Shouldn't that be "Fly casual, crush your enemies, and leave the toilet seat down"?

Fly Casual is so 2015. 2016 is now FCCELTSD. C'mon people, it can be a new trend!

See also: ARGHKITTENS

This said, I get it. Witk the "what ship is this then"? There is literally no way I could reply to that nicely.

It'd be a K-wing shoved somewhere uncomfortable.

With a Raider Corvette chaser. Point down so it hurts more.

Why are ballet classes 99% female? could it be it just doesn't appeal to most guys?

Why is makeup 99% used by women?

Why are yoga classes 99% women?

Why is quilting 99% done by women?

Is it perhaps because we just like different stuff?

Or it's because of social pressure - yoga was a man's thing in Hindu tradition and we're starting to see a big push for gender-neutral forms over here in the west as well. Turns out when you take away all the presumptions and gendered marketing you're much more likely to see people take it up and get the benefits. I don't see a major reason why that couldn't be the same for all those and X-Wing - presuming the status quo is some kind of inherent inevitability seems slightly silly.

I would love to be sexually harassed. But me too fuzzy.

F-

Come back when you can type in shyriwook, then maybe people will take you seriously. Also upgrade your humor routines.

Making a joke about not caring who your enemy is as long as you can crush them into submission, is much more appropriate then making a joke about a minority group that has a serious issue.

Fly Casual, and crush your enemies.

****! GIVE THAT Y-WING HIS ELITE POSTER TALENT!

See also: ARGHKITTENS

This said, I get it. Witk the "what ship is this then"? There is literally no way I could reply to that nicely.

It'd be a K-wing shoved somewhere uncomfortable.

With a Raider Corvette chaser. Point down so it hurts more.

No one would expect you to respond nicely. But there are a lot of gendered slurs that I get if I don't.

Also: I didn't. I know the guy well so I completely called him out on everything. He may have been "joking" but it wasn't a joke that would've been made if I sported a robust, red beard.

Sorry but what is thee point of this topic?? Why don't women play games?

It's not really all that complex is it?

You can't seriously expect both genders to enjoy the same things in equal amounts.

Guys like blown stuff up gals don't in general.

That is bull. PEOPLE like different things. No one is expecting equal amounts, but, given that how popular Star Wars is among women, you do have to question why gaming in general is 99% male.

Uhm, videogames are these days with 54% or so females ;-)

And to add to statistic some anecdotal evidence: My flgs has usually 30~40% females browsing the goods. Admittedly it primary an board game and p&p store, which has on top of it ffg miniature games. But 99% sounds irrational even for tabletops.

Alright. sod it. I've seen this statistic enough times now.

Time to debunk the heck out of it.

Too much of that 54% is casual games like Candy crush. We still need more real gaming girls.

True Scotsman facility. And lets be honest, if we go that road that most of the male gamers are not worthy of my hardcore standards either. Heck, most will not even reach my wife's standard who owns $600 worth of sim equipment just to play star citizen. ;-)

But indeed, casual games are an entry stage for people to get into gaming and female gamer used to be 'rare', so indeed the category of "core gamer" the numbers are still different even when they are on the rise there as well.

Nice. I was looking a t a $500 Flight yoke for my more specialist sims. It has to wait though, my responsibilities demand I put spending on other things.

Still, that difference between casual and core gamer in statistics is important. I know that female core gamers are on the rise, but they are not quite there yet.

Indeed, female core gamers are not yet there. And one of the reasons might be male core gamers. Still I love to make fun of casual gamers and dnd players for not playing "the real thing" like everyone else, but I think it is important to include all kind of gamers into gamer culture. Excluding casual gamers as not "real gamers" is just as silly as excluding console gamers, etc …

Besides, my wife was the one who brought me to X-Wing. My AoR GM tries to blow up plenty of stuff and amusingly enough talks to me like I am some kind of noob when she tells us one of her league of legends stories … it so hilarious yet ******* annoying, one day I really must tell her that I am not a fifty casual gamer either.

Why are ballet classes 99% female? could it be it just doesn't appeal to most guys?

Why is makeup 99% used by women?

Why are yoga classes 99% women?

