Where's that Nathan Fillion meme? I'm out.

This. This right here is where the thread will derail if we let it. People who issue death threats and **** threats are wrong. Period, full stop. You no longer have any moral standing to argue about "ethics in video game journalism"

It is wrong to make threats, but its also wrong to write cyber-slander about a group of people "gamers." What was it... It was a awhile when I last saw it, we are all sexist, fat, neck-beard, psychos who live in our basements? If that is the case they're already wrong, I am not fat, I am not sexist (I do love cheese cake in my games though as long as that character is at heart an amazing character and not crazy,) I don't live in a basement. I could be a psycho... but I find it odd people would still go out of their way to make me angry if this is the case...

Oh and then around that time all these CSI and Criminal Minds show episodes came out depicting gamers as being so disconnected from reality they were abducting people and putting them in scratch built mazes forcing non-gamers to kill each other. AND or going into fire fights with FBI main characters, relishing the challenge of being able to actually be in a stand up fight with real trained combatants.

I sure do love it when gamers are depicted this way... and monkeys will fly out my butt!

(and as an aside, as a former freelance journalist, that entire thing is absurd. They aren't journalists, they are an independent advertising agency, same with most movie reviews. You want an honest review, go to the NYT).

So would you say Gamers are dead?

Gamer Princess Luna doesn't think so!

Too. Many. Pages.

Well. We had a good conversation and accomplished a lot, I'm not going to let nitpicking trolls ruin what we did here. They lost, and the fact that they are bringing up gamergate and posting blatant nonsense proves it. Sexual harassment exists in the gaming community and we opened a lot of eyes to that so next time people like those attempting to derail this thread attempt to victimize someone hopefully there will be more people looking to prevent it.

Just going to go in and add my two cents before bowing out.

I was and am, and always will be on the side of Gamergate. I remember why it started, and I know **** well that there were villains on our side too. But there were a lot of bad guys on the other side as well.

In the end it exposed a lot of bad s*it about a lot of people in charge of games journalism that had every single conceivable reason to be outed.

Anita Sarkeesan can eat a fist, by the way. What a pain.

This. This right here is where the thread will derail if we let it. People who issue death threats and **** threats are wrong. Period, full stop. You no longer have any moral standing to argue about "ethics in video game journalism" (and as an aside, as a former freelance journalist, that entire thing is absurd. They aren't journalists, they are an independent advertising agency, same with most movie reviews. You want an honest review, go to the NYT).

There's no longer any reasonable debate that can be had about "bad people on both sides."

Very visible threats were made against women.

Death was threatened.

**** was threatened.

Personal information was published.

All about "the integrity of video game journalism."

Heck, you JUST threatened physical violence against a woman because you disagree with her.

If you don't understand how deeply that is part of the problem, well then I'm gonna sign out of this thread.

So those select few who did those things instantly disqualify any actual merit that a movement has? Should we have not listened to MLK because the Black Panthers existed? Both sides performed these acts. Maybe Captain was wrong to say that about Anita, she's only a sock puppet after all so I'll say the same about Brian McIntosh. That guy deserves to eat a fist.

Those select few also happened to be sending the death threats to themselves or making it up.

Disagreeing with them counts as harassment. So by the definitions they have made up, they get harassed constantly and by everyone.

I had hope that we were on an upward trend, but, I guess the internet cannot leave well enough alone. I am still encouraged by the thinking people that showed up today and dared to become involved, even after I had a faulty start with how I presented the first post. I have certainly learned some good things and I hope others have taken time to read some thought provoking posts today too.

Well, I think we all learned something important here today.....

Well, I think we all learned something important here today.....

Women are the enemy?

That spam is bad

but you know...

Well, I think we all learned something important here today.....

When it comes to post like these, they're like this bunny!

and the thread keeps on going... and going... and going.. and going...

There is an old quote from a source few may have had a chance to read, Pogo:

"I have seen the enemy... and the enemy is me!"

Good words on a day like today. Be excellent to each other... another now aging quote that has renewed relevance.

I don't think any of us originally intended to be the "bad guy person", but I think most of us have certainly done something we later regretted.

Maybe in time we all grow a little and learn that this world really is about people and how we treat each other.

I have a lot of respect for those that have expressed these thoughts with better words than I have today...

I had hope that we were on an upward trend, but, I guess the internet cannot leave well enough alone. I am still encouraged by the thinking people that showed up today and dared to become involved, even after I had a faulty start with how I presented the first post. I have certainly learned some good things and I hope others have taken time to read some thought provoking posts today too.

The thread definitely had a good streak of constructiveness, it wasn't a wasted exercise. Unless it has a major second wind I think it's run its course now though.

