Nope, no way. I said I was church-goer mad. That means angry beyond all possible reason or understanding. Like... I'm so mad even Dinosaurs are starting to look preeeetty darn fake right about now.

Well, if they already took the ball away then I guess it's fine. Someone posted some garbage in my other clearly marked serious x-wing discussion thread and so I thought I'd come kick stuff around. RAH! JESUS!

And for the record, yeah I do get upset by this kind of thing, cuz I really do go out of my way to be nice to people and have respect for myself and others. But I also don't buy a lot of what I call "modern thinking". I'm 30 years old and I've realized life is hard enough without all this societal crap bogging everyone down. I mean, isn't that why we're here, on a gaming forum? To get away from all the crazy sign wavers and politics?

Well if we're trying to get away, why bring all the bad things along rather than work to make this a better place where everyone can have fun?

My point exactly. Why this thread isn't in the OT forum is beyond me, though I'm sure that's been said before.

I mean, what? Do I think we ought to smack peoples bottoms and act like pigs? God no! Duh. I'm also not advocating a do-nothing policy either, but I mean come on...

... if anything even remotely inappropriate went on in a game store today it would be handled seriously.

The initial blog post and the anecdata I've come across though indicates that it isn't always taken seriously, and the amount of vitriol that suggestion raises seems to explain why some women perceive it as a community that's hostile to them. The blogger certainly is a bit hyperbolic, but if a fraction of that happened to any of us (and admit it, we lots of us get angry about dice or people just cheating in games, I certainly do), of course we'd be angry, hyperbolic, and would see others rightly or wrongly as a threat. So why can't we be compassionate adults and try to help? Lots of us probably haven't seen it and may have great gaming groups full of terrific people. If so, then we should feel lucky, but also take note of how things can go wrong and, by imagining how people from other backgrounds might perceive things, make doubly sure those things don't happen on our watch. It just takes a little empathy and practice.

Oh!!!! I get it now...people are mad.

And...there is some type of political fog as well.

Stir in a degree of 'internet anonymity' so the tempers can really flare.

Linking of websites...denouncing of websites...a little bit of false guilt...some Stockholm syndrome... The usual name calling and ' get outta my forum if you think like that'-itude.

Yep. This is why I quit Facebook.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure everyone here can be a decent person.

Right?

Tl;Dr:

"Are we part of the problem" thread is created.

People get so upset about being called part of the problem that they link to a pro-ra*e hate group.

One woman dares poke up her head to explain that she has seen the terrible behavior listed in the OOP.

Woman is harassed until she leaves.

So yes. We are part of the problem.

Interesting.

Sounds like a big problem.

What do people mean by 'we' in this context? Am I included in the 'we'?

I'm trying to understand if I should personally have a stake in the issue. If I'm not being auto included into the 'we' thing then it all makes more sense.

Whatever reality there might be to situations like this, that tumblr post is one of the most histrionic appeals to emotion I have ever seen

"We" are not a problem, at least not any "we" that I am a part of - god **** Canadians are savages, this **** goes on a lot with those maple-suckers. It's practically all I hear about Canada any more!

is there a tldr on this whole thing? or a link or something?

its not that i`m not interested in whatever the topic is...i just cant figure out WHAT the topic is. it`s very noisy in here.

Op posted a link, (some) people read it and pointed out the the article was full off trigger words and generalizations but wasn't very good. Generally polite discussion ensued. Trolls riled them up and 10 page argument of consent & when is it OK to stare ensued. Argument died out/ trolling stopped and they patted themselves on the back. Someone mentioned gamer gate for reasons unknown and it started back up.

Sexual harassment in the gaming community is a huge deal and the fact that some assholes get so up in arms just from people trying to talk about it only proves how big an issue it is.

Ah the insufficiently supportive of the revolution charge. Good one.

For the record I've tried to get girls into it but it hasn't interested them. I've done my part, have you OP?