Why is quilting 99% done by women?

Is it perhaps because we just like different stuff?

Or it's because of social pressure - yoga was a man's thing in Hindu tradition and we're starting to see a big push for gender-neutral forms over here in the west as well. Turns out when you take away all the presumptions and gendered marketing you're much more likely to see people take it up and get the benefits. I don't see a major reason why that couldn't be the same for all those and X-Wing - presuming the status quo is some kind of inherent inevitability seems slightly silly.

Yup. Also a lot of makeup designers are men. So are a lot of the people who design high heeled shoes and women's clothing. Neither clothes or makeup are a woman thing.

Shouldn't that be "Fly casual, crush your enemies, and leave the toilet seat down"?

Leaving the toilet seat down is sexist. You think a woman is incapable of putting ti down herself, she needs a strong man to put it down for her?

High heels used to be a masculine thing.

Social concepts of fashion, sexuality etc etc etc are in constant flux.

Arguments like this are impractical because it boils down to anecdotes. There is a woman who plays in my local circuit and she does very well, most everyone is friendly to her and she knows the game much better than a majority of players. Given that this is all I've seen of the greater problem then from my perspective there is zero problem, clearly there aren't more women because they don't want to play as opposed to feeling uninvited. I'm not trying to disparage what happens to people but to sit there and think that a whinge story, accurate or not, is going to change minds is folly.

One "whinge story" by itself? Maybe it's an isolated incident. Maybe somebody is making it up (though even then, what does it cost you to extend the benefit of the doubt to someone?).

But over the years, these "isolated incidents" start to pile up and create a trend that is difficult to ignore. Either from posts like this, things friends say, significant others who feel uncomfortable around your "gamer friends" or from incidents that you witness firsthand.

It sounds like you have a great, welcoming community around this game in your area. That's awesome. That's the way it should be. But that's not always the way it is.

For what it's worth, the awful things that have happened to me have happened by men of all nationalities - not just white men.

But it is interesting that most men in gaming like to pretend because it doesn't happen to them, it doesn't happen. It's much easier to cry foul than to take an introspective look at the community you are a part of and realize that, holy crap, my friends can be complete jerks to women.

But then again, not everyone would find the things I described up there as being a jerk. So you know... Can't fix a problem people think isn't a problem.

Also, not all men necessarily pretend it doesn't happen, it's just never happened to them or in their environment, so they may believe you, but don't know how to deal with the issue, so they ignore it using the justification that "if it doesn't happen in my area, I can't do anything about it, so I'll just ignore the problem"

Of course I could be reading that wrong because I rarely interact with the group in my area. I mostly just play with my friends who play the game.

Easy way to address the issues: If you see something, say something. It doesn't happen in my local group, because we have a handful of women. But it happens at Store Champs and what not where non-local players come. So just keep an eye on it, and if you see it happening call the person out on it. Straight up. "That's a super jerk thing to say man, why would you say that?"

It's easy to ignore a problem. I wish I could ignore it too. But I can't.

Exactly. if we as a community want to be awesome, we have to BE awesome. We can't just say it, think it, and repeat it to ourselves. If you see someone being a jerk, say something. If you are shy, non-confrontational, or afraid, then tell someone who can help. TOs, Store Employees, Convention Workers, and in extreme cases police officers. If they can't or won't do anything, then keep moving up the chain.

If you see another gamer casually slap someone (not just a woman) on the ass, call them on it. At worst it they will say "It's ok that is my Husband/wife/significant other" and you can just say "Ahh ok, sorry didn't know". If we want to maintain being an awesome community it takes work from the community as a whole. We get to set the standards for decorum, and acceptable behavior. Do not waste that gift.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

So...

Fly Casual, Crush your Enemies, don't leave the toilet seat down and wear make up?

High heels used to be a masculine thing.

Social concepts of fashion, sexuality etc etc etc are in constant flux.

Exactly. They were invented to make it easier to grip stirrups for horseback riding. It further proves my point that there is no need for things to be separated by the sexes, and that things don't have to be a "well girls just don't like it". We're all the same gender in the womb until a certain point. That's why all of us have specks on our chest - some useful, some not.

