I don't care what race/gender/sexual orientation/whatever else I missed I play against as long as I can watch the tears flow freely from their eyes as my Y-wings execute a perfect maneuver eviscerating their list, and leaving their ships behind vaporized to forever vanish into the dusts of obscurity, and be forgotten in the annals in history. This is my joy in life, and this is why I live.

I was supposed to say something like that, right?

Not really, more interesting would have been if you did notice some issues or maybe if talking to your females friends can bring up similar issues in your local area. Which would be totally ****** up for sure, but ignorance is imho not bliss.

I'll be honest, I don't really know any women that play X-wing. X-wing isn't super big in my area though. My sister plays it occasionally when she visits. I've never seen this kind of thing happen before, although I don't doubt that it hasn't happened somewhere.

YwingAce! What is best in life?

"Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their significant others."

Careful, you just made another stereotype that could get you in trouble (especially in this thread)

Conan is an eternal classics. It is a quote worthy of the moment xD

"HK-47 - Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope... Love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticule, and together, achieving a singular purpose against statistically long odds."

I guess I should be relieved the most offensive thing I have to deal with at my game store is the D&D nerd who crop dusts roadkill farts across the X-wing tables through his cotton gym short wedgies. Buy some jeans to contain the tailwind, granny.

OMG - best laugh in a while!

Sorry but what is thee point of this topic?? Why don't women play games?

It's not really all that complex is it?

You can't seriously expect both genders to enjoy the same things in equal amounts.

Guys like blown stuff up gals don't in general.

That is bull. PEOPLE like different things. No one is expecting equal amounts, but, given that how popular Star Wars is among women, you do have to question why gaming in general is 99% male.

Uhm, videogames are these days with 54% or so females ;-)

And to add to statistic some anecdotal evidence: My flgs has usually 30~40% females browsing the goods. Admittedly it primary an board game and p&p store, which has on top of it ffg miniature games. But 99% sounds irrational even for tabletops.

Alright. sod it. I've seen this statistic enough times now.

Time to debunk the heck out of it.

Too much of that 54% is casual games like Candy crush. We still need more real gaming girls.

True Scotsman facility. And lets be honest, if we go that road than most of the male gamers are not worthy of my hardcore standards either. Heck, most will not even reach my wife's standard who owns $600 worth of sim equipment just to play star citizen. ;-)

But indeed, casual games are an entry stage for people to get into gaming and female gamer used to be 'rare', so indeed the category of "core gamer" the numbers are still different even when they are on the rise there as well.

- Since being engaged I don't get the sexual harassment I used to get. I used to be told that I was nothing but a hole, that my opinion didn't matter and I needed to "get in the kitchen". I used to no be able to tell someone 'no' without them going on about how "oh you gamer girls are all alike, you don't want to talk to anyone you're just here to be told you look good. Well I'm not going to do that, you're average at best" and other hurt nonsense. Since I got a ring on my finger, guys don't do that kind of stuff. Why? Because they RESPECT MY FIANCE MORE THAN THEY RESPECT ME. My no doesn't mean anything, but the idea that they could be encroaching on another man's "territory" does, so they back off.

- The most obvious way I've been treated like **** happens daily. It comes from players holding up ships and saying, "oh yeah? Then what's this?" It comes from my fellow TO getting asked if she "even plays x-wing". It comes from people looking to my fiancé or another man for confirmation of what I say because they don't trust that I know the rules. Judgments are passed about me because of what's between my legs that would never be considered if I had a beard. Like a spectator to a tournament yelling at me, calling me "hysterical" (which, if you look up the roots of the word is gendered and, for the situation, completely inappropriate).

I find the above to be very shocking and sad. More importantly however, it puts the complaints about 'white male bashing' in perspective. While I understand that sweeping generalizations about white men can be unfair, the offense some take at even very reasonably phrased testimonies of sexism and other discrimination is way out of proportion with what the actual victims go through.

Sorry but what is thee point of this topic?? Why don't women play games?

It's not really all that complex is it?

You can't seriously expect both genders to enjoy the same things in equal amounts.

Guys like blown stuff up gals don't in general.

That is bull. PEOPLE like different things. No one is expecting equal amounts, but, given that how popular Star Wars is among women, you do have to question why gaming in general is 99% male.

Not really. Most main stream gaming is about killing things.

I know plenty of women who game but most of them would not go near anything like battle field or warhammer.

They tend to prefer more social games like power grid, ticket to ride, dominion. Games that don't involve killing

Sorry but what is thee point of this topic?? Why don't women play games?