Quick question though: why aren't more guys into scrap booking? Are you into scrap booking? If not, why do you perpetuate the sexist stereotypes of arts and crafts?

As for harsh reactions...What do you expect? People also don't like the implicit "you are guilty by default" stuff. You come making that charge, then wonder why you get a negative reaction? Especially with the condescension doing from sine of the supporting comments? Really?

I hate these threads because they seem to exist solely so people can do some moral preening about how they care so much more than you, and by the way you should stop what you are doing and reflect on your life and the bad things you or someone like you has done, entirely at the discretion of some internet stranger. That some other guy will show up in a month saying the same thing is irrelevant, we should confine wag our beards as though these are deep ponderings.

...How can actively blocking and attempting to shut down discussion of sexual harassment be seen as anything other then condoning it? You are not required to read or reply to this thread so the only reason anyone would feel the need to barge in and try to shut down the conversation is if they are afraid that this will lead to them getting caught.

My opinion is correct. If you don't share my opinion and try to disagree with me then you are the problem. You might think that its fine to sit in an echo chamber and fellate yourself on how enlightened you are but as long as you're discussing this on an open forum you'll have people who aren't going to agree or sit and take your opinion in stride. A couple pages back you were saying how sure you were that you had accomplished something great here and how nitpicky trolls couldn't ruin it be derailing with gamergate. Hurricane Maanen was the second person to mention gamergate it hadn't once come up prior to that in any significant form and best of all it was after you all jerked each other off.

There is a marked difference between a disagreement in opinion and intentional trolling to derail a topic so it can be discussed. One engages the discussion and provides an alternate viewpoint, i can respect that even if I disagree with it, the other tries to be as disruptive and annoying as possible in order to prevent a reasoned discussion from taking place.

Oh!!!! I get it now...people are mad.

And...there is some type of political fog as well.

Stir in a degree of 'internet anonymity' so the tempers can really flare.

Linking of websites...denouncing of websites...a little bit of false guilt...some Stockholm syndrome... The usual name calling and ' get outta my forum if you think like that'-itude.

Yep. This is why I quit Facebook.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure everyone here can be a decent person.

Right?

Given that my stance is that everyone is flawed and ****** up.....

No. :-)

Addendum: everyone definitely includes me. Human nature is flawed.

Oh!!!! I get it now...people are mad.

And...there is some type of political fog as well.

Stir in a degree of 'internet anonymity' so the tempers can really flare.

Linking of websites...denouncing of websites...a little bit of false guilt...some Stockholm syndrome... The usual name calling and ' get outta my forum if you think like that'-itude.

Yep. This is why I quit Facebook.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure everyone here can be a decent person.

Right?

Given that my stance is that everyone is flawed and ****** up.....

No. :-)

Addendum: everyone definitely includes me. Human nature is flawed.

It needs to be cleansed in fire and steel!

In red dice and guidance chips!

DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!!!

Greetings

The fact that someone raises something in an emotional way does not mean there is no issue to be addressed. Labelling may be 'political' but (mis)treatment of others is not.

Playing X-Wing is great and what these lists are here to discuss - but playing the game does not happen in a vacuum - how we treat others while playing and discussing it matters.

Accordingly it seems to me to be a valid topic for discussion and one that should attract sensible discussion. Obviously if someone feels that the topic is not one for them there is no reason for them to feel that they have to participate in the thread.

Regards

Edward

Whatever reality there might be to situations like this, that tumblr post is one of the most histrionic appeals to emotion I have ever seen

"We" are not a problem, at least not any "we" that I am a part of - god **** Canadians are savages, this **** goes on a lot with those maple-suckers. It's practically all I hear about Canada any more!

No doubt. All Canadians are bad. Thats why Trump is building a wall! MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!

Viva La Canada! Let them build a Wall, for we will starve them of Tim Hortons and our perfect donuts. Our superior maple products and 95% of "American" actors!

