But the real problem is by far more complicated, as I have been trying to tell you. Sometimes people can dress too provocatively. At this point, it's not, it cannot be 100% the fault of the guy staring. Again, not going further than staring - as that gets to black and white territory real quick.

Harassment is wrong. Totally. 100%. Fairly sure I've not argued to the contrary, largely because as much as a contrarian as I tend to be, I'm not an a-hole. This comes down to education and the glacial changes of western society. It is and will continue to improve over time.

When you get a cold you are gonna get better, you take the medicine to kill the symptoms you have so you can make it easier to that point in time.

I never was charged for the alleged offenses. My alibi checked out. Being over an hour away with receipts to prove it tends to help said alibi. I now just had her public accusation against me vs the evidence. Care to guess how the campus communities responded?

I don't vilify alleged victims but I dang well refuse to automatically believe them.

Slight side note counseling isn't needed for everything upsetting or life changing. 6 months after the first instance I was in a war zone where I saw much worse than a bunch of 18-20 y/o saying mean things to someone that the campus felt it was ok to ostracize.

Again, I am very sorry this happened to you because it sounds like the mean things those 18-20 said really effected you. That's why I suggested counseling, because you are still holding onto it in a very clear way. Not to offend or anything like that, but because it obviously affected your ability to trust a victim, which is something that you want fixed in case you have a daughter. I would hope you would give her the benefit of the doubt if she came to you with something like this.

People can jump to conclusions without looking at the evidence, you are so very, very right about that. For what it's worth, I won't judge someone accused until the evidence points towards them. End of story. Not everyone is that way, and I'm sorry you experienced that.

wait, what?!&
19 pages? just a couple hours ago I congradulated page 7 about not being "white males should be ashamed" attitude!

SWEET SPACE JESUS, EVEN HALP THREAD DIDN'T GO THAT FAST!

With the publics ability to punish a person for an alleged crime even after law enforcement has exonerated that individual its costs a lot to believe a woman without evidence. You and people like you drove me from my college due to your view that a woman's claims should immediately be believed. Your line of thinking destroys the lives of everyone who has been falsely accused of a crime.

The worst of it is that even years later I'm still called a rapist by people from that school. So no I refuse to believe a tale spun by anyone without at least some evidence to back it up. Women can be liars and sadistic just like men. The idea that they deserve to be automatically believed is ridiculously sexist.

I'm truly sorry for what you went through. It sounds like it deeply affected you, and you may benefit from some counseling for it.

That said, being found -NOT GUILTY- does not mean innocent. Does not mean it did not happen. Yes, there are false accusations, but they are not as prevalent as the internet would like you to believe. I should not have to open my legs or show bruises to prove that there is physical trauma from my assault to someone other than the police. I've done that. And then been told, "Sorry, you did invite him to your room..." (to play super smash brothers on N64).

So based on that it didn't happen, right? I wish you could tell my flashbacks that.

Look, I'm not saying everyone is telling the truth, everyone is a victim. But what I am saying is what do you lose by saying, "I'm sorry that happened to you?" No one is saying vilify the accused without evidence either.

Just don't vilify the victim.

It may be difficult to apply in a real life situation, but treating any claims of sexual abuse seriously while holding to innocent until proven guilty may be the way to go here. It's unlikely that someone outside the police or another neutral group would have any meaningful contact with both groups, so if (for example) a person I knew was claiming to have been sexually assaulted by some guy I could be supportive towards her while never repeating the name of the person she accused or otherwise identifying him. Likewise, if a guy I knew was accused of such a thing...that one's more difficult but I'd hold to phrasing it as "he was accused of" or "X was done to her, and she thinks he's the guy who did it" so that I can acknowledge that the girl is a victim of something while giving me plenty of openings to remind people that "innocent until proven guilty" is in our justice system for a reason.

You have put what I was trying to say much more eloquently. Yes, this is what I meant. You can support the victim without damming the accused.

The idea that they deserve to be automatically believed is ridiculously sexist.

This. Hate to say it guys but people lie for loads of different reasons, this is why we have a legal system. It is flawed, but it's there.

It should be improved, yes. But the phrase we should all remember is innocent until proven guilty.

We are talking past each other I think.

Guilty until proven innocent is something for your justice system. At the same time you need to investigate to prove that someone is guilty. Which again would suggest believing the victim, right? Because else there would be no point in investigations. You can support a alleged **** victim with downright crucifying the alleged rapist before trial. I really believe that most posters in this discussion are very close in practise to each other, they just like to emphasis different things, while others go for them without saying. "You don't stare, it rude", I said. Naturally it can happen still, it still rude, but whatever, it goes without saying that sometimes people will not show their best behavior. That goes as well without saying. And so on, really does not seem that all of us are that far off from each other.