It's not really all that complex is it?

You can't seriously expect both genders to enjoy the same things in equal amounts.

Guys like blown stuff up gals don't in general.

That is bull. PEOPLE like different things. No one is expecting equal amounts, but, given that how popular Star Wars is among women, you do have to question why gaming in general is 99% male.

Uhm, videogames are these days with 54% or so females ;-)

And to add to statistic some anecdotal evidence: My flgs has usually 30~40% females browsing the goods. Admittedly it primary an board game and p&p store, which has on top of it ffg miniature games. But 99% sounds irrational even for tabletops.

Alright. sod it. I've seen this statistic enough times now.

Time to debunk the heck out of it.

Too much of that 54% is casual games like Candy crush. We still need more real gaming girls.

True Scotsman facility. And lets be honest, if we go that road that most of the male gamers are not worthy of my hardcore standards either. Heck, most will not even reach my wife's standard who owns $600 worth of sim equipment just to play star citizen. ;-)

But indeed, casual games are an entry stage for people to get into gaming and female gamer used to be 'rare', so indeed the category of "core gamer" the numbers are still different even when they are on the rise there as well.

Nice. I was looking a t a $500 Flight yoke for my more specialist sims. It has to wait though, my responsibilities demand I put spending on other things.

Still, that difference between casual and core gamer in statistics is important. I know that female core gamers are on the rise, but they are not quite there yet.

Sorry but what is thee point of this topic?? Why don't women play games?

It's not really all that complex is it?

You can't seriously expect both genders to enjoy the same things in equal amounts.

Guys like blown stuff up gals don't in general.

That is bull. PEOPLE like different things. No one is expecting equal amounts, but, given that how popular Star Wars is among women, you do have to question why gaming in general is 99% male.

Not really. Most main stream gaming is about killing things.

I know plenty of women who game but most of them would not go near anything like battle field or warhammer.

They tend to prefer more social games like power grid, ticket to ride, dominion. Games that don't involve killing

YES!

My wife loves CIV5 because she watches her cities grow.

She likes Banished, same reason.

Second a war breaks out in civ 5 I usually step in with a crusade force (I usually make a speech too) because she just doesn't do war well. Wheras I thrive on sacrificing the enemy to Khorne.

My wife also has no interest in x-wing, and really is pretty basic at any non turn based game. Her reactions just aren't there as she was never really big into gaming like I was.

- Since being engaged I don't get the sexual harassment I used to get. I used to be told that I was nothing but a hole, that my opinion didn't matter and I needed to "get in the kitchen". I used to no be able to tell someone 'no' without them going on about how "oh you gamer girls are all alike, you don't want to talk to anyone you're just here to be told you look good. Well I'm not going to do that, you're average at best" and other hurt nonsense. Since I got a ring on my finger, guys don't do that kind of stuff. Why? Because they RESPECT MY FIANCE MORE THAN THEY RESPECT ME. My no doesn't mean anything, but the idea that they could be encroaching on another man's "territory" does, so they back off.

- The most obvious way I've been treated like **** happens daily. It comes from players holding up ships and saying, "oh yeah? Then what's this?" It comes from my fellow TO getting asked if she "even plays x-wing". It comes from people looking to my fiancé or another man for confirmation of what I say because they don't trust that I know the rules. Judgments are passed about me because of what's between my legs that would never be considered if I had a beard. Like a spectator to a tournament yelling at me, calling me "hysterical" (which, if you look up the roots of the word is gendered and, for the situation, completely inappropriate).

I find the above to be very shocking and sad. More importantly however, it puts the complaints about 'white male bashing' in perspective. While I understand that sweeping generalizations about white men can be unfair, the offense some take at even very reasonably phrased testimonies of sexism and other discrimination is way out of proportion with what the actual victims go through.

For what it's worth, the awful things that have happened to me have happened by men of all nationalities - not just white men.

But it is interesting that most men in gaming like to pretend because it doesn't happen to them, it doesn't happen. It's much easier to cry foul than to take an introspective look at the community you are a part of and realize that, holy crap, my friends can be complete jerks to women.

But then again, not everyone would find the things I described up there as being a jerk. So you know... Can't fix a problem people think isn't a problem.

Thank you, HurricaneMaanen. While the very unpleasant people such as those described in the OP's link exist, we miss the shrapnel in the fireworks. I sure did until you posted this.

But I do think they are prone to not letting me in their world if I don't know who illustrated that issue of spiderman. Or who originally piloted that ship in the expanded universe. That's the type of sexism I've experienced.

