, the Doubleclicks played at the Concert Against Humanity. And they played a song that really spoke to me, because they introduced it and said, "Hey you guys need to listen to this, because it can change a lot of things." (paraphrase)

I'll post it now, because ultimately, my point is this. I DO NOT because most gamers are rapists or prone to sexual assault. But I do think they are prone to not letting me in their world if I don't know who illustrated that issue of spiderman. Or who originally piloted that ship in the expanded universe. That's the type of sexism I've experienced.

Your mileage may vary, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Rjy5yW1gQ

Thank you for weighing in on this HurricaneMaanen. Thank you for providing a perspective most of us do not have and could not experience.

This isn't about the blatant and the obvious. It is about how we treat others. I honestly couldn't say I would call a guy out on knowledge of the game until it came up in gameplay. I hope I would extend the same courtesy to a woman, but I had not looked at myself in the mirror on that issue.

If it comes down to knowing a specific faction of nerd culture, in some areas I will do very well, in some I will not. I sure wouldn't want to be called out on it, and I'm sure no one else does either, no matter the color of their skin or the way their body was made. Yes, there can be defensive flippancy in topics like this, but I'm thankful that some people are actually expressing thoughtful responses and showing how our X-Wing gaming culture is affecting those around us, both good and bad.

At the same time, all these extra rules and codes of conduct really make male to female interaction way more complex than it really is. It goes both ways as well. HurricaneMaanne you mention not appreciating guys ogling your chest/rear bumper. That's fine, that's cool. Eyes up here. I get that, I appreciate that. Hell. I want that.

Random girl wearing tights/no shorts leaving far too little to the imagination - I don't want to see that.

I mean I'm actively trying not to look. It's not to say said girl isn't attractive, that's totally irrelevant. This is down to the don't stare / stare argument.

When is it ok/not ok.

Here's an example. Halcon last year. REALLY GLAD FOR MY STORMTROOPER HELMET! Because nearly naked young ladies dressed as anime characters are eye catching. Not trying to ogle. Not trying to sound like a perv, but let's be honest with ourselves. If something looks nice, you want to look at it.

Is this contradictory? Yeah it is. I don't want to look, and appear a perv, or create undue attention - rather focus on what i'm doing. But it's so **** hard not to look sometimes.

It's really not hard

And even if it is

It's your responsibility to have self control

Not theirs

At the same time, all these extra rules and codes of conduct really make male to female interaction way more complex than it really is. It goes both ways as well. HurricaneMaanne you mention not appreciating guys ogling your chest/rear bumper. That's fine, that's cool. Eyes up here. I get that, I appreciate that. Hell. I want that.

Random girl wearing tights/no shorts leaving far too little to the imagination - I don't want to see that.

I mean I'm actively trying not to look. It's not to say said girl isn't attractive, that's totally irrelevant. This is down to the don't stare / stare argument.

When is it ok/not ok.

Here's an example. Halcon last year. REALLY GLAD FOR MY STORMTROOPER HELMET! Because nearly naked young ladies dressed as anime characters are eye catching. Not trying to ogle. Not trying to sound like a perv, but let's be honest with ourselves. If something looks nice, you want to look at it.

Is this contradictory? Yeah it is. I don't want to look, and appear a perv, or create undue attention - rather focus on what i'm doing. But it's so **** hard not to look sometimes.

Look, but don't stare. It's not that hard. I mean, they went through the trouble of making the costume, they want to be seen. But they want to be seen as an enthusiastic fan, not as a piece of meat to be leered at. And nothing they wear gives anyone the right to treat them as such.

1. What does it cost you to believe a person who claims that they have been hurt?

2. "Trust but verify," is fine as long as there is a way to verify, which does. not. exist. for most forms of harassment or abuse/assault. This is a common thread if you look at the stories of people who come forward about these issues. Is this woman required to show you CCTV footage of getting groped? Dates, times, receipts? Sworn affidavits from a dozen bystanders? At what point does something get "proven?"

3. What insidious motive do you believe a person claiming to have been victimized in this way has? How does being visible about this and becoming a lightning rod for more harassment, and for more people to attack her character, benefit her?

4. What does it cost you to believe a person who claims that they have been hurt?

The tiny spaceships are cool, but the real victories in Star Wars have always been won by the power of compassion.

So there is something called re-victimization. It's a statistic that shows once a woman has been sexually assaulted once, it's more likely to happen again. And she's less likely to report it the second time because people don't believe you unless you have an overwhelming amount of proof. The fact is, there is no "proof" that is definitive. Because someone can argue that it was consensual, she liked it rough, it was a game they played where she pretended they didn't know each other.

It hurts nothing to believe.

But it hurts -everything- to attack and say "pics or it didn't happen".

And I know first hand.

One can say "**** the X." And get tons of negative responses. (How dare you??? X people have rights too, you bigot)

Now, if One can say: "Help the X". and get none (Yeah, the poor need help. Someone better do something somewhere)

nowdays in the internet.

"The X are ****** because of YOU" (What me? I never did or saw something bad happened to the X. Screw you guys.)

Yeah, you get the average and put in the same basket as the agressor. Your message will be lost when you generalize like that. Put the listener on the defensive, that will help /sarcasm

Work your speech.

