just lock that self-guilt farmhouse already and be through with that.

it's THAT simple.

If someone has some weird need to feel offended, they will find their excuse.

My issue, currently with this thread is all the passive aggressive **** currently going on.

Oh, look at me, i'm so bloody perfect. you all need to stop harrassing women.

Nevermind that most of us, possibly even all of us know this and actually don't.

This is precisely why I'm all like "yeah, we are all flawed, no-ones perfect, just try to be excellent to one another".

"oohh weeeh but i see your true colours" Yeah. I'm bloody honest.

Hence my repeat comments of "respect everyone" (serious paraphrasing like).

It's not a hard concept.

bump

doesn't calling it in attention more detrimental than it actually is? It seems along the lines of if you are talking to someone and preface any statement with "not to be racist.." even if it has no context in the situation or subject matter being talked about.

Maybe it's because i've been going to tournaments and game shops for the better part of 15 years never have i once thought about treating someone different in that regard. Male/female/age/race non of those mattered when i played a game i didn't even think about it (well maybe watched my words/cursing around children).

It seems over the years that people think we need reminders in order to act like regular human beings? But why is that? Maybe it is because of the area that i live/play that people are more open minded and it doesn't seem to be an issue. But that line of thinking also seems wrong.

The problem is trying to handle this on a macro level. If you see, or are subjected to, sexual harassment, you have a problem with an individual. If your community (TO, club management, shop owner) doesn't address this issue somehow, then you have a problem with your community. By immediately jumping to "there is a problem with gaming" you're basically including thousands of individuals and hundreds of groups who may be perfectly civil.

Also, a lack of women in the X-Wing community isn't in and of itself evidence of discrimination. Trying to figure out the cause of this is admirable. Reaching an immediate, unfounded conclusion and then flinging blame and/or demanding a specific course of action, is not.

Secondly this issue is widespread enough that it can /only/ be handled at the macro level. I'm not saying nor have I ever said that the gender imbalance in the game is exclusively due to harassment but losing even one potential player because of that is too many. Several people in this thread have discussed their personal experiences with it and those of their loved ones so it does occur and denying that only makes it that much easier for those who are guilty to get away with it.

I have seen some of what was described in the opening post first hand and though those involved were called out and expelled from the store the genuine shock that they expressed showed that this was something they were used to getting away with at their old hangout.

I don't know if this more extreme harassment is present in the X Wing community like it is in Warhammer but personal testimonial tells us that lesser more casual harassment is present so just watch out for your fellow gamers and always do your best to make them feel safe and welcomed even if it means you might have to get confrontational with someone who does not offer that same courtesy.

It's like with a fire, no one is accusing you of setting it but if you think you smell smoke or hear someone yelling for help even if you aren't sure could you really live with yourself if you walked away and just out of sight someone was burning?

Then perhaps instead of blogging about the harassment or posting on internet forums the victims should report it to people that can do something about it. I don't know, perhaps the police?

The problem with this thread is that despite all of the self congratulation about doing something that some posters seem content to wallow in, it has achieved nothing. The offenders will continue to do what they're doing and all of the fancy thinking in these forums won't stop that.

And before anyone goes down the road of saying that because I don't buy the "we changed the world with our strongly written forum posts" bull that I think that sexual assault is ok, don't.

Because I don't.

Cheers

Baaa

^^ Because common sense.

I brought up this tread to my wife last night in conversation and inquired why she does not like playing X-Wing with me while she's more than happy to play other 2 player games and she was pretty blunt that she just did not like the direct confrontation. We explored the 2 player games we enjoy together and it was really eye opening to see that most of those games (while 2 player) do not have a 1 vs 1 type of set up and we can each do our own thing to win without directly confronting the opposing player.

I then looked at the games that my daughters enjoy and sure enough, most of those avoid direct confrontation as well. So my own limited household of evidence does support the notion raised that female gamers may just not enjoy 1v1 games as much as they enjoy games with a more social, non-confrontational aspect.