There is an old quote from a source few may have had a chance to read, Pogo:

"I have seen the enemy... and the enemy is me!"

Kinda like when Luke chopped off Vader's head in the cave in Dagobah and it was his own head but it really should have been Leia's head because... you know...

Just going to go in and add my two cents before bowing out.

I was and am, and always will be on the side of Gamergate. I remember why it started, and I know **** well that there were villains on our side too. But there were a lot of bad guys on the other side as well.

In the end it exposed a lot of bad s*it about a lot of people in charge of games journalism that had every single conceivable reason to be outed.

Anita Sarkeesan can eat a fist, by the way. What a pain.

This. This right here is where the thread will derail if we let it. People who issue death threats and **** threats are wrong. Period, full stop. You no longer have any moral standing to argue about "ethics in video game journalism" (and as an aside, as a former freelance journalist, that entire thing is absurd. They aren't journalists, they are an independent advertising agency, same with most movie reviews. You want an honest review, go to the NYT).

There's no longer any reasonable debate that can be had about "bad people on both sides."

Very visible threats were made against women.

Death was threatened.

**** was threatened.

Personal information was published.

All about "the integrity of video game journalism."

Heck, you JUST threatened physical violence against a woman because you disagree with her.

If you don't understand how deeply that is part of the problem, well then I'm gonna sign out of this thread.

Uh, kthxbai I guess? If you really think I threatened anything then like.

**** bro. The thinnest of skin. I guess I should side with the easily offended or something.

Heck, you JUST threatened physical violence against a woman because you disagree with her.

Don't you think there is a distinct difference between saying someone can eat a fist and saying that you're going to be the one to feed it to them?

And frankly, wouldn't it be sexist if he would suggest a man could eat a fist, but somehow by virtue of gender a female would not be offered that meal?

In the words of the late George Carlin, "Let's not have a double-standard. One standard will do just fine."

As far as so called "extreme-feminists", I don't really engage with anyone who exhibits the generally attributed behaviours but are there really people that think that others need permission to talk to them? That's goofy.

I'll talk to anyone, men, women, children, old people, plants, animals, hell....I'll even make faces at babies and toddlers. What kind of person (other than those who haven't had their morning coffee) gets offended by someone talking to them?

+1.

While it saddens me to say it, a whole lot of the posts in this thread have soured my opinion towards this community considerably. There were quite a few good posts earlier on where people were engaging with experiences that weren't their own, particularly the experiences of women and how they are often marginalised in gaming communities (tabletop and otherwise), and there was almost a congress of ideas happening... but there are also a whole lot of really terrible, toxic posts and it's really sorry to see. It's almost a microcosm of what is wrong with the wider gaming community.

Don't you think there is a distinct difference between saying someone can eat a fist and saying that you're going to be the one to feed it to them?

And frankly, wouldn't it be sexist if he would suggest a man could eat a fist, but somehow by virtue of gender a female would not be offered that meal?

In the words of the late George Carlin, "Let's not have a double-standard. One standard will do just fine."

As far as so called "extreme-feminists", I don't really engage with anyone who exhibits the generally attributed behaviours but are there really people that think that others need permission to talk to them? That's goofy.

I'll talk to anyone, men, women, children, old people, plants, animals, hell....I'll even make faces at babies and toddlers. What kind of person (other than those who haven't had their morning coffee) gets offended by someone talking to them?

This has got to be, far and away, the worst post in this thread. Threats of violence, even "joking" ones about how someone can "go eat a fist" are messed up and wrong, no matter who the recipient is. This applies double if the recipient is a woman, not because of some imagined double standard, but because of the historical context of female oppression, where women have suffered, and continue to suffer, the worst effects of domestic, institutional and sexual violence in our societies. Don't be this guy.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

Just going to go in and add my two cents before bowing out.

I was and am, and always will be on the side of Gamergate. I remember why it started, and I know **** well that there were villains on our side too. But there were a lot of bad guys on the other side as well.

In the end it exposed a lot of bad s*it about a lot of people in charge of games journalism that had every single conceivable reason to be outed.

Anita Sarkeesan can eat a fist, by the way. What a pain.

This. This right here is where the thread will derail if we let it. People who issue death threats and **** threats are wrong. Period, full stop. You no longer have any moral standing to argue about "ethics in video game journalism" (and as an aside, as a former freelance journalist, that entire thing is absurd. They aren't journalists, they are an independent advertising agency, same with most movie reviews. You want an honest review, go to the NYT).

There's no longer any reasonable debate that can be had about "bad people on both sides."

Very visible threats were made against women.

Death was threatened.

**** was threatened.

Personal information was published.

All about "the integrity of video game journalism."

