Very late to this thread but hey it's a VERY long read.

Just want to add my thoughts, feelings and somewhat tangential anecdote.

Anyway, firstly I have been a gamer since as long as I can remember and have always been in the presence of female gamers and have not directly come across anything like this in a gaming related capacity, just being with these same ladies in other situations has made it clear quite a lot of them are very rightfully concerned about this type of behaviour* in general.

Now this is utterly gut wrenching for some one from a rather sheltered rural, locals all know each other and are generally friendly, upbringing. I feel this even more so after settling down and having a daughter, NO ONE should have to be so fearful about going around being who they are with seemingly very little official backup if bad things happen.

That last bit hits me personally in a kinda related way, I have come across it a few times, firstly in the form of institutionalised bullying and abuse whilst at private school. Now any normal kid would think hey I'll tell my boarding house master they are the adult in charge and will help, NOPE they helped the abusers cover it all up. Not fun.

Fast forward a lot of years and recently i have sadly found myself in a seemingly unending streak of unemployment, and stuck in welfare. I hate this and do all I can to do whatever workshop, seek any help I can to get round whatever it is that is getting me stuck where I am.

I put in the work, volunteer, go on unpaid placements, probably spend too much suiting myself to help 'fit in' better with prospective employees.
Anyway my point (sorry its a little meandering) Is that after all this I still get told the same thing, almost word for word 'we don't believe, your having an actual problem getting work as you aren't uncouth, ill kempt and track suit wearing or of low intelligence, and everyone knows that's the only thing people on welfare are like'

This is from people whose job it is to HELP misfortunate people, actively justifying the issue as being solely the fault of the 'victim' via a laughable inaccurate stereotype, with contrary evidence conversing directly to them!

So yes I can sadly see exactly why women have issues with the police when it comes to the reporting of harassment, assault and abuse .
Truly saddening.

Finally HurricaneMaanen thank you for carrying on with this thread in a level headed and engaging way, it is very good to hear about these things especially if ones direct experience has shielded them form it in person, this behaviour should be exposed and hopefully stopped wherever it crops up.

*for reference being taught how to protect your drink bottle from being drugged and at one point having to help extricate a female friend from a club after some sicko spiked their drink.

OP was making a statement disguised as a question. That never ends well.

Quite the opposite, in fact. I never anticipated 38 pages of what this has become, but when I read the post I encountered from Johnny D'Amato (from OneShot / Campaign podcasts), I had a reaction. Now, my reaction was tempered by reading through the play Steel Magnolias 20 times in the last 3 weeks and being dog tired when I actually posted... never a good combination.

I had a realization that I really didn't know of a female presence in X-Wing. I was sure there were some, but I had not heard any on any podcasts and I had not seen any at any of the events. I was curious why that was and I was hoping that we weren't doing things that were making ladies feel uncomfortable in our presence. I knew it could be "style of game" as my wife prefers co-op games like Zombicide, but will play X-Wing with me when she feels like she isn't too mentally tired. I really expected to hear more of "naw... we've got a lot of diversity at our stores" and less of what actually happened. I have great expectations of us as a whole and I feel that we hold ourselves to a higher standard.

Maybe I just hold us to a higher standard, but I don't think I'm alone or I wouldn't respect Hothie so much! I wish I could go back and change how I broached the subject, but there have been some things come out of this that I intend to carry forward in a different manner. Maybe we won't change people, but maybe we, as an X-Wing community, can be the community that is inviting to everyone interested in gaming. Maybe I'm an idealist... so I'll go out and tilt a few windmills and sing songs that will be remembered long after I am gone.

@ HurricaneMaanen - Sorry I'm not quoting, but I'm typing on a phone and trying to format on this contraption does my box in.

If you feel that you posting here has made a difference, fair enough. But my gut tells me you haven't. It may or may not get some people to think about their behaviour, and if it does then well done. It won't stop offenders in any way, shape or form.

And that is were you are deeply wrong. Social change happens when the environment changes. As stated before, those offenders assume they are the good guys. Any reduction of support reduce the ability to sustain the image of being the good guy while still continue with 'bad' behavior.

And support in this context can be quite passive, because different perspectives will view actions different. If you are not ok with the behavior of someone you have to make this clear, silence will nearly always interpreted as support. Support of small things will be considered as support more extrem actions and so on. That this interpretation of a abuser from your amusing, but a little sexist jokes is clearly a misinterpretation is irrelevant for the self-image of said abuser. Change the environment, change the self-image of people and they will change happily on their own to achieve again the self-image they want from themselves.