With all the hyperbole being thrown around (it opened with White Male Terrorists) the important details like this get overlooked.

My first thought on reading this part was "but if they do that to everyone then surely they're not being sexist?"

And then I thought about it more.

We don't do that to everyone. Or rather, not in the same way.

It's not hostility, it's disbelief.

There's no sexist intent behind it, but for so many the initial response to discovering a woman in a male dominated interest area is skepticism. The automatic response is to get them to prove it, to ask them for their nerd credentials. How singled out do you feel when you're the only one asked for your ID?

And there it is. We get so focused on arguing over cases of misogynistic physical threat that we ignore the far more common occurence of unintentionally making women feel out of place.

Arguments like this are impractical because it boils down to anecdotes. There is a woman who plays in my local circuit and she does very well, most everyone is friendly to her and she knows the game much better than a majority of players. Given that this is all I've seen of the greater problem then from my perspective there is zero problem, clearly there aren't more women because they don't want to play as opposed to feeling uninvited. I'm not trying to disparage what happens to people but to sit there and think that a whinge story, accurate or not, is going to change minds is folly.

- Since being engaged I don't get the sexual harassment I used to get. I used to be told that I was nothing but a hole, that my opinion didn't matter and I needed to "get in the kitchen". I used to no be able to tell someone 'no' without them going on about how "oh you gamer girls are all alike, you don't want to talk to anyone you're just here to be told you look good. Well I'm not going to do that, you're average at best" and other hurt nonsense. Since I got a ring on my finger, guys don't do that kind of stuff. Why? Because they RESPECT MY FIANCE MORE THAN THEY RESPECT ME. My no doesn't mean anything, but the idea that they could be encroaching on another man's "territory" does, so they back off.

- The most obvious way I've been treated like **** happens daily. It comes from players holding up ships and saying, "oh yeah? Then what's this?" It comes from my fellow TO getting asked if she "even plays x-wing". It comes from people looking to my fiancé or another man for confirmation of what I say because they don't trust that I know the rules. Judgments are passed about me because of what's between my legs that would never be considered if I had a beard. Like a spectator to a tournament yelling at me, calling me "hysterical" (which, if you look up the roots of the word is gendered and, for the situation, completely inappropriate).

I find the above to be very shocking and sad. More importantly however, it puts the complaints about 'white male bashing' in perspective. While I understand that sweeping generalizations about white men can be unfair, the offense some take at even very reasonably phrased testimonies of sexism and other discrimination is way out of proportion with what the actual victims go through.

For what it's worth, the awful things that have happened to me have happened by men of all nationalities - not just white men.

But it is interesting that most men in gaming like to pretend because it doesn't happen to them, it doesn't happen. It's much easier to cry foul than to take an introspective look at the community you are a part of and realize that, holy crap, my friends can be complete jerks to women.

But then again, not everyone would find the things I described up there as being a jerk. So you know... Can't fix a problem people think isn't a problem.

Also, not all men necessarily pretend it doesn't happen, it's just never happened to them or in their environment, so they may believe you, but don't know how to deal with the issue, so they ignore it using the justification that "if it doesn't happen in my area, I can't do anything about it, so I'll just ignore the problem"

Of course I could be reading that wrong because I rarely interact with the group in my area. I mostly just play with my friends who play the game.

Thank you, HurricaneMaanen. While the very unpleasant people such as those described in the OP's link exist, we miss the shrapnel in the fireworks. I sure did until you posted this.

But I do think they are prone to not letting me in their world if I don't know who illustrated that issue of spiderman. Or who originally piloted that ship in the expanded universe. That's the type of sexism I've experienced.

With all the hyperbole being thrown around (it opened with White Male Terrorists) the important details like this get overlooked.

My first thought on reading this part was "but if they do that to everyone then surely they're not being sexist?"

And then I thought about it more.

We don't do that to everyone. Or rather, not in the same way.

It's not hostility, it's disbelief.

There's no sexist intent behind it, but for so many the initial response to discovering a woman in a male dominated interest area is skepticism. The automatic response is to get them to prove it, to ask them for their nerd credentials. How singled out do you feel when you're the only one asked for your ID?

And there it is. We get so focused on arguing over cases of misogynistic physical threat that we ignore the far more common occurence of unintentionally making women feel out of place.

THANK YOU! This is really well worded, and so clearly the point.

You do not have to think something is sexist, or HAVE A SEXIST INTENT, for it to be sexist. That's what people miss.

They miss that they would NEVER ask the TO of their store championship if they even played x-wing if their face was covered with a beard instead of makeup. It's a complete and utter disbelief that as a woman I can be into the same things you are, so I have to prove it.