Heck, you JUST threatened physical violence against a woman because you disagree with her.

If you don't understand how deeply that is part of the problem, well then I'm gonna sign out of this thread.

I was there when LizzyF was sexually harassed and doxed out of supporting Gamergate by the "antis". I remember the anti-GGer who posted a picture of himself ejaculating on a picture of her. When doxed, she had to leave twitter out of fear of real life harassment. I remember the nutjob calling for women and men who supported gamergate to be stuffed into ovens Auchzwitz style. I saw some of the worst real misogyny, hatred and bile come out of people who said they were against harassment.

I won't tar everyone on the "anti" side with that brush, but if I did, I would have a lot of ammunition.

As far as so called "extreme-feminists", I don't really engage with anyone who exhibits the generally attributed behaviours but are there really people that think that others need permission to talk to them? That's goofy.

I'll talk to anyone, men, women, children, old people, plants, animals, hell....I'll even make faces at babies and toddlers. What kind of person (other than those who haven't had their morning coffee) gets offended by someone talking to them?

Starts at 0:59

Because if you don't say anything back to the person talking to you, your at risk at having your head cut off...

Ps after seeing the rest of the video I would like to say I don't support all of it, if anything at all. Just was pointing out that we need permission to say hello too these women.

I was there when LizzyF was sexually harassed and doxed out of supporting Gamergate by the "antis". I remember the anti-GGer who posted a picture of himself ejaculating on a picture of her. When doxed, she had to leave twitter out of fear of real life harassment. I remember the nutjob calling for women and men who supported gamergate to be stuffed into ovens Auchzwitz style. I saw some of the worst real misogyny, hatred and bile come out of people who said they were against harassment.

I won't tar everyone on the "anti" side with that brush, but if I did, I would have a lot of ammunition.

The question is, can you prove those people were not professional agitators paid by people backing game journalists to give themselves ammunition to attack gamers?

I haven't read the thread (and judging by the last few posts, I'll stop about halfway through when I do), but I just wanted to add my reaction:

I’m glad to say I have not experienced anything this extreme in my time with the hobby, but being a straight white male, I’m also not a likely target. While it’s one thing to not participate in any inappropriate jokes, it’s another to stand up to them and worse. I’ve never seen anything like this happen, and I want to keep it that way. When gamers and other nerdy folk get together and geek out over every fandom under the sun, it’s some of the most fun you can have. Your favorite games and characters can be different, but the love for competition and fantasy is universal. And that universe includes, women, PoC, sexual minorities, literally everyone. So keep it nerdy, keep it fun, and fly casual.

While it saddens me to say it, a whole lot of the posts in this thread have soured my opinion towards this community considerably. There were quite a few good posts earlier on where people were engaging with experiences that weren't their own, particularly the experiences of women and how they are often marginalised in gaming communities (tabletop and otherwise), and there was almost a congress of ideas happening... but there are also a whole lot of really terrible, toxic posts and it's really sorry to see. It's almost a microcosm of what is wrong with the wider gaming community.

Don't you think there is a distinct difference between saying someone can eat a fist and saying that you're going to be the one to feed it to them?

And frankly, wouldn't it be sexist if he would suggest a man could eat a fist, but somehow by virtue of gender a female would not be offered that meal?

In the words of the late George Carlin, "Let's not have a double-standard. One standard will do just fine."

As far as so called "extreme-feminists", I don't really engage with anyone who exhibits the generally attributed behaviours but are there really people that think that others need permission to talk to them? That's goofy.

I'll talk to anyone, men, women, children, old people, plants, animals, hell....I'll even make faces at babies and toddlers. What kind of person (other than those who haven't had their morning coffee) gets offended by someone talking to them?

This has got to be, far and away, the worst post in this thread. Threats of violence, even "joking" ones about how someone can "go eat a fist" are messed up and wrong, no matter who the recipient is. This applies double if the recipient is a woman, not because of some imagined double standard, but because of the historical context of female oppression, where women have suffered, and continue to suffer, the worst effects of domestic, institutional and sexual violence in our societies. Don't be this guy.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

#1, I LIKE being "This" guy, and a helluva lot of other people like me as well. If you don't, sorry not sorry.

#2 Violence against anyone sucks. It is NOT worse if someone is a woman. That's just nonsense. The past is prologue. If you want an equal society in which justice is blind start acting that way. No one should be hitting anyone. It's clear the guy who said she should eat a fist didn't mean he was threatening anything. Perhaps you would be happier if he said she should have to watch back to back highlights of Jar Jar Binks for 24 hours. (I'd rather be hit in the face)

#3 There is a line between actually doing something and being a keyboard activist. If you genuinely feel like there should be more girls in gaming then start helping girls to see the joys in the hobby.