We all like to be the good guys. And speaking of this, maybe that is the base for some people overshooting their target values so hard, right into insanity. ;-)

I have shoulder length hair (naturally curly, jealous yet?).

Nope, I try my best to get the curls out of my mane. I would be jealous if you had no curls at all. And even more if your beared growth would be close to zero, nothing more annoying than shaving in the moring and doing it again in the evening for some event, because it all did grow back again over the day

Sorry I didn't meant to get so angry. I just realized that was upset that I had people from the beginning of the thread discounting my experiencing, demanding proof, and I finally gave as much proof as I could bear to over an Internet forum and it went completely ignored because it made people uncomfortable. I'm sorry. You kind of got bit by the knee jerk reaction that caused me to realize that what I say truly doesn't matter and that's such a tough realization when you're trying to help someone.

Sorry again. Went on a tangent.

It is sad that the female representation in gaming is alright as best. I have hope it'll get better though.

No harm, no foul. We're actually on the same page I think.

As was stated earlier(possibly by you?), it costs me nothing to empathize when someone's been wronged, regardless of the truth of the matter (again, not talking about you specifically; talking in more broad terms). At the end of the day, if someone lies to me and I give them my sympathy, I'm still no less off than when I started the day.

Yep, I am the one that's being saying that this whole thread. I think it's a great message!

Finally HurricaneMaanen thank you for carrying on with this thread in a level headed and engaging way, it is very good to hear about these things especially if ones direct experience has shielded them form it in person, this behaviour should be exposed and hopefully stopped wherever it crops up.

Thank you for your story. It's sad to hear from other sides of the coin the way the system works against us. A system ran by humans will have human mistakes - including judgements and prejudices. Maybe one day we will overcome them.

And thanks for the compliment. I have tried to keep a level head. It hasn't been easy.

Indeed, skepticism has its place but it should never be your first reaction when someone says they need help.

You completely missed the point.

The point is that it is NEVER ok to discriminate.

Your point is that water is wet. True, but irrelevant right now.

You completely missed the point.

The point is that it is NEVER ok to discriminate.

Your point is that water is wet. True, but irrelevant right now.

It is very relevant in that the SJW arguments can't hold water.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me

- Martin Niemöller

The above is a poem that I find has helped shaped my own personal consciousness, in I hope, a positive way.
Now it may sound a tad melodramatic, but while people are busy griping and being petty, there are others out there suffering in silence, and if we don't help them, then how can we expect anyone to be there for us when we need it.

If we can't find it within ourselves to care and help then who can?

TLDR:

Be excellent to each other.

Well, I think we all learned something important here today.....

When it comes to post like these, they're like this bunny!

and the thread keeps on going... and going... and going.. and going...

and going... and going... and going... and going...

You do realize that you aren't required to be here right?

Considering that every time I return to the X-wing forums this is thread 2 or 3 (with 1 being the only sticky thread) You might as well say "You can leave the X-wing Forums"

Considering that every time I return to the X-wing forums this is thread 2 or 3 (with 1 being the only sticky thread) You might as well say "You can leave the X-wing Forums"

Not to sound hostile, but you are only interested in thread 2 or 3 then you are to casual for the x-wing forums anyway. Nerd credentials revoked. ;-)

Seriously, you just stop clicking the topics you don't care for. Or those which you have no time for. It not like this issue is discussed over 70 threads or something, with click bait titles. We are in the X-Wing forums not on kotaku. ;-)

Indeed, skepticism has its place but it should never be your first reaction when someone says they need help.

Scepticism should be your first response to everything.

The person asking for help could be leading you into an ambush, and you know what happens when raiders get their hands on you, or worse the institute.

I work every year at a summer program where we're all charged with stepping up to make the community the best we can. When someone says something demeaning people don't just let it go, but ask what that person meant by it, whether they thought about how others might react. Most of the time, the kids haven't even thought through why they're saying what they're saying. Few people really intend to hurt others.

As an instructor you can see how the kid who might be struggling with his sexuality, someone who's poor, someone who's from some different background takes in those messages about who matters and who doesn't, watch them conclude they won't be treated with respect or kindness and withdraw. Usualy the dominant group doesn't even notice who might be paying attention and learning from their behavior, and they don't usually don't have any bad intent either. I've seen countless times where these things were pointed out and the kids reached out and made a huge difference.

This **** doesn't have to be negative. There doesn't have to be shame, self-hatred, and misery. Conversations like this can be a chance to make things better for ourselves and others, if only as individuals we can realize it's not just about us. Why don't we instead take our first steps into a larger world?