Why? Why should I prove my geek cred? To impress you?

I am singled out for it all the time. From when I'm trying to judge a match and someone comes up to me and asks me where the bathroom is (I'm busy, walk around the store). To when someone calls me over and then looks to the table next to them to "verify" my ruling. (I keep an iPad with all the rules references on it, so I can quick search and prove to a table my ruling - because they don't always trust me.)

It is what it is, but if more people made a concentrated effort to back off, it would be a much more welcoming place.

"And there it is. We get so focused on arguing over cases of misogynistic physical threat that we ignore the far more common occurence of unintentionally making women feel out of place."

This is the thing about society that really needs fixing.

Time will fix it. More ladies play games, both video and tabletop, the more everyone will get used to it, the less people will comment and be surprised.

/thread again?

"And there it is. We get so focused on arguing over cases of misogynistic physical threat that we ignore the far more common occurence of unintentionally making women feel out of place."

This is the thing about society that really needs fixing.

Time will fix it. More ladies play games, both video and tabletop, the more everyone will get used to it, the less people will comment and be surprised.

/thread again?

Yea, we've found the problem, now it's up to us to stop it and think before we blurt out something stupid.

Can we go back to "Crush your enemies" now?

I would love to be sexually harassed. But me too fuzzy.

For what it's worth, the awful things that have happened to me have happened by men of all nationalities - not just white men.

But it is interesting that most men in gaming like to pretend because it doesn't happen to them, it doesn't happen. It's much easier to cry foul than to take an introspective look at the community you are a part of and realize that, holy crap, my friends can be complete jerks to women.

But then again, not everyone would find the things I described up there as being a jerk. So you know... Can't fix a problem people think isn't a problem.

Also, not all men necessarily pretend it doesn't happen, it's just never happened to them or in their environment, so they may believe you, but don't know how to deal with the issue, so they ignore it using the justification that "if it doesn't happen in my area, I can't do anything about it, so I'll just ignore the problem"

Of course I could be reading that wrong because I rarely interact with the group in my area. I mostly just play with my friends who play the game.

Easy way to address the issues: If you see something, say something. It doesn't happen in my local group, because we have a handful of women. But it happens at Store Champs and what not where non-local players come. So just keep an eye on it, and if you see it happening call the person out on it. Straight up. "That's a super jerk thing to say man, why would you say that?"

It's easy to ignore a problem. I wish I could ignore it too. But I can't.

I would love to be sexually harassed. But me too fuzzy.

This is such crap. Don't say things like this. You wouldn't love it. You wouldn't love someone making you feel unsafe because of the parts you were born with. This is part of the issue. People that think harassment is flattering.

It's not. It's scary.

"And there it is. We get so focused on arguing over cases of misogynistic physical threat that we ignore the far more common occurence of unintentionally making women feel out of place."

This is the thing about society that really needs fixing.

Time will fix it. More ladies play games, both video and tabletop, the more everyone will get used to it, the less people will comment and be surprised.

/thread again?

Yea, we've found the problem, now it's up to us to stop it and think before we blurt out something stupid.

Can we go back to "Crush your enemies" now?

I could go on to point out that the relationship between Vasquez and Drake is in fact one of the best examples of a movie relationship on screen.

It's completely ambiguous if they are romantic or not (only hinted at in novelization) yet clearly they are close and have a rock solid friendship.

There's no sexist intent behind it, but for so many the initial response to discovering a woman in a male dominated interest area is skepticism.

About this. This is sexism (not your comment, Blue Five, I appreciate your post): the idea that seeing a woman in a space normally reserved for men demands skepticism.

This is how sexism (and racism, ageism, any other type of discrimination) works. Nobody - or I'd guess, a very few bodies - sits down and thinks to themselves, "Hm, I'm going to be sexist right now." It's an unconscious thing, drummed into all of us by years of gender coding, social interactions and a whole mix of other factors, and it is extremely easy to deny that a) it exists and b) it affects you because, well, it wasn't your intent. And look, this isn't to say that everybody is an abuser or that everybody is a creep or even that everybody is sexist. But sexist behavior? It exists, it's pervasive in the communities around our hobbies, and even if we don't agree with the mentality that creates it or the message it sends, a lot of us tolerate it a lot more than we probably should, and don't call it out when we see it. Because when something like this happens, and people who see it either say nothing or actively try to minimize it, we send a very clear message to the person who instigated whatever harm took place: what you did is fine.

I would love to be sexually harassed. But me too fuzzy.