I also thought back to every convention I've attended and several things came to mind:

Last year at GenCon, my wife drove in to Indy for Sunday with the rest of the family (my son and I were volunteering). She was walking around with our middle daughter and they came across one of the vendors selling corsets. The 15 year old wanted to try one on as she's into less mainstream type of stuff and convinced my wife to try one on as well. My wife had a good laugh at another attendee whose "eyes almost popped out of his head" when the corset got cinched up (not sure if it was from the look of surprise on her face or due to what corsets tend to do to certain parts of the female anatomy). While she was not offended by the reaction, there could be others who would be offended. No one really knows what was running thru that guys head but him.

Which leads right into my next example. I've complimented people before on their costumes but I've never really thought about how the compliment could be taken. Is this person thinking I'm enjoying the ample amount of bosom on display or do they realize I'm actually very impressed with the craftsmanship (what with there being so many women in my family who sew).

In the end, I'm pretty secure in my opinion that X-Wing probably does not have an abundance of female players due to the mechanics rather than any specific discrimination against female gamers. I'm also glad that I do have a FLGS that is open and welcoming of all gamers and I've been blessed enough to not have had to deal with idiot players who would scare off female players of any game.

While I've never witnessed hostility toward a female gamer, I'm not naïve enough to think it doesn't occur. After all there are ass-hats everywhere in this world. Law of averages would place a few of them as being gamers too.

Then perhaps instead of blogging about the harassment or posting on internet forums the victims should report it to people that can do something about it. I don't know, perhaps the police?

The problem with this thread is that despite all of the self congratulation about doing something that some posters seem content to wallow in, it has achieved nothing. The offenders will continue to do what they're doing and all of the fancy thinking in these forums won't stop that.

And before anyone goes down the road of saying that because I don't buy the "we changed the world with our strongly written forum posts" bull that I think that sexual assault is ok, don't.

Because I don't.

Cheers

Baaa

Hi Baaa,

I wasn't planning on jumping back in, but... I felt compelled with this to say this.

I have received 4 PMs from lurkers to this thread thanking me, saying I opened their eyes to some things they have done that they didn't realize how it effected people, and that they appreciated the insight. My own fiancé related to me a story last night about how he was a jerk to a girl in a pokemon hat (challenging her geek cred) and he didn't realize until he met me and listened to me talk how extremely crappy that was. So I mean, I don't think I can change the world, but I think if maybe I can open the eyes of one or two people I've made the world a better place, ya know?

As for the police thing I'll just say this...

I tried.

Some of our police have similar attitudes to posters in this thread.

So I resign myself to maybe trying to open the eyes of one or two people whenever it seems possible to.

That's all.

My story of playing with a girl gamer.

Long time ago, Mordheim.

we shook hands.

declared setup. I was all ranged, she was all melee.

She described the game as cat on cat. It's a good description. How it ended was lost to time, I think she won. I'll say she won.

We shook hands.

I thought this girl was awesome.

Didn't see her again. Hindsight, will blame other male gamers for not being like me.

Saying "This is a huge problem" and providing an anecdote seems to be the only evidence you need nowadays to make something a huge problem.

Saying "This is a huge problem" and providing an anecdote seems to be the only evidence you need nowadays to make something a huge problem.

Oh yeah you'll notice how evasive they become when you ask for evidence.

If stuff like this is a genuine problem there would be evidence I've asked for it but it was not forthcoming, when I've stated something I've been more than happy to back it up.

There isn't actually an issue people just want attention and know the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Saying "This is a huge problem" and providing an anecdote seems to be the only evidence you need nowadays to make something a huge problem.

Oh yeah you'll notice how evasive they become when you ask for evidence.

If stuff like this is a genuine problem there would be evidence I've asked for it but it was not forthcoming, when I've stated something I've been more than happy to back it up.

There isn't actually an issue people just want attention and know the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

What kind of evidence would you like me to provide you of my assault, Hobojesus? I'm genuinely curious how and WHY I'm expected to provide evidence of such an intimate, shameful, and painful part of my life to someone on the internet, when I was just providing my point of view in a thread on a forum that requested it.

Then perhaps instead of blogging about the harassment or posting on internet forums the victims should report it to people that can do something about it. I don't know, perhaps the police?

The problem with this thread is that despite all of the self congratulation about doing something that some posters seem content to wallow in, it has achieved nothing. The offenders will continue to do what they're doing and all of the fancy thinking in these forums won't stop that.