Easy way to address the issues: If you see something, say something. It doesn't happen in my local group, because we have a handful of women. But it happens at Store Champs and what not where non-local players come. So just keep an eye on it, and if you see it happening call the person out on it. Straight up. "That's a super jerk thing to say man, why would you say that?"

It's easy to ignore a problem. I wish I could ignore it too. But I can't.

Exactly. if we as a community want to be awesome, we have to BE awesome. We can't just say it, think it, and repeat it to ourselves. If you see someone being a jerk, say something. If you are shy, non-confrontational, or afraid, then tell someone who can help. TOs, Store Employees, Convention Workers, and in extreme cases police officers. If they can't or won't do anything, then keep moving up the chain.

If you see another gamer casually slap someone (not just a woman) on the ass, call them on it. At worst it they will say "It's ok that is my Husband/wife/significant other" and you can just say "Ahh ok, sorry didn't know". If we want to maintain being an awesome community it takes work from the community as a whole. We get to set the standards for decorum, and acceptable behavior. Do not waste that gift.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

This is great. Exactly. If you see someone treating someone -ANYONE- in your community as less than, make it known.

But haven't you heard you can't be racist or sexist against straight white men.

Yes, us poor, downtrodden white men who have CONTROLLED THE WORLD FOR A THOUSAND YEARS.

Here is another part of the problem, this notion of collective responsibility for the acts of dead people on the grounds of something as superficial as race.

Was anyone in this thread a leading figure in an 19th century European Empire? No. Anyone one of the monarchs leading the Crusades? No. Anyone owned a slave plantation? No.

You can't blame someone for the acts of long dead people over which they have no power but who they share a nationality and skin colour with. It's mad. You can't treat groups of people like a big hive entity.

Judge people for their own deeds, not the deeds of long dead people they have no power over. If someone's grandmother was an axe murderer, you don't lock them in prison.

My point wasn't that men have centuries of discrimination coming to them. It's that until we've had centuries of systemized, institutionalized racism and sexism heaped on us, what little racism and sexism we do experience doesn't balance the scales in the slightest.

Basically, "What about the mens?" isn't going to fly as an argument.

NO Just NO.

NO ONE deserves to be discriminated against. NO ONE.

This is not about evening the scales, it is not about balance, it is not about the past.

It is about the future, and how we as a species should treat ourselves.

An Eye for an Eye makes the whole world blind.

No one would expect you to respond nicely. But there are a lot of gendered slurs that I get if I don't.

Also: I didn't. I know the guy well so I completely called him out on everything. He may have been "joking" but it wasn't a joke that would've been made if I sported a robust, red beard.

That's true, and that's a real issue. People should be called out for making that kind of "joke".

I maintain though that time itself, and the ever evolving social construct we live in is fixing it.

More and more people, as a general percentage know that this kind of attitude is not ok.

So yeah.

Fly Casual.

F**k SJWs, they can all go to hell. The PC brigade don't help, they just overblow everything.

and can we PLEASE HAVE OFFICIAL XG-1 GUNBOATS NOW?

Part of me is offended (the white male) and part of me is saddened (the husband of 24 years and father of a boy and 2 girls.)

I like to hope I am part of the solution and not the problem.

I've taught my son that being part of a man is respecting women and protecting them from predators is our responsibility. He often speaks his mind and takes action when he sees ANYONE being mistreated - regardless of race or gender.

I've also taught and encouraged my daughters to be strong, independent women and to be aware that unfortunately, some men will try to take advantage of them. One is in college and the other in high school and they fortunately have not had to deal with anything like the young women describes in her article.

The young woman is justifiably upset by what she had endured, so I think it's important to realize that stuff like this does and will happen, but it is caused by a minority of people with problems.

Our responsibility as good gamers is to protect our community and make sure women are freely included and as possible prevent problems.

In terms of why women don't participate, I will say that my daughter loves Star Wars, but in her one experience trying X-Wing - just didn't like it (even though she beat me.)

I personally believe men and women are wired differently and some things that appeal to a majority of men will not appeal to a majority of women.

