"We need to stop sexually objectifying women"

Yes, we do.

But that loops back to my point of a good start being not making a big deal when you see them at gaming/hobby stores.

Calling out the obvious sexism. (The K-wing example from 10 pages ago).

Just being decent. No-one needs to go out of their way.

I don't do that

But when someone does something that makes another uncomfortable (not just women) I discourage that behavior

That all I do, it just so happens that I see it more often against women

You might not, but people do.

That's as sexist as making the obvious catcalls, as that is essentially in a roundabout way telling the lady she isn't supposed to be there. Hey, you are a woman in a mans room. Why are you here?

That's a real sexist issue. One I am quite proud of literally never doing.

This is true on that same note her choice of clothing shouldn't factor in to your opinion either.

A recent episode of This American Life provides some good insight to several of the issues that we've been talking about. It's about an hour long, but I think it's worth a listen: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/581/anatomy-of-doubt

"The goal is gender equality, not taking one gender's side."

"Automatically believing a victim is unbelievably sexist."

I'm going to try to tackle both of these things, which appear to be pretty common in this thread. First of all, yes, perfect equality is the goal. However, if you fail to recognize just how far ahead men are than women in this particular arena (and MANY others), then I just really don't think there can be any meeting of the minds on this topic. Women are blamed for their clothing choices, their decision to drink, not doing everything in groups, sending 'mixed signals', having too many partners, not remembering every single detail of an evening that may have involved alcohol, drugs or just sheer exhaustion, the list goes on and on. Our society is inherently inequal, and serious work needs to be done to find an equilibrium. Yes, women shouldn't ogle men in the same way that men shouldn't ogle women. However, mansplaining that into an argument threatens to derail the whole thing. Not talking about it doesn't mean it isn't an issue, it means that trying to find an equivalence between the vastly different experiences of the average man and the average woman is not only an exercise in futility, but it minimizes the very real inequalities that face women every single day.

One of the big turning points for me was when I was thinking about this sort of topic and thought to myself that while women shouldn't expect to be attacked they should carry mace or travel in groups to be on the safe side...and then realized how ****ed up it is that I felt perfectly safe wandering over to a gas station at 2:00 am, completely unarmed and carrying money.

"We need to stop sexually objectifying women"

Yes, we do.

But that loops back to my point of a good start being not making a big deal when you see them at gaming/hobby stores.

Calling out the obvious sexism. (The K-wing example from 10 pages ago).

Just being decent. No-one needs to go out of their way.

I don't do that

But when someone does something that makes another uncomfortable (not just women) I discourage that behavior

That all I do, it just so happens that I see it more often against women

You might not, but people do.

That's as sexist as making the obvious catcalls, as that is essentially in a roundabout way telling the lady she isn't supposed to be there. Hey, you are a woman in a mans room. Why are you here?

That's a real sexist issue. One I am quite proud of literally never doing.

This is true on that same note Their choice of clothing shouldn't factor in to your opinion either.

Corrected for you. Whether it should or not is irrelevant. Whether it does subconsciously or actively. Yeah. Sorry. You can pretend it doesn't if you like, you might even believe it. It's there somewhere.

A recent episode of This American Life provides some good insight to several of the issues that we've been talking about. It's about an hour long, but I think it's worth a listen: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/581/anatomy-of-doubt

This episode has been in my queue since it came out. I've got to make time to listen to it.

The hypocrisy of using the word "mansplaining" when discussing sexism never ceases to tickle me.

Seriously. Here's where we pretend that the problems with gaming are race and gender related and not just based on the fact that gaming tends to attract socially awkward types.

Being shy around women and feeling nervous talking to them is social awkwardness. Groping them and making sexually suggestive comments towards them isn't.

Also, I don't want to go too far with this (for example, I think Darius and I agree on like 95% of this whole thing - it's that 5% that's turning into a bear of an argument/discussion).

I really don't understand SJW as an insult. To me it's kind of like using socialist as an insult. It just doesn't work. That brings me back to my earlier point. You don't have a right to say what other people find offensive. If someone is offended, they aren't "imagining things," they aren't "too sensitive," they are offended. Sure, the intent may not have been to offend, but the end result was offense. Why is it so hard to apologize? Why do people have to double down?

"The goal is gender equality, not taking one gender's side."

"Automatically believing a victim is unbelievably sexist."