And before anyone goes down the road of saying that because I don't buy the "we changed the world with our strongly written forum posts" bull that I think that sexual assault is ok, don't.

Because I don't.

Cheers

Baaa

The idea here was to raise awareness of a possible issue in the community that isn't often acknowledged. I admit that I lost my temper when trolls started jumping in with such gems as "sexual harassment doesn't matter because **** in Africa" or "women always lie for attention" and when they tried to disrupt the discussion with an endless stream if off topic **** posts but I've tried my best to be civil with anyone who actually put time and thought into their arguments. The idea that talking about something doesn't help so we should all shut up is idiotic because no problem haz ever been solved without people discussing them.

Additionally, there is no "we" here. Why is it that its never okay to put people in groups and blame them for something unless they are white dudes? College professors will claim "white privilege" is the reason, but that's a term they made up 15 minutes ago.

I started playing this game a year ago. Never played another game in a store environment. I treat everyone I play against with respect. Their demographic make up is not my concern. This is not an intimidating segment of the population. If people want the game, they can find it. If they play me, they'll get treated properly. That's what *I* will do.

Saying "This is a huge problem" and providing an anecdote seems to be the only evidence you need nowadays to make something a huge problem.

Oh yeah you'll notice how evasive they become when you ask for evidence.

If stuff like this is a genuine problem there would be evidence I've asked for it but it was not forthcoming, when I've stated something I've been more than happy to back it up.

There isn't actually an issue people just want attention and know the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

What kind of evidence would you like me to provide you of my assault, Hobojesus? I'm genuinely curious how and WHY I'm expected to provide evidence of such an intimate, shameful, and painful part of my life to someone on the internet, when I was just providing my point of view in a thread on a forum that requested it.

Respectfully. We all get it. Sexual assault is bad.

Fairly sure none of us needed you to tell us this.

I hope none of us needed you to tell us this.

Harassment is also bad. In future I will make a point to be vigilant about calling it out. This, I will admit is a direct result of this thread.

I will admit, not being a social person who goes to game stores that much (Because I have a family , with kids, and therefore no time) I have yet to really see it. The closest I have is a really socially inept friend blurting "who is she" at my wife, and really I was more worried for his safety than my wifes.

I still however maintain as I always have the possibility for what can be perceived as accidental harassment.

I still agree that this can be any race, any gender.

I still think that any race, any gender can dress in a way that makes others uncomfortable.

I will continue to feel uncomfortable talking about sexual assault in a forum which has nothing to do with sexual assault. This extends to all hate crimes.

I'm here for the little tiny ships, but I have a voice, I have also a lifetimes experience. I will show off both.

Saying "This is a huge problem" and providing an anecdote seems to be the only evidence you need nowadays to make something a huge problem.

Oh yeah you'll notice how evasive they become when you ask for evidence.

If stuff like this is a genuine problem there would be evidence I've asked for it but it was not forthcoming, when I've stated something I've been more than happy to back it up.

There isn't actually an issue people just want attention and know the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

What kind of evidence would you like me to provide you of my assault, Hobojesus? I'm genuinely curious how and WHY I'm expected to provide evidence of such an intimate, shameful, and painful part of my life to someone on the internet, when I was just providing my point of view in a thread on a forum that requested it.

Respectfully. We all get it. Sexual assault is bad.

Fairly sure none of us needed you to tell us this.

I hope none of us needed you to tell us this.

Harassment is also bad. In future I will make a point to be vigilant about calling it out. This, I will admit is a direct result of this thread.

I will admit, not being a social person who goes to game stores that much (Because I have a family , with kids, and therefore no time) I have yet to really see it. The closest I have is a really socially inept friend blurting "who is she" at my wife, and really I was more worried for his safety than my wifes.

I still however maintain as I always have the possibility for what can be perceived as accidental harassment.

I still agree that this can be any race, any gender.

I still think that any race, any gender can dress in a way that makes others uncomfortable.

I will continue to feel uncomfortable talking about sexual assault in a forum which has nothing to do with sexual assault. This extends to all hate crimes.

I'm here for the little tiny ships, but I have a voice, I have also a lifetimes experience. I will show off both.