F-

Come back when you can type in shyriwook, then maybe people will take you seriously. Also upgrade your humor routines.

Making a joke about not caring who your enemy is as long as you can crush them into submission, is much more appropriate then making a joke about a minority group that has a serious issue.

Fly Casual, and crush your enemies.

Sorry but what is thee point of this topic?? Why don't women play games?

It's not really all that complex is it?

You can't seriously expect both genders to enjoy the same things in equal amounts.

Guys like blown stuff up gals don't in general.

That is bull. PEOPLE like different things. No one is expecting equal amounts, but, given that how popular Star Wars is among women, you do have to question why gaming in general is 99% male.

Why are ballet classes 99% female? could it be it just doesn't appeal to most guys?

Why is makeup 99% used by women?

Why are yoga classes 99% women?

Why is quilting 99% done by women?

Is it perhaps because we just like different stuff?

Are you going onto forums about make-up and berating people there because not enough men use it? i highly doubt it.

People like different stuff it's fine for men to have something that's just for men just like it's fine for women to have stuff that's just for them we don't have to share everything.

​And if your the new person entering an environment it's up to you to make the effort to fit in not the group your joining and that applies no matter the gender or the activity.

But haven't you heard you can't be racist or sexist against straight white men.

Yes, us poor, downtrodden white men who have CONTROLLED THE WORLD FOR A THOUSAND YEARS.

Here is another part of the problem, this notion of collective responsibility for the acts of dead people on the grounds of something as superficial as race.

Was anyone in this thread a leading figure in an 19th century European Empire? No. Anyone one of the monarchs leading the Crusades? No. Anyone owned a slave plantation? No.

You can't blame someone for the acts of long dead people over which they have no power but who they share a nationality and skin colour with. It's mad. You can't treat groups of people like a big hive entity.

Judge people for their own deeds, not the deeds of long dead people they have no power over. If someone's grandmother was an axe murderer, you don't lock them in prison.

My point wasn't that men have centuries of discrimination coming to them. It's that until we've had centuries of systemized, institutionalized racism and sexism heaped on us, what little racism and sexism we do experience doesn't balance the scales in the slightest.

Basically, "What about the mens?" isn't going to fly as an argument.

There's no sexist intent behind it, but for so many the initial response to discovering a woman in a male dominated interest area is skepticism.

About this. This is sexism (not your comment, Blue Five, I appreciate your post): the idea that seeing a woman in a space normally reserved for men demands skepticism.

This is how sexism (and racism, ageism, any other type of discrimination) works. Nobody - or I'd guess, a very few bodies - sits down and thinks to themselves, "Hm, I'm going to be sexist right now." It's an unconscious thing, drummed into all of us by years of gender coding, social interactions and a whole mix of other factors, and it is extremely easy to deny that a) it exists and b) it affects you because, well, it wasn't your intent. And look, this isn't to say that everybody is an abuser or that everybody is a creep or even that everybody is sexist. But sexist behavior? It exists, it's pervasive in the communities around our hobbies, and even if we don't agree with the mentality that creates it or the message it sends, a lot of us tolerate it a lot more than we probably should, and don't call it out when we see it. Because when something like this happens, and people who see it either say nothing or actively try to minimize it, we send a very clear message to the person who instigated whatever harm took place: what you did is fine.

QFT. 100% this. A friend of my fiancé once said to me, "Oh. -YOU'RE- going to TO now? What ship is this, then?" and he shoved a Kwing in my face. This is a man who's been to my home, who I've cooked for, who is in my -bridal party at my upcoming wedding-. He was not intending to be a sexist jerk. But he was. So I called him out on it, and called him one.

Until people call you out, you don't notice that you've got these subconscious prejudices that are permeating your actions.

Shouldn't that be "Fly casual, crush your enemies, and leave the toilet seat down"?

"And there it is. We get so focused on arguing over cases of misogynistic physical threat that we ignore the far more common occurence of unintentionally making women feel out of place."

This is the thing about society that really needs fixing.

Time will fix it. More ladies play games, both video and tabletop, the more everyone will get used to it, the less people will comment and be surprised.

/thread again?

Yea, we've found the problem, now it's up to us to stop it and think before we blurt out something stupid.

Can we go back to "Crush your enemies" now?

I could go on to point out that the relationship between Vasquez and Drake is in fact one of the best examples of a movie relationship on screen.

It's completely ambiguous if they are romantic or not (only hinted at in novelization) yet clearly they are close and have a rock solid friendship.

Jaina Solo, and Zekk in the EU.