I'm going to try to tackle both of these things, which appear to be pretty common in this thread. First of all, yes, perfect equality is the goal. However, if you fail to recognize just how far ahead men are than women in this particular arena (and MANY others), then I just really don't think there can be any meeting of the minds on this topic. Women are blamed for their clothing choices, their decision to drink, not doing everything in groups, sending 'mixed signals', having too many partners, not remembering every single detail of an evening that may have involved alcohol, drugs or just sheer exhaustion, the list goes on and on. Our society is inherently inequal, and serious work needs to be done to find an equilibrium. Yes, women shouldn't ogle men in the same way that men shouldn't ogle women. However, mansplaining that into an argument threatens to derail the whole thing. Not talking about it doesn't mean it isn't an issue, it means that trying to find an equivalence between the vastly different experiences of the average man and the average woman is not only an exercise in futility, but it minimizes the very real inequalities that face women every single day.

As for the believing the stories of alleged victims, here's how I see it. Immediately calling into doubt the veracity of an account is far more sexist. There is literally no reason to immediately call into question someone's credibility unless that specific person has lied about similar things in the past. Even the story of the person who was falsely accused doesn't justify such an action. Someone brought false allegations, that is terrible. To equate that automatically to all victims is a level of misogyny that quite frankly boggles the mind. Assuming that women do it "for attention" is exactly the attitude that causes this entire mishegas in the first place. Think about it this way. There are people who think sexual orientation is a choice. Why would you choose a life that brings ridicule, persecution and sometimes worse? Something with assault survivors. The ramifications are huge for that person's life upon making a public accusation. The assumption that it is a lie is intensely damaging and the exact opposite of the goals that an enlightened society should strive for.

I think, as a whole, there has been some truly wonderful discussion in this thread.

And I bet some eyes have been opened, and some people have realized that things they did not intent to offend or insult can and did do those things.

Which is a really good thing. Overall this has been a civil conversation that provoked thought and could help bring about change.

Which is about all we can ask for, right?

"The goal is gender equality, not taking one gender's side."

"Automatically believing a victim is unbelievably sexist."

I'm going to try to tackle both of these things, which appear to be pretty common in this thread. First of all, yes, perfect equality is the goal. However, if you fail to recognize just how far ahead men are than women in this particular arena (and MANY others), then I just really don't think there can be any meeting of the minds on this topic. Women are blamed for their clothing choices, their decision to drink, not doing everything in groups, sending 'mixed signals', having too many partners, not remembering every single detail of an evening that may have involved alcohol, drugs or just sheer exhaustion, the list goes on and on. Our society is inherently inequal, and serious work needs to be done to find an equilibrium. Yes, women shouldn't ogle men in the same way that men shouldn't ogle women. However, mansplaining that into an argument threatens to derail the whole thing. Not talking about it doesn't mean it isn't an issue, it means that trying to find an equivalence between the vastly different experiences of the average man and the average woman is not only an exercise in futility, but it minimizes the very real inequalities that face women every single day.

As for the believing the stories of alleged victims, here's how I see it. Immediately calling into doubt the veracity of an account is far more sexist. There is literally no reason to immediately call into question someone's credibility unless that specific person has lied about similar things in the past. Even the story of the person who was falsely accused doesn't justify such an action. Someone brought false allegations, that is terrible. To equate that automatically to all victims is a level of misogyny that quite frankly boggles the mind. Assuming that women do it "for attention" is exactly the attitude that causes this entire mishegas in the first place. Think about it this way. There are people who think sexual orientation is a choice. Why would you choose a life that brings ridicule, persecution and sometimes worse? Something with assault survivors. The ramifications are huge for that person's life upon making a public accusation. The assumption that it is a lie is intensely damaging and the exact opposite of the goals that an enlightened society should strive for.

This. And I am really really glad that we as a community can discuss this in a (mostly) civil and reasonable manner.

"The goal is gender equality, not taking one gender's side."

"Automatically believing a victim is unbelievably sexist."

I'm going to try to tackle both of these things, which appear to be pretty common in this thread. First of all, yes, perfect equality is the goal. However, if you fail to recognize just how far ahead men are than women in this particular arena (and MANY others), then I just really don't think there can be any meeting of the minds on this topic. Women are blamed for their clothing choices, their decision to drink, not doing everything in groups, sending 'mixed signals', having too many partners, not remembering every single detail of an evening that may have involved alcohol, drugs or just sheer exhaustion, the list goes on and on. Our society is inherently inequal, and serious work needs to be done to find an equilibrium. Yes, women shouldn't ogle men in the same way that men shouldn't ogle women. However, mansplaining that into an argument threatens to derail the whole thing. Not talking about it doesn't mean it isn't an issue, it means that trying to find an equivalence between the vastly different experiences of the average man and the average woman is not only an exercise in futility, but it minimizes the very real inequalities that face women every single day.