I think you do get that it is bad, Darius. I do not think "we all" do, though, considering some others have posted links to organizations that actively try to "legalize r*pe". I was asking a legitimate question - Hobojesus was asking for proof and evidence. I was asking him what kind he'd like.

I don't disagree with much you've said in this thread. I think it is a person's right to feel uncomfortable with a situation another puts them in, and I believe 100% that being nearly naked makes -a vast majority of people uncomfortable-.

However, from the first post this thread was about assault. If you're uncomfortable discussing it that is completely fine but that was the premise of the thread. So I mean, not sure what you expected?

Your voice is valid, respected, and appreciated.

Saying "This is a huge problem" and providing an anecdote seems to be the only evidence you need nowadays to make something a huge problem.

Oh yeah you'll notice how evasive they become when you ask for evidence.

If stuff like this is a genuine problem there would be evidence I've asked for it but it was not forthcoming, when I've stated something I've been more than happy to back it up.

There isn't actually an issue people just want attention and know the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

What kind of evidence would you like me to provide you of my assault, Hobojesus? I'm genuinely curious how and WHY I'm expected to provide evidence of such an intimate, shameful, and painful part of my life to someone on the internet, when I was just providing my point of view in a thread on a forum that requested it.

Personal testimony is not evidence human memory is incredibly fallible and changes over time that's why we don't convict people on eyewitness testimony alone we also need physical evidence to support it.

One instance of it happening is not statistically significant, if it's an issue there will be thousands of cases which will in turn would create police reports and court cases meaning on demand you should be able to provide statistics from a credible source.

So can you show this is actually an epidemic of abuse or is it just people following the narrative that all white men are evil, if you provide impartial evidence i will look it over and rethink my stance happily otherwise i maintain my current scepticism.

Also you misspelled my name.

@ HurricaneMaanen - Sorry I'm not quoting, but I'm typing on a phone and trying to format on this contraption does my box in.

If you feel that you posting here has made a difference, fair enough. But my gut tells me you haven't. It may or may not get some people to think about their behaviour, and if it does then well done. It won't stop offenders in any way, shape or form.

I don't know you, and I'm not casting aspersions, but I just can't reconcile giving up with any woman I know. The ones I know would have made the police listen. And I'll quantify that in case someone accuses me of saying that you're either a liar or weak. Because I'm not. I work in an industry that is 50/50 men and women. One where both are paid equally. I have worked with young women who regularly put men to shame when it comes to getting into a trench and grafting.

I also have 3 sisters, a daughter and a wife, and not one of them would take no from the authorities as an answer. So, I'm sorry, but not confronting the issues head on is alien, not only to me, but I'd confidently say the women I know and work with.

Cheers

Baaa

In regards to premise. My foci was really more so on what can constitute harassment, and where blurred lines can occur.

I've even been trying to avoid even using the term "blurred lines" due to the connotations that has, but there we go.

So, one thing you guys don't know. I have shoulder length hair (naturally curly, jealous yet?). I am not terribly tall, standing at five-eight.

I also have a tendency to wear flowy coats.

Consider me a walking vengeance for you regarding catcallers.

In regards to premise. My foci was really more so on what can constitute harassment, and where blurred lines can occur.

I've even been trying to avoid even using the term "blurred lines" due to the connotations that has, but there we go.

So, one thing you guys don't know. I have shoulder length hair (naturally curly, jealous yet?). I am not terribly tall, standing at five-eight.

I also have a tendency to wear flowy coats.

Consider me a walking vengeance for you regarding catcallers.

How did you get multiple foci? Do you have PtL?

Personal testimony is not evidence human memory is incredibly fallible and changes over time that's why we don't convict people on eyewitness testimony alone we also need physical evidence to support it.

One instance of it happening is not statistically significant, if it's an issue there will be thousands of cases which will in turn would create police reports and court cases meaning on demand you should be able to provide statistics from a credible source.

So can you show this is actually an epidemic of abuse or is it just people following the narrative that all white men are evil, if you provide impartial evidence i will look it over and rethink my stance happily otherwise i maintain my current scepticism.

Also you misspelled my name.

I'll dissect this a bit. Sorry I misspelled your name.