That's the truth. A lot of it comes down to definitions, hows and whys.

I'm really not comfortable arguing the more severe stuff, because in my mind yeah. No means no.

I'm not going to argue that, but i will point out that people have lied.

A friend of mine had a false accusation shot at him before. Not pleasant.

The term SJW is among those that should just die out from online discussion.

And yet the term gains traction because there are a lot of people out there self-identifying as SJWs who are pretty vile people. In principle, I dislike grouping people by identities and not as individuals, but SJWs make that very difficult for me to stick to.

But the real problem is by far more complicated, as I have been trying to tell you. Sometimes people can dress too provocatively. At this point, it's not, it cannot be 100% the fault of the guy staring. Again, not going further than staring - as that gets to black and white territory real quick.

Harassment is wrong. Totally. 100%. Fairly sure I've not argued to the contrary, largely because as much as a contrarian as I tend to be, I'm not an a-hole. This comes down to education and the glacial changes of western society. It is and will continue to improve over time.

When you get a cold you are gonna get better, you take the medicine to kill the symptoms you have so you can make it easier to that point in time.

It isn't a problem that will go away if we ignore

Sometimes we need to take the hard road (aka antibiotics in this metaphor) to actually deal with the problem

Which is

In reality

We need to stop sexually objectifying women

I sure do love bacon for breakfast.

Guys this is a forum for discussing our latest strategies to destroy our enemies with little plastic Star Wars ships. I know this is a serious topic but some of y'all are getting waay to riled up. If you want to keep the discussion going some of you need to take a deep breath and turn your capslock off.

And yes Bacon is better then sausage.

Fly Casual, Crush Your Enemies.

I sure do love bacon for breakfast.

Guys this is a forum for discussing our latest strategies to destroy our enemies with little plastic Star Wars ships. I know this is a serious topic but some of y'all are getting waay to riled up. If you want to keep the discussion going some of you need to take a deep breath and turn your capslock off.

And yes Bacon is better then sausage.

Fly Casual, Crush Your Enemies.

I admit I have the bad habit of capslocking to show emphasis when I should italicize or bold. Why do italics look so darn sarcastic, though?

You bring in bacon just as I run out of likes. Granted, it isn't positively on topic and the correct placement is still to be debated. There have been some good things said and I would like to see further POSITIVE statements on the issue without getting us locked by page 25.

True, italics for emphasis do look almost mocking.

Terrifying are the monsters we create when we let crime go unpunished. People (not only men, but certainly mostly men) who think they can always weasel out of consequences because their parents either:

A. didn't instill even a decent sense of morality

B. didn't provide real consequences for wrong-doings

C. fostered outdated social standards

or D. all of the above

In most cases, it's all of the above... and it's sad. So many couples jump headfirst into parenthood without ANY idea of how to raise a well-adjusted human being. Schools can't provide developmental support for each individual child. The system lets orphans fall through the cracks. Many religions promote a code of morality, but they always seem to be tossed aside when they're not convenient. The human being is born perfect, a blank slate. It's their live experiences that form the hero or villain they become. While there are many gems hidden in the dirt, the majority of humanity operates on a more animalistic frequency. In the words of Agent K, "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

That being said, the highest ideal of any morality code is this: "Treat other people as you would like to be treated."

The fact that someone can learn this ideal (or even know it exists), and still treat women and people of other races with disdain and disrespect means that there is something wrong with that person... like, on a deep psychological level. I don't want to drag politics into this, but as Bernie Sanders frequently says "We're all in this together." Everyone is a person... woman, man, white, black, asian, Klingon... and while no one person is truly entitled to anything, everyone deserves respect.

It's easy to turn a blind eye to the suffering of others, but when anyone suffers... it's not just them. When you suffer, I suffer. When I suffer, someone else suffers. Humanity is a lot more interconnected than most people think. As an empathic person, I've experienced a lot of feelings and emotions that don't only reflect my life experiences, but those of the people I'm closest to. They're simply results of my sponge-like emotional receptors (and Jedi abilities).

I was raised in a family that could be considered matriarchal. The women have always had the power in my family, and were always treated with respect. My father always had the better paying job, but my mom handled all the money in the family. She made all the decisions, and thank God because my father was and still is ill-equipped to lead a family. So I have a deep-seeded respect for women that most men don't share. I can always spot a man that doesn't respect women, and it always causes a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

Like those of you who think it's alright to undress a woman with your eyes, staring at her just because of what she's wearing. Imagination is fine and all, they're your thoughts... but for the love of God, be considerate of her feelings. If she's showing a lot of skin, it's probably hot out... or maybe she gets hot easily. Plenty of people do. I run like a bloody space-heater most of the time. If I was more confident in my body, you can bet your last dollar I'd be wearing sleeveless shirts and tank tops every day of the summer. If she's truly doing it for attention, then that's also her prerogative. It's not a crime to get a glance, appreciate someone's beauty, and then move on. Just be respectful.