One of the big turning points for me was when I was thinking about this sort of topic and thought to myself that while women shouldn't expect to be attacked they should carry mace or travel in groups to be on the safe side...and then realized how ****ed up it is that I felt perfectly safe wandering over to a gas station at 2:00 am, completely unarmed and carrying money.

I love this. This is the point of conversations like this. To open some eyes. I love that you can say this and realize that.

Man, there are some patently ridiculous posts in this thread.

Alternatively:

Woman, there are some patently ridiculous posts in this thread

For real, though. This is getting silly

We probably do. Harrassment = bad. No-one is gonna argue. Anything . literally anything past the staring argument is = 100% bad.

No-one is arguing this.

My point is that a near naked 20 year old is hard not to stare at. Even when you are really, really trying not to.

I hid an experiment in the above sentence. First person to call it out gets an internet cookie, or a +1, or something.

The hypocrisy of using the word "mansplaining" when discussing sexism never ceases to tickle me.

Yeah. Though I actually like that there is word for it. As mentioned early, it is partly annoying and partly hilarious when my AoR GM tries to mansplain league of legends to me. One day I am going to tell her really I am playing league since years and spent way more time and money on than I should.

We really need a more gender neutral term for this. ;-)

Being shy around women and feeling nervous talking to them is social awkwardness. Groping them and making sexually suggestive comments towards them isn't.

We call the groping death wish and the sexually suggestive comments either call for physical pain or humor. The later depends on how talented the delinquent is. ;-)

And now I am out of this, enough social justice crushing done, I really should catch up with work.

Saying "we need equality for all genders" is like saying "all lives matter"

No ****

but thats not the problem

White guys aren't the ones getting shot by police

and men aren't the ones in fear of harrassment every day

Everyone should be equal

and by awknowledging that inequality and making note of it and trying to act on it we can actually do something

Women are not treated equally in our society let alone in gaming culture

but I digress

The fact that women are treated this way is attrocious and should be talked about and we should make steps to make them feel more comfortable coming to this community

because while a lot of you would like to say "well I don't know women who game anyway"

That doesn't mean there aren't women who game and by us saying things like that we discourage them even further

Missing it? No.

Pointing out that it can and will lead to people staring because human nature.

Ohgodhellyes.

Yes and thats on THEM not the person wearing the outfit. ITS THEIR responsibility to control their own actions

In regards to women who game: MAYBE if you don't make a big deal over the fact that they are women and that they game, you might see it more often.

Maybe.

Also. I suggest looking up the meaning of human nature. Yeah we can control our actions, some of us better than others.

I still think that in the greater scheme of things maybe a little dress sense (and again, both genders) can go a long way to removing that as an issue.

As I've said before. I don't wanna see it...

Congrats you argument on human nature is the exact argument used in some r ape cases good on you

And now for a round of name that fallacy.

One of these things is not like the other. One is staring, the other is sexual assault.

One is legal.

One is not

One is a human hardcoded reaction.

One is sexual assault.

Well you're saying that it is the person's responsibility to discourage such behavior toward them I'M SAYING IT'S BOTH SIDES RESPONSIBILITY, JESUS HOW HARD IS THIS I DON'T EVEN. OBEYING SOCIAL CONVENTIONS IS ALL THAT I AM SUGGESTING.

so the real question is

Where is the line that you draw in this case on when it is the other person's responsibility Already discussed.

"Sexual harassment may include ***LEERING***, pressure for dates, pressing or rubbing against a person, obscene phone calls, bra snapping, wolf-whistles, lip-smacking, indecent exposure, sexual discrimination, displaying explicit materials, sexist jokes, unwanted grabbing, comments about person's body, soliciting sexual services."

Isn't it odd that sexual harrasment (and further) is the only crime where the victim recieves as much blame as the perpetrator?

Would someone being shot be their fault?

Would being robbed?

why is it the person's responsibility to not be harrassed?

Part of the problem with those comparisons are that it is fairly unambiguous when someone has been shot or robbed. Harassment isn't always as clear because a lot of times there can be a subjective component to it. The harasser may not even realize that their attention is unwanted until confronted about it.