I came into this conversation at the 11th hour but only because the article so cheesed me off with it's hyperbole and anecdotal, but unsubstantiated claims of sexual assault and misconduct so over the top so as to be incredulous. As I said, there are a helluva lot of good people (and a bunch of white knight types) in the gaming community.

I don't believe for a second that these things would happen and no one would make a big deal of it. Just look at how many hackles are being raised here.

As far as so called "extreme-feminists", I don't really engage with anyone who exhibits the generally attributed behaviours but are there really people that think that others need permission to talk to them? That's goofy.

I'll talk to anyone, men, women, children, old people, plants, animals, hell....I'll even make faces at babies and toddlers. What kind of person (other than those who haven't had their morning coffee) gets offended by someone talking to them?

Starts at 0:59

Because if you don't say anything back to the person talking to you, your at risk at having your head cut off...

Ps after seeing the rest of the video I would like to say I don't support all of it, if anything at all. Just was pointing out that we need permission to say hello too these women.

Thanks for that. While I can see where it might be uncomfortable for a woman to have to deal with this crap (street catcalling) and I certainly don't engage in it, I don't think there is a basis for 'permission' either way.

I live in a very big city. Beggars constantly hound me for money. Do I like it? No. Do I engage them? No. I do what everyone else does. I put in my headphones and walk on by.

As far as threats of physical violence, again, it sucks but the answer is not creating some silly social construct that says you need some form of approval before speaking to a woman lest she be concerned for her safety. To my mind that's some patriarchal silliness.

Anyway, everyone is starting to think I am a a-hole when I am actually a really nice guy so I, too, will check out....

Like all things, there are two sides to every conflict, and this topic is a perfect example. Are there issues with sexism and the like? Of course there are. But when you make comments with phrases like "white male terrorism" and write a long post about your anecdotal experiences that reads like a political attack ad you are not furthering a conversation, you are just doing the same thing you are complaining about in reverse, and that's just going to make people mad and your whole point is lost in a sea of angry arguments.

Gamergate is the same way: it started from a legitimate issue in video game journalism (which was already an embarrassing mess before this particular topic even came to light), for which the game journalism industry deserved severe criticism, but then it got hijacked by people with a hateful ulterior motive and they started focusing on the wrong thing and the original message got lost in a huge mess. Then some of the most obnoxious people from the so-called "feminist" movement (who have managed to butcher the term so badly that the majority of women do not associate themselves with the word "feminist") got involved and it just got worse.

Humans suck. We can't get along, we can't resolve our differences properly, and even when we are genuinely victimized we still manage to make ourselves look foolish. Individual behavior is exactly that: individual, and should be dealt with on an individual basis. If you see someone being a scumbag by all means call them out on it, but stop with the group labeling. Anyone, including straight white males, will probably get pissed off when you make insulting generalizations about them and then tell them they aren't allowed to be mad about it because they aren't a marginalized group.

Is this seriously still going on?

I'm really afraid to read through this thread but the blog points to a huge problem. I've known women who've stopped going to game things because people treated them differently. It's not just about overt bad behavior too, but making an unwelcoming environment. It definitely gives me pause when I go to events and look around at who's not there. And were I a woman I'd probably be given pause by the hyper-sexualized depictions of women that are all around these stores too. It's not meant to be demeaning, but it's kind of an indication of how you might be regarded.

That said, seeing the growing inclusiveness of Star Wars, as well as how FFG has been making more cool characters in Imperial Assault, broadening the groups represented in Android Netrunner, which had a starter set where I couldn't find a single black person on a card, we have a chance to make things better. But we've got to take an active role in shaping a better community. Time to grow up.

This is great evidence right here that Canada has some of the most amazing women ever. Her name is Lauren Southern and in this video she confronts radical feminist. Take note that male feminist attack her camera man, and because she objected to non-factual points they made, they tried to ruin her life, even making false claims that she was slandering real **** victims.

Its because of these woman, and their strong arm "White Knights" I have trouble believing anything I hear anymore about all these victimization we hear from people we don't even know. To some of these woman, just opposing them, their non-factual points, counts as ****...? That crazy and can become very very dangerous.

That said, seeing the growing inclusiveness of Star Wars, as well as how FFG has been making more cool characters in Imperial Assault, broadening the groups represented in Android Netrunner, which had a starter set where I couldn't find a single black person on a card, we have a chance to make things better. But we've got to take an active role in shaping a better community. Time to grow up.

Are you being serious? I don't think just because one game set piece doesn't have a colored person in it doesn't mean the world is a bad place and we need to "Grow Up."