Considering that every time I return to the X-wing forums this is thread 2 or 3 (with 1 being the only sticky thread) You might as well say "You can leave the X-wing Forums"

Not to sound hostile, but you are only interested in thread 2 or 3 then you are to casual for the x-wing forums anyway. Nerd credentials revoked. ;-)

Seriously, you just stop clicking the topics you don't care for. Or those which you have no time for. It not like this issue is discussed over 70 threads or something, with click bait titles. We are in the X-Wing forums not on kotaku. ;-)

Fly Casual

Considering the majority of thread supporter are avatar-less profiles who fail at proofreading and demand that we be serious with our Star Wars is proof that SJWs are infiltrating the forums ranks posing as HARDCORE X-WING PLAYAS!

This thread is heavily moderated, was at 40 pages 12 hours ago and is now at 39 pages.

http://i.imgur.com/X1amFDz.jpg

I remember a time when we didn't just assume because it was on the internetet was true.

Listen and believe.

OP was making a statement disguised as a question. That never ends well.

Quite the opposite, in fact. I never anticipated 38 pages of what this has become, but when I read the post I encountered from Johnny D'Amato (from OneShot / Campaign podcasts), I had a reaction. Now, my reaction was tempered by reading through the play Steel Magnolias 20 times in the last 3 weeks and being dog tired when I actually posted... never a good combination.

I had a realization that I really didn't know of a female presence in X-Wing. I was sure there were some, but I had not heard any on any podcasts and I had not seen any at any of the events. I was curious why that was and I was hoping that we weren't doing things that were making ladies feel uncomfortable in our presence. I knew it could be "style of game" as my wife prefers co-op games like Zombicide, but will play X-Wing with me when she feels like she isn't too mentally tired. I really expected to hear more of "naw... we've got a lot of diversity at our stores" and less of what actually happened. I have great expectations of us as a whole and I feel that we hold ourselves to a higher standard.

Maybe I just hold us to a higher standard, but I don't think I'm alone or I wouldn't respect Hothie so much! I wish I could go back and change how I broached the subject, but there have been some things come out of this that I intend to carry forward in a different manner. Maybe we won't change people, but maybe we, as an X-Wing community, can be the community that is inviting to everyone interested in gaming. Maybe I'm an idealist... so I'll go out and tilt a few windmills and sing songs that will be remembered long after I am gone.

This is very important. I tried (and hope i was successful) in my posts from the start of the thread. Asking a question such as this IS very important, however so is HOW you ask that question. While you asked it in the wrong way (my opinion) i do honestly believe that your heart and intentions were in the right place. Mistakes, even large ones (not that this was a large one), are ok, aslong as something is learned from them. Not learning from mistakes is the real tragedy.

This is a touchy subject, and there are extremists on BOTH sides that are wrong. Blaming and shaming victims is never ok, but at the same so is declaring someone guilty without due diligence. It is important to remember that a falsely accused person (male or female) BECOMES the victim. However, we all must be careful to not discount someone's story for fear it might be a false accusation. This is something that the legal systems of the world, and human society in general has been struggling with for several generations within our global "Village". There are no easy answers, there are many hard questions, and realities. In navigating this dangerous road there have been many stumbles, back tracking, and false paths, but it is important to not discount the victories (for humanity not individuals) we have also found on the path we are on as a species.

Humans are social creatures, we bring out the best and worst in each other when we function as a community. We just need to make sure we hold ourselves to a higher standard, when one of us stumbles, don't trample them or ignore their plight, offer them a hand up, and maybe a shoulder to help bear the load.

Fly Casual, and Be Excellent to each Other (even if you disagree vehemently)

Thought I would way in with my opinions (and it is only my opinion.)

The article is neither right nor wrong. There is indeed a problem within society in regards to sexism, r**e and other terrible things that happen.

It is important that everyone feels safe in their gaming communities, no one should be subjected to sexual assault of any kind or inappropriate language. I know that some people may 'joke' and such and that is fine unless it offends someone in which case a polite "That was a little rude." can sometimes defuse a situation. I've been in a scenario where someone said something to someone else in jest. I decided to step in and defuse things and thankfully smooth them over, the former persons intent was not malicious and he apologized and never did anything like it again.

The problem is as Wisconsen says, evidence is key, just because someone says they were sexually assaulted, does not mean they were, they may have their own agenda to accuse the person and that is a big may, an accusation is a very serious affair for both parties, mainly because one of them is the victim, and usually at face value it is the one with the problem, but we don't know agendas. I can appreciate this may at times cause problems, but the old 'innocent until proven guilty' guideline should apply, with a forceful reminder that any inappropriate behavior will not be tolerated if discovered, nor will any false accusations.