(May not be Canadian born, or a Canadian citizen, but my kids are and i've lived here ~ 8 years now so...)

Whatever reality there might be to situations like this, that tumblr post is one of the most histrionic appeals to emotion I have ever seen

"We" are not a problem, at least not any "we" that I am a part of - god **** Canadians are savages, this **** goes on a lot with those maple-suckers. It's practically all I hear about Canada any more!

No doubt. All Canadians are bad. Thats why Trump is building a wall! MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!

Canada doesn't know how to build a wall, heck man they can't even lock their doors don't be cruel.

Viva La Canada! Let them build a Wall, for we will starve them of Tim Hortons and our perfect donuts. Our superior maple products and 95% of "American" actors!

(May not be Canadian born, or a Canadian citizen, but my kids are and i've lived here ~ 8 years now so...)

Shush, don't mention our sleeper agents.

Not even William Shatner?

Reading through the 30+ pages of comments I find a lot of the attitudes of most posters expressing a lot of self hate. This is problem is a sign most modern white males disempowerment and confusion over what it means to be a man. As an older gamer I can honestly say that MEN are NOT the problem in model war gaming. Girls and women are simply interested in other things. At my local gaming centre you can see it clearly with the male's at one end and petering out towards the females at the other end the only real mixing going on around the card and co-op gaming areas.

The role playing area is divided in two with one group mostly girls with the od boyfriend or husband and the other group all boys with the od girlfriend/wife. and the 2 games being played are vastly different.

Is Simple :-

GIRL's prefer Co-Op games or competitive games where the violence is nonspecific (like magic)

Boys prefer Model war games or competitive games

there are exceptions I know several woman young and old who will kick your ass at war-hammer.

To the few woman who might still follow this topic:

I have read the topic and will be aware in the future.

I will engage in inapropriate situations and not look away.

Its my believe that the majority of the community got the same idea.

I don´t believe that the majority of the community shares the ideas of the 5 or so "Freedom-for-the-white-Male-Fighters" that guard this Topic,drown it in endless relativations and desperatly trying to be seen as the true victims.

I think all arguments are made.

We have got the picture.

And we have got a picture of some of our fellow communitymembers by their posts.

Reading through the 30+ pages of comments I find a lot of the attitudes of most posters expressing a lot of self hate. This is problem is a sign most modern white males disempowerment and confusion over what it means to be a man. As an older gamer I can honestly say that MEN are NOT the problem in model war gaming. Girls and women are simply interested in other things. At my local gaming centre you can see it clearly with the male's at one end and petering out towards the females at the other end the only real mixing going on around the card and co-op gaming areas.

The role playing area is divided in two with one group mostly girls with the od boyfriend or husband and the other group all boys with the od girlfriend/wife. and the 2 games being played are vastly different.

Is Simple :-

GIRL's prefer Co-Op games or competitive games where the violence is nonspecific (like magic)

Boys prefer Model war games or competitive games

there are exceptions I know several woman young and old who will kick your ass at war-hammer.

What a serious poster?!?!?!

Get your pitchforks and drive him out of town everyone!!

I'm more impressed that he could post his point without exuding smug superiority... Unlike the next post..

I suspect your sig is the best thing to come out of this thread, other than perhaps an understanding that people here are way too fascinated in dudes wearing bodypaint.

The conversation never ends well.

Oh, oh gads not this again. I'm sorry, but I also have a very odd feeling that this lady somehow has gotten the perfect storm for harassment, that aside, this is the wrong forum for this, and has been at least 2 topics like this in this last month.

Agreed. I've seen so many of these threads that I would almost say this should be locked before things get out of hand.

Sexual harassment in the gaming community is a huge deal and the fact that some assholes get so up in arms just from people trying to talk about it only proves how big an issue it is. Trying to censor the topic just because your afraid some pathetic sexist manchild will throw a tantrum is exactly the kind of thing that lets thing like this persist in a community.

I haven't really seen anything like this happening in X Wing... and yet I attended four store championships this last month and there was not a single female participant so something does seem amiss.