To make people empatize with the victim without "if you are not the victim, you are a victimizer".

I agree. There is something called an emotional call to arms that needs to be done on the internet, because people can't see you - they don't think of you really as a person. To do that, you need to benchmark who you are to them, so they can get an image in their head of who you are.

In this case, she writer of the original post would reach a wider audience with less hostility if she benchmarked herself and let them see her as their sister, their girlfriend, their mom, their cousin, their friend.

But you cannot blame her for writing and ranting because it feels like she's been attacked all over. I understand the desire to do that, too.

And we can't blade people by responding poorly to that testemonial.

In law there's tons of ways to discredit someone with a speech way more rational than that.

And that's in law

If you want support to a cause, that's not the way to do it IMHO.

Hipotetically... "who are we?" If WE are the x-wing community. And we are a good one. We are not part of the problem.

And we could be part of the solution, but not with that atitude. See what I'm trying to say? But that's not the question.

The question is neither "HOW CAN WE BE PART OF THE SOLUTION?", why not?

At the same time, it would be nice if the internet-at-large could just deal with groups that don't conform precisely to the writing style they demand to be worthy of their empathy.

That is imho a subset problem from the problem described in "This video will make you angry."

Arguments like this are impractical because it boils down to anecdotes. There is a woman who plays in my local circuit and she does very well, most everyone is friendly to her and she knows the game much better than a majority of players. Given that this is all I've seen of the greater problem then from my perspective there is zero problem, clearly there aren't more women because they don't want to play as opposed to feeling uninvited. I'm not trying to disparage what happens to people but to sit there and think that a whinge story, accurate or not, is going to change minds is folly.

One "whinge story" by itself? Maybe it's an isolated incident. Maybe somebody is making it up (though even then, what does it cost you to extend the benefit of the doubt to someone?).

But over the years, these "isolated incidents" start to pile up and create a trend that is difficult to ignore. Either from posts like this, things friends say, significant others who feel uncomfortable around your "gamer friends" or from incidents that you witness firsthand.

It sounds like you have a great, welcoming community around this game in your area. That's awesome. That's the way it should be. But that's not always the way it is.

At the quantity of X Wing events that take place, a few causes spread over several years would be called a statistical outlier in a statistics class.

I think it depends on the sample you're looking at.

If you're looking at # of cases of harassment against women/non-males reported at X-wing Miniatures tournaments worldwide, I suspect you're right, although I don't have the numbers in front of me. Because we can only measure reported cases. Because many of these events are predominantly, if not exclusively, male.

Because a great way to quantify the experiences of women in the hobby is to erase them.

Thank you for weighing in on this HurricaneMaanen. Thank you for providing a perspective most of us do not have and could not experience.

This isn't about the blatant and the obvious. It is about how we treat others. I honestly couldn't say I would call a guy out on knowledge of the game until it came up in gameplay. I hope I would extend the same courtesy to a woman, but I had not looked at myself in the mirror on that issue.

If it comes down to knowing a specific faction of nerd culture, in some areas I will do very well, in some I will not. I sure wouldn't want to be called out on it, and I'm sure no one else does either, no matter the color of their skin or the way their body was made. Yes, there can be defensive flippancy in topics like this, but I'm thankful that some people are actually expressing thoughtful responses and showing how our X-Wing gaming culture is affecting those around us, both good and bad.

I hope you can look in the mirror and say you wouldn't treat someone differently because of their gender. But we have to announce that our word is final as TOs because people try to get us overruled. They try to argue. Because clearly they know the game better than some girl in a glittered "Tournament Organizer" shirt.

The ultimate message is be excellent to one another. We're all just people trying to have fun.

Trusting without checking cost the guy Rolling Stones went after a lot.

Arguments like this are impractical because it boils down to anecdotes. There is a woman who plays in my local circuit and she does very well, most everyone is friendly to her and she knows the game much better than a majority of players. Given that this is all I've seen of the greater problem then from my perspective there is zero problem, clearly there aren't more women because they don't want to play as opposed to feeling uninvited. I'm not trying to disparage what happens to people but to sit there and think that a whinge story, accurate or not, is going to change minds is folly.

One "whinge story" by itself? Maybe it's an isolated incident. Maybe somebody is making it up (though even then, what does it cost you to extend the benefit of the doubt to someone?).

But over the years, these "isolated incidents" start to pile up and create a trend that is difficult to ignore. Either from posts like this, things friends say, significant others who feel uncomfortable around your "gamer friends" or from incidents that you witness firsthand.

It sounds like you have a great, welcoming community around this game in your area. That's awesome. That's the way it should be. But that's not always the way it is.

At the quantity of X Wing events that take place, a few causes spread over several years would be called a statistical outlier in a statistics class.

I think it depends on the sample you're looking at.

If you're looking at # of cases of harassment against women/non-males reported at X-wing Miniatures tournaments worldwide, I suspect you're right, although I don't have the numbers in front of me. Because we can only measure reported cases. Because many of these events are predominantly, if not exclusively, male.

Because a great way to quantify the experiences of women in the hobby is to erase them.

Also let's not forget what goes unreported for fear of backlash.