Society typically teaches us to mind your own business and be responsible for only yourself. Unfortunately this conditions us to ignore problems that we should be stepping up deal with.

I'm tired of the white male bashing. No, we are not part of the problem and I don't believe the original blog post either. It's another hit piece with an agenda. "Agenda Theater" as very well put by someone else on this forum. The topics put forward are serious but how can they be linked to a white race issue? Total garbage and doesn't belong on the forum.

Did you even read the post before dismissing it completely?

There's a reason why this behavior is linked to white males...

Here is a very small example of the problem.

Part 1: "Did you even read the post before dismissing it completely?"

This part is valid. He's skimmed the post and as soon as he's read it as an attack on him he's dismissed the rest. The confrontation tone is likely to turn him against you rather than win him over but you are pointing out something he did.

Part 2: "There's a reason why this behaviour is linked to white males..."

And here you stab yourself in the foot. You've just linked him skimming over a post and getting the wrong idea to his race and gender. You've linked him taking offence at what he believes to be an unjustified attack on him based on race and gender to his race and gender. You've just validated the stance you were trying to change.

This is a tone argument.

People like this will never change. Hopefully pointing out why they are wrong and showing how irrational they are will allow other people to see the error of their ways.

"We aren't the problem, YOU'RE THE PROBLEM"

The result of making nerds confront the idea that they too can be responsible for awful things

Again it doesn't matter if YOU don't see it

What matters is that we should accept it exists and be mindful of it when it does happen

AWKNOWLEDGING IT WONT HURT YOU AT ALL

Also something I really have to say as a nerd

We really need to get off our high horse and accept others into the community more

We are very clicky by nature because a lot of us for the longest time grew up liking the weird things and not being understood

And before you guys start saying things like "I'm not like that!" Or "I've never seen that"

I have in several places

It exists

Im not attacking you

Thank you, HurricaneMaanen. While the very unpleasant people such as those described in the OP's link exist, we miss the shrapnel in the fireworks. I sure did until you posted this.

But I do think they are prone to not letting me in their world if I don't know who illustrated that issue of spiderman. Or who originally piloted that ship in the expanded universe. That's the type of sexism I've experienced.

With all the hyperbole being thrown around (it opened with White Male Terrorists) the important details like this get overlooked.

My first thought on reading this part was "but if they do that to everyone then surely they're not being sexist?"

And then I thought about it more.

We don't do that to everyone. Or rather, not in the same way.

It's not hostility, it's disbelief.

There's no sexist intent behind it, but for so many the initial response to discovering a woman in a male dominated interest area is skepticism. The automatic response is to get them to prove it, to ask them for their nerd credentials. How singled out do you feel when you're the only one asked for your ID?

And there it is. We get so focused on arguing over cases of misogynistic physical threat that we ignore the far more common occurence of unintentionally making women feel out of place.

I think you are victim of a misconception here. Sexism nor racism needs malice. All they need are prejudiced. This kind disbelief can be already sexist if you add a position of power or hierarchy, which in this case is simply the ability to accept or decline your nerd credentials and it becomes just your daily dose of sexism. And it encourages as well more hostile forms.

And besides that, I really do not get what the source of that skepticism is. Are american geeks all traumatized nerds with deep wounds from high school or what? Treat females just as inclusive as males and you usually end up with gaming communities way a lot more women than statistics would suggest and that simply fact looks in light of this topic quite troubling. Is something wrong with some of you guys when you have so few female gamer friends?

High heels used to be a masculine thing.

Social concepts of fashion, sexuality etc etc etc are in constant flux.

Exactly. They were invented to make it easier to grip stirrups for horseback riding. It further proves my point that there is no need for things to be separated by the sexes, and that things don't have to be a "well girls just don't like it". We're all the same gender in the womb until a certain point. That's why all of us have specks on our chest - some useful, some not.

Easy way to address the issues: If you see something, say something. It doesn't happen in my local group, because we have a handful of women. But it happens at Store Champs and what not where non-local players come. So just keep an eye on it, and if you see it happening call the person out on it. Straight up. "That's a super jerk thing to say man, why would you say that?"

It's easy to ignore a problem. I wish I could ignore it too. But I can't.