Really? Could it be that maybe women just aren't playing in those areas? Maybe they aren't into the game? Stop trying to find something in nothing. Just because you went to four store championships doesn't mean that everyone is a sexist. My Finance plays many board games with me, but when I ask her to play X-Wing she says it's too complicated and she's not interested... so should I force her to because we need women to play to seem more "inviting?" This seems like a silly discussion and aggravated article based on a feeling and no facts other than you don't see women playing it.

Believe it or not, board gaming, miniatures etc. are not the social norm still (I know I am really shaking it up now) many men are still "ashamed" or "embarrassed" to even walk into a game store, let alone play something regularly, so it should come as no surprise that it would be hard for women to do. Heck our game store tried a women's game night and no one showed.

So no it is not strange, I am sure there might be more as time goes on, but to simply yell sexism because there are no women is asinine.

Wanna know what is really crazy? This thread is still going.

Wanna know what is really crazy? This thread is still going.

I actually agree for once, most of the core people who were involved here reached a consensus and left but ever time I think it's over someone pops in and either makes a dumb joke or says something so inflammatory it demands response. I just wanted this to go out on a high note for a change but apparently "a number of women get harassed by gamers and we should all be on the watch to stop it" is somehow to controversial stopping point.

The problem is trying to handle this on a macro level. If you see, or are subjected to, sexual harassment, you have a problem with an individual. If your community (TO, club management, shop owner) doesn't address this issue somehow, then you have a problem with your community. By immediately jumping to "there is a problem with gaming" you're basically including thousands of individuals and hundreds of groups who may be perfectly civil.

Also, a lack of women in the X-Wing community isn't in and of itself evidence of discrimination. Trying to figure out the cause of this is admirable. Reaching an immediate, unfounded conclusion and then flinging blame and/or demanding a specific course of action, is not.

An observation: the most upvoted posts on this topic are those agreeing with the OP that there *is* a problem with this sort of thing, or at least that we need to have a mature conversation about it.

As someone who used to frequent a lot of videogame forums, I'm used to seeing threads like this being dismissed and downplayed ('Oh, so telling a woman she is beautiful is harassment now is it?! etc.), with any dissenting voices being ridiculed and downvoted. So the very fact we're able to have this conversation at all, let alone willing to have it is somewhat reassuring.

I mean, I probably shouldn't be celebrating my community being able to condemn harassment without making excuses, but thats the world we live in.

Well, having read the rest of the thread I'm a lot less convinced we're any better at all.

Anyone complaining about Political Correctness gone mad I refer to this bit of standup by Stewart Lee:

Other than that, my favorite thing about this thread is reading all the poor men upset that a **** victim wasn't polite enough to avoid denting their eggshell fragile egos.

'People get offended about over nothing these days'

'hey i've been harrased by men at a convention'

'NOT ALL MEN HARRASS WOMEN! STOP ACCUSING ME OF BEING A TERRORIST'

My issue, currently with this thread is all the passive aggressive **** currently going on.

Oh, look at me, i'm so bloody perfect. you all need to stop harrassing women.

Nevermind that most of us, possibly even all of us know this and actually don't.

This is precisely why I'm all like "yeah, we are all flawed, no-ones perfect, just try to be excellent to one another".

"oohh weeeh but i see your true colours" Yeah. I'm bloody honest.

Hence my repeat comments of "respect everyone" (serious paraphrasing like).

It's not a hard concept.

Also, a lack of women in the X-Wing community isn't in and of itself evidence of discrimination. Trying to figure out the cause of this is admirable. Reaching an immediate, unfounded conclusion and then flinging blame and/or demanding a specific course of action, is not.

And like most crimes, I will 'fling blame' at the person committing it. As for demanding a course of action...well, what would you demand? Sexual harassment may be complex from a sociological view, it doesn't take a genius to think of what a victim would want. Help, understanding and justice.