Jim Carrey gave a commencement speech not too long ago that discussed "doing what you love". He pointed out that most people make their decisions based on two things: love and fear. Unfortunately, too many of us give into that fear. I know I do. The fear of being slapped with a negative label, the fear of consequences, the fear of being alone in a crowd of strangers, the fear of embarrassing yourself... many of these fears keep us from doing the things we love. I think it's absolutely terrible that there are people out there that want to bully or harass someone out of doing something that they love... Those people are true villains... and the only way to fight them is to not let them win. Never let them keep you down or shut you out.

I've dealt with bullies my whole life that would pick and chip away relentlessly at the thin veneer of my patience, and whenever I finally broke... I was the one out of line because they were "only joking". I turned the tables. I let that pain drive me to do better. Whenever I play anything competitive, I welcome insults and trash talk. The deeper it cuts, the better I perform. There's nothing wrong with being the underdog. In fact, it's what I prefer to be...

Martial arts training and ideology has taught me to do everything I can to avoid physical conflict, but if I ever saw anyone harass someone like the instances described in that article... I'd go full Punisher on their ass. And if the store does nothing about it, that store needs new management. Period.

"Be excellent to each other." Words to live by.

True, italics for emphasis do look almost mocking.

Why is that? Caps look like yelling. Italics look like neener neener boo booing, and bold just makes me feel like I'm talking really loud in a voice that covers the whole room.

I should stick to -emphasis like this-, because its the least weird I guess.

"We need to stop sexually objectifying women"

Yes, we do.

But that loops back to my point of a good start being not making a big deal when you see them at gaming/hobby stores.

Calling out the obvious sexism. (The K-wing example from 10 pages ago).

Just being decent. No-one needs to go out of their way.

Maybe, sexual objectifying should be just kept out of the game room full. ****. stop.

I will continue to use italics and bold for emphasis.

For me SJW is a descriptor. See white knight.

A descriptor should not be loaded with imaginative claims that basically no sane person would make. It's a liberal equivalent of teabaggers. Does not really sound descriptive, and even white knight is loaded with accusations imho.

On top of that SJW was literally used in this topic for over-sensitive retards already. I mean, that is descriptive, just very rarely fitting for real people and these days it has become nearly a guarantee to derail any reasonable discussion. It's basically name calling because of the stereotype attached to it.

Wow holy moley this is a lot to take in:

1. Men, more than women are wired for sex. In a polite society, men dont sexually assault or necessarily even touch women, that is the way it is. However to say that staring or looking isnt ok is completely irrational in our "Sports Illustrated Paint On Swimsuit edition" kind of world.

2. Women feeling unsafe in any environment means that something should probably change in that environment. Its up to each of us to make our game store inclusive for everyone, that includes, gays, kids, women, men, christians, muslims, devil worshipers.

3. Women feeling less worth by men is wrong. Part of that is probably due to how women handle situations (I have found that in the US women are culturally less assertive than men, this is my own opinion and get mad if you want), but blame falls on men to treat all TOs and everyone with respect.

"We need to stop sexually objectifying women"

Yes, we do.

But that loops back to my point of a good start being not making a big deal when you see them at gaming/hobby stores.

Calling out the obvious sexism. (The K-wing example from 10 pages ago).

Just being decent. No-one needs to go out of their way.

But when someone does something that makes another uncomfortable (not just women) I discourage that behavior

That all I do, it just so happens that I see it more often against women

Wow holy moley this is a lot to take in:

1. Men, more than women are wired for sex. In a polite society, men dont sexually assault or necessarily even touch women, that is the way it is. However to say that staring or looking isnt ok is completely irrational in our "Sports Illustrated Paint On Swimsuit edition" kind of world.

2. Women feeling unsafe in any environment means that something should probably change in that environment. Its up to each of us to make our game store inclusive for everyone, that includes, gays, kids, women, men, christians, muslims, devil worshipers.

3. Women feeling less worth by men is wrong. Part of that is probably due to how women handle situations (I have found that in the US women are culturally less assertive than men, this is my own opinion and get mad if you want), but blame falls on men to treat all TOs and everyone with respect.

The less assertive thing, I think, comes from the fact that we can be labeled "a b*tch" when a dude is "assertive". So women are trained from a young age to not be seen that way.

I don't care. Call me a b*tch all you want. It's an awful, gendered slur but whatever.

"We need to stop sexually objectifying women"

Yes, we do.