That doesn't excuse harassment and it doesn't mean it's the victim's fault.

Can we also discuss in a civil and reasonable manner why some of the community's squad building subforum posts don't get a discussion? It's obvious that a discussion is what is wanted, otherwise one would not post it in the first place. That's a subject associated directly with x-wing that should be addressed on the main forums. There are posts that people just lurk on and then others made an hour later that get several replies. Why is that? What can we do to actually start a good x-wing squad discussion while correctly posting in the correct subforum?

Also, I don't want to go too far with this (for example, I think Darius and I agree on like 95% of this whole thing - it's that 5% that's turning into a bear of an argument/discussion).

I really don't understand SJW as an insult. To me it's kind of like using socialist as an insult. It just doesn't work. That brings me back to my earlier point. You don't have a right to say what other people find offensive. If someone is offended, they aren't "imagining things," they aren't "too sensitive," they are offended. Sure, the intent may not have been to offend, but the end result was offense. Why is it so hard to apologize? Why do people have to double down?

It is unfortunately a loaded term as dispite the original intentions of those who first used it a huge portion of those under that umbrella are ones who don't actually care about the issues and just use social justice as a justification of cyberbullying with no intent on improving the well-being of the oppressed.

Honestly, I kinda was just used to discussing those on the main page and keep forgetting to check.

Also, I don't want to go too far with this (for example, I think Darius and I agree on like 95% of this whole thing - it's that 5% that's turning into a bear of an argument/discussion).

I really don't understand SJW as an insult. To me it's kind of like using socialist as an insult. It just doesn't work. That brings me back to my earlier point. You don't have a right to say what other people find offensive. If someone is offended, they aren't "imagining things," they aren't "too sensitive," they are offended. Sure, the intent may not have been to offend, but the end result was offense. Why is it so hard to apologize? Why do people have to double down?

Darius and I have both used SJW to refer specifically to people who get carried away. While they mostly exist in the minds of people who are somewhat sexist/racist and don't realize it, there are some people that will lose it at you if you're...I don't know, a white guy with dreads or something? They're sort of a reverse of that guy I've mentioned a few times--he's insecure because he doesn't live up to the pillar of Braum-like masculinity he thinks he has to be and because he can't accept that his divorce hurt him deeply. SJWs (as I define them) are often insecure and lash out at the "normal" people (white heterosexuals) because it comes with less social difficulty than being gay or trans or a minority, and they resent that I and others like me don't have to deal with it. Or sometimes they're just racist.

Essentially I think of the term as an insult that means "you have some serious hate issues and resent anyone you think was born into advantages that you didn't have, and you use social causes to vent them because you think it makes you a good person." Admittedly the term has lost a lot of meaning from other people using it for different things and from people who are in the wrong using it to try and deny their own prejudices ("I made one little joke about slavery and this SJW just lost it on me"), so I've stopped using it.

So to sum up this thread:

Harassment = real and bad

Crazy arguments over minor stuff while other people have discussions on serious stuff

The X-wing Motto has been slightly modified (see my signature)(Credit: DariusAPB and indirectly myself)

By motion of Warpman, I might become the first Rebel Y-wing with an EPT

More arguments and discussion

Emphasis on the internet *IS* really confusing

Bacon brings everyone closer together

More arguments and discussion

Very important statement by GroggyGolem about the conditions of squadbuilding discussion

This post

Oh also, the amount of views this thread gets is proportional to how much body paint is mentioned. (Credit: DariusAPB)

Is that about right?

That about sums it up.

P.S. Come on, credit where credits due.

So to sum up this thread:

Harassment = real and bad

Crazy arguments over minor stuff while other people have discussions on serious stuff

The X-wing Motto has been slightly modified (see my signature)

By motion of Warpman, I might become the first Rebel Y-wing with an EPT

More arguments and discussion

Emphasis on the internet *IS* really confusing

Bacon brings everyone closer together

More arguments and discussion

Very important statement by GroggyGolem about the conditions of squadbuilding discussion

This post

Oh also, the amount of views this thread gets is proportional to how much body paint is mentioned.

Is that about right?

It's maintained a solid 60 people since the body paint was mentioned. No delivery on that yet though.

Fixed.

This thread turned out suprisingly constructive, unlike the rage bonfire the one a year back turned into.

Thank you good sir. I'd include a like but I've been dry for like 8 pages.

I'm sorry guys. I have no body paint. It was all an elaborate ruse.

And we are down to 51...

****...