First, I do not have anything against white men. I'm white. My whole family is white. Nothing against white people. So I'm not following a narrative. In fact, I'm marrying a Hispanic man and my assault was committed by a Hispanic man. SO. With that said.

A shocking number of police have a similar outlook that many do in this thread and this world - that if she was dressed indecently, if she was drinking, if she invited him up to her room, she was, on some level, asking for it. So sometimes when you're hurt, confused, and downtrodden, and you go to the people who you think can help you and you get levied with questions and accusations that this was in some way your fault... it is almost impossible to, in your brain, convince yourself it wasn't your fault. I still have trouble with it sometimes. I STILL sometimes think that, even though I was drugged (got the test to prove it), I was in the wrong.... Because I met a guy gaming, and invited him to play super smash brothers on N64 in my dorm room.

I can't point you to a collection of police reports like mine, and I am so sorry for that. The fact of the matter is, that the vast majority of assaults are not reported because of fear. Fear of not being believed, fear of persecution, fear of backlash. In fact, the vast majority of victims don't report for fear of doing exactly what I'm doing it - explaining it to someone who does not believe it.

I could point you to studies about how prevalent assault is. I could point you to studies about how underreported it is. I could point you to studies that show WHY it is so incredibly underreported. But you could find them yourself with an easy google search.

An important thing to note - -you are not a court of law-. One of the things I've said so many times in this thread is it costs you nothing to believe a victim without having to see the same amount of physical evidence as a jury.

I got my kit done once I woke up. The pictures, swabs, collections... all done.

But I should -not- have to provide that to anyone to give my opinion on my opinion of assault and harassment in the gaming industry. I experienced it and gave examples of my experiences and said it would be a great thing to change.

Never said it was an epidemic. Just shared my experiences and participated in a conversation. To a lot more scrutiny than most other posters.

@ HurricaneMaanen - Sorry I'm not quoting, but I'm typing on a phone and trying to format on this contraption does my box in.

If you feel that you posting here has made a difference, fair enough. But my gut tells me you haven't. It may or may not get some people to think about their behaviour, and if it does then well done. It won't stop offenders in any way, shape or form.

I don't know you, and I'm not casting aspersions, but I just can't reconcile giving up with any woman I know. The ones I know would have made the police listen. And I'll quantify that in case someone accuses me of saying that you're either a liar or weak. Because I'm not. I work in an industry that is 50/50 men and women. One where both are paid equally. I have worked with young women who regularly put men to shame when it comes to getting into a trench and grafting.

I also have 3 sisters, a daughter and a wife, and not one of them would take no from the authorities as an answer. So, I'm sorry, but not confronting the issues head on is alien, not only to me, but I'd confidently say the women I know and work with.

Cheers

Baaa

No problem for not quoting, I understand formatting can be weird on mobile.

Maybe I didn't make a difference. That's okay. I was participating in a conversation and showing my side of the story. That's it. It's interesting to me that my side of things has gotten so much more scrutiny than all the others.

I'm sorry you don't understand the complex psychological things one goes through after an assault, but, when you've just been violated in such an extreme way and you're talking to someone who's supposed to protect and help you, and they're hurling things at you saying you were at fault.. .you start to believe it. It takes a lot of therapy to overcome.

In regards to premise. My foci was really more so on what can constitute harassment, and where blurred lines can occur.

I've even been trying to avoid even using the term "blurred lines" due to the connotations that has, but there we go.

So, one thing you guys don't know. I have shoulder length hair (naturally curly, jealous yet?). I am not terribly tall, standing at five-eight.

I also have a tendency to wear flowy coats.

Consider me a walking vengeance for you regarding catcallers.

How did you get multiple foci? Do you have PtL?

Moldy Crow title + Recon Spec.

Interesting. We talk about things that happen at tournaments all the time. Now it's about sexual harassment, and suddenly I read 'your memory may be faulty' for the first time. What makes this so different that now we would doubt a stranger's ability to remember?

Greetings

I'd like to thank HurricaneMaanen for her posts. I imagine it is pretty difficult to write about one's own experiences where some posters are dismissive.

I think to Baa's point, one could be lucky and/or have a good police response. This clearly does not happen in all cases and is evident by the continuing efforts of, for example, UK police forces to improve their approach.

Regards

Edward