But that loops back to my point of a good start being not making a big deal when you see them at gaming/hobby stores.

Calling out the obvious sexism. (The K-wing example from 10 pages ago).

Just being decent. No-one needs to go out of their way.

I don't do that

But when someone does something that makes another uncomfortable (not just women) I discourage that behavior

That all I do, it just so happens that I see it more often against women

You might not, but people do.

That's as sexist as making the obvious catcalls, as that is essentially in a roundabout way telling the lady she isn't supposed to be there. Hey, you are a woman in a mans room. Why are you here?

That's a real sexist issue. One I am quite proud of literally never doing.

The term SJW is among those that should just die out from online discussion.

And yet the term gains traction because there are a lot of people out there self-identifying as SJWs who are pretty vile people. In principle, I dislike grouping people by identities and not as individuals, but SJWs make that very difficult for me to stick to.

For me SJW is a descriptor. See white knight.

A descriptor should not be loaded with imaginative claims that basically no sane person would make. It's a liberal equivalent of teabaggers. Does not really sound descriptive, and even white knight is loaded with accusations imho.

On top of that SJW was literally used in this topic for over-sensitive retards already. I mean, that is descriptive, just very rarely fitting for real people and these days it has become nearly a guarantee to derail any reasonable discussion. It's basically name calling because of the stereotype attached to it.

I've always heard SJW used as an insult directed at people that find racism or sexism where there isn't any and get extremely hostile about it, often displaying a prejudice towards people who are either straight, white or male (often more than one). I usually use "egalitarian" for people working to overcome problems with prejudice that are being reasonable about it. If they focus on a specific group I usually call them an activist. I tend to avoid the term feminist because it has some connotations, which is unfortunate but I still need to be aware of it when speaking.

^^ same.

"The goal is gender equality, not taking one gender's side."

"Automatically believing a victim is unbelievably sexist."

I'm going to try to tackle both of these things, which appear to be pretty common in this thread. First of all, yes, perfect equality is the goal. However, if you fail to recognize just how far ahead men are than women in this particular arena (and MANY others), then I just really don't think there can be any meeting of the minds on this topic. Women are blamed for their clothing choices, their decision to drink, not doing everything in groups, sending 'mixed signals', having too many partners, not remembering every single detail of an evening that may have involved alcohol, drugs or just sheer exhaustion, the list goes on and on. Our society is inherently inequal, and serious work needs to be done to find an equilibrium. Yes, women shouldn't ogle men in the same way that men shouldn't ogle women. However, mansplaining that into an argument threatens to derail the whole thing. Not talking about it doesn't mean it isn't an issue, it means that trying to find an equivalence between the vastly different experiences of the average man and the average woman is not only an exercise in futility, but it minimizes the very real inequalities that face women every single day.

As for the believing the stories of alleged victims, here's how I see it. Immediately calling into doubt the veracity of an account is far more sexist. There is literally no reason to immediately call into question someone's credibility unless that specific person has lied about similar things in the past. Even the story of the person who was falsely accused doesn't justify such an action. Someone brought false allegations, that is terrible. To equate that automatically to all victims is a level of misogyny that quite frankly boggles the mind. Assuming that women do it "for attention" is exactly the attitude that causes this entire mishegas in the first place. Think about it this way. There are people who think sexual orientation is a choice. Why would you choose a life that brings ridicule, persecution and sometimes worse? Something with assault survivors. The ramifications are huge for that person's life upon making a public accusation. The assumption that it is a lie is intensely damaging and the exact opposite of the goals that an enlightened society should strive for.

I sure do love bacon for breakfast.

Guys this is a forum for discussing our latest strategies to destroy our enemies with little plastic Star Wars ships. I know this is a serious topic but some of y'all are getting waay to riled up. If you want to keep the discussion going some of you need to take a deep breath and turn your capslock off.

And yes Bacon is better then sausage.

Fly Casual, Crush Your Enemies.

And I enjoy this hobby with my wife. Besides that good ham beats cheap bacon anyday. And after having bacon, ham and eggs for breakfast, I want to go to a tournament with my wife, and I want that she enjoys such events as much as I do. So I guess this topic would be important for me if this is more than just local problems with a few stores and publishers. SO I see some relevance for X-Wing players here.

Besides that, you should fly casual and stab your enemies. Have you any ideas what a mess you make with mace? Stab your enemy, do not crush!

But maaaaam Conan said cruuush.

I think, as a whole, there has been some truly wonderful discussion in this thread.

And I bet some eyes have been opened, and some people have realized that things they did not intent to offend or insult can and did do those things.

Which is a really good thing. Overall this has been a civil conversation that provoked thought and could help bring about change.

Which is about all we can ask for, right?