Exactly. if we as a community want to be awesome, we have to BE awesome. We can't just say it, think it, and repeat it to ourselves. If you see someone being a jerk, say something. If you are shy, non-confrontational, or afraid, then tell someone who can help. TOs, Store Employees, Convention Workers, and in extreme cases police officers. If they can't or won't do anything, then keep moving up the chain.

If you see another gamer casually slap someone (not just a woman) on the ass, call them on it. At worst it they will say "It's ok that is my Husband/wife/significant other" and you can just say "Ahh ok, sorry didn't know". If we want to maintain being an awesome community it takes work from the community as a whole. We get to set the standards for decorum, and acceptable behavior. Do not waste that gift.The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.~ Edmund Burke

This is great. Exactly. If you see someone treating someone -ANYONE- in your community as less than, make it known.

Yeah, but what if they're flying turrets though?

there simply aren't as many women interested in these sorts of games?

But why?

Does it really matter?

Somewhere along the line it was decided that the composition of a group had to reflect the composition of society. It went from Equal Opportunity to quotas. The assumption was evidently made that in a sample population of any group, that sample should be representative of society as a whole. It made a lot of assumptions. Those same assumptions are being made now in reference to gaming.

To answer my initial question. It might matter as a research topic in sociology. It might matter if the question is being asked by a gaming company to increase sales and get a larger chunk of the market. The question might be asked why I don't play MTG. I have no interest in it. From what I've seen of it, it reminds me of the old card game "War". Is it even relevant to ask why a 64 yo, widowed white guy isn't included in a MTG match? I think not.

The answer to the OPs question might be as simple as they weren't exposed to game play when young. It might be as simple as women are wired differently and the females that play games are the exceptions to the norm. Of course the answer may be as simple as they feel uncomfortable. If that's the case it's up to them to overcome it. I said uncomfortable not unwelcome. If they are made to feel unwelcome then the onus is on us to change.

BTW, can we get your source showing game stores are more dangerous for women than anywhere else? Something non-anictodle.

Show me where I said that game stores are more dangerous for women than anywhere else. A direct quote, please.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

Also, "anictodle" isn't actually a word. Perhaps you meant anecdotal?

BTW, can we get your source showing game stores are more dangerous for women than anywhere else? Something non-anictodle.

Show me where I said that game stores are more dangerous for women than anywhere else. A direct quote, please.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

Also, "anictodle" isn't actually a word. Perhaps you meant anecdotal?

Show me Where I quoted you?

Oh no, I miss spelt a word. I guess my argument is invalidated.... °_°

AWKNOWLEDGING IT WONT HURT YOU AT ALL

This is a point I've tried for a while to make..

You lose nothing but acknowledging the crap a victim has gone through. You lose NOTHING by acknowledging that this is a real thing that exists.

Of course the answer may be as simple as they feel uncomfortable. If that's the case it's up to them to overcome it. I said uncomfortable not unwelcome. If they are made to feel unwelcome then the onus is on us to change.

Respectfully, I disagree.

because I don't feel uncomfortable around men. I feel uncomfortable around men who gawk at my chest, who stare at my backside when I lean over a table to make an obstruction call, and I feel uncomfortable when someone tries to get me to show my geek ID cred.

That's not on me to overcome.

That isn't anyone trying to make me feel unwelcome. That's them making me feel uncomfortable.

"We aren't the problem, YOU'RE THE PROBLEM"

The result of making nerds confront the idea that they too can be responsible for awful things

Again it doesn't matter if YOU don't see it

What matters is that we should accept it exists and be mindful of it when it does happen

AWKNOWLEDGING IT WONT HURT YOU AT ALL

Also something I really have to say as a nerd

We really need to get off our high horse and accept others into the community more

We are very clicky by nature because a lot of us for the longest time grew up liking the weird things and not being understood

And before you guys start saying things like "I'm not like that!" Or "I've never seen that"

I have in several places

It exists

Im not attacking you

Because no one ever lies do they...

You shouldn't believe anyone just because they come from a certain gender or ethnicity, trust but verify.

To do so just marks you out as gullible.