I say this as someone who's FLGS is fantastic and knowing the owner, I know he would not allow any behavior that occurs to continue. I know I certainly would speak up if I saw anything inappropriate going on. I've not even heard of these events going on (although probability says it must happen at some point somewhere in the world).

We must help each other and attempt to build a better community, while showing people who perverse our hobby with inappropriate behavior that it will not be tolerated.

My sympathies to anyone who has been a victim of incidents like these, humans can be terrible people and incredibly manipulative of others and relationship in an attempt to hide their guilt. Other members of the community, game stores, and friends should aid local law enforcement if necessary.

I think I am just rambling at this point, so I will just end that everyone should respect one another and treat each other as equals.

Seriously guys 39 pages now

http://i.imgur.com/X1amFDz.jpg

I remember a time when we didn't just assume because it was on the internetet was true.

Listen and believe.

You just don't understand. The individuals don't matter, its about the bigger picture. If I'm nice to you and you're nice to me then John C Henry will be nice to Barack Obama because of our stellar example. Besides this is just like you trolls always bringing this misinformation into it after we've decided to jerk ourselves off again.

Nope, no way. I said I was church-goer mad. That means angry beyond all possible reason or understanding. Like... I'm so mad even Dinosaurs are starting to look preeeetty darn fake right about now.

Well, if they already took the ball away then I guess it's fine. Someone posted some garbage in my other clearly marked serious x-wing discussion thread and so I thought I'd come kick stuff around. RAH! JESUS!

And for the record, yeah I do get upset by this kind of thing, cuz I really do go out of my way to be nice to people and have respect for myself and others. But I also don't buy a lot of what I call "modern thinking". I'm 30 years old and I've realized life is hard enough without all this societal crap bogging everyone down. I mean, isn't that why we're here, on a gaming forum? To get away from all the crazy sign wavers and politics?

Well if we're trying to get away, why bring all the bad things along rather than work to make this a better place where everyone can have fun?

Exactly so! People trying to get away from harassment should be able to dive into gaming. I want people to leave harassment at home and just _game_.

It's First Contact Day and it feels like this is the world we're living in:

http://i.imgur.com/X1amFDz.jpg

I remember a time when we didn't just assume because it was on the internetet was true.

Listen and believe.

You just don't understand. The individuals don't matter, its about the bigger picture. If I'm nice to you and you're nice to me then John C Henry will be nice to Barack Obama because of our stellar example. Besides this is just like you trolls always bringing this misinformation into it after we've decided to jerk ourselves off again.

That is a picture on imgur not even a link to an actual source but an easily editable picture from a site mostly devoted to memes. Hardly something that counters personal testimony of hardship and you still continue to ignore those who voiced their experiences in this thread or worse actively insult them and belittle what they have went through. Making masturbation jokes about victims of sexual harassment, you are truly disgusting.

That is a picture on imgur not even a link to an actual source but an easily editable picture from a site mostly devoted to memes. Hardly something that counters personal testimony of hardship and you still continue to ignore those who voiced their experiences in this thread or worse actively insult them and belittle what they have went through. Making masturbation jokes about victims of sexual harassment, you are truly disgusting.

Yeah, the joke kinda fell flat and was in poor taste. But, people use imgur all the time to host images due to it being free. What I just wanna ask though, is why can we trust one blog over another? What makes one valid and the other, not? Without concrete proof on either, you can't exnay one then call the other gospel. That said, and as I stated before, awareness is good but as this thread has shown and the reason I wish it didn't keep popping up, it's now just turning into character assassinations and name calling. Which, does that really help anyone?

http://i.imgur.com/X1amFDz.jpg

I remember a time when we didn't just assume because it was on the internetet was true.

Listen and believe.

You just don't understand. The individuals don't matter, its about the bigger picture. If I'm nice to you and you're nice to me then John C Henry will be nice to Barack Obama because of our stellar example. Besides this is just like you trolls always bringing this misinformation into it after we've decided to jerk ourselves off again.

That is a picture on imgur not even a link to an actual source but an easily editable picture from a site mostly devoted to memes. Hardly something that counters personal testimony of hardship and you still continue to ignore those who voiced their experiences in this thread or worse actively insult them and belittle what they have went through. Making masturbation jokes about victims of sexual harassment, you are truly disgusting.

Just want to point out that unlike the other one there is stuff in this blog post you can look up to see if it is lying or not. You can look up the thread he references and check out the company to see if it does have more women over male employees, then can easily blast this as fake if those are proven false. can also email this guy to see if he did in fact make this post.