And that's because third wavers are overly sensitive and incapable of rational discourse, delighting in painting themselves as victims.

Not really. It is because we are retards. The overly sensitive and incapable of rational discourse feminist as representation of feminists exist in your head and in your filter bubble. That picture is about as real as the fat, redneck american who supports his troop to kill, ****, torture and maim muslime all over the globe and collect their ears and noses. It is just not real, even when you might find a few cases supporting both views, but they do not represent the groups they are aligned with. Reality is different than our enemy stereotype. And the massive propagation of enemy stereotypes might have escalated the whole thing dramatically and hinders any productive discussion immensely.

Would someone being shot be their fault? If they antagonized someone with a gun. Probably. Because you just don't know.
Would being robbed? If they left their keys in their ferrari. Probably. One should always expect having to deal with an a-hole.

why is it the person's responsibility to not be harassed.

If they went out in really, really inappropriate gear. They are probably gonna get stares. If they don't want stares, it is not a massive logical jump to dress in a way that this is mitigated.

Is it ok? No probably not. I have not made any arguments to the contrary. It will happen.

I never got the cat calling, never done it, never saw a point. I accept that it happens. Probably shouldn't.

The important thing to remember is you lose nothing from believing a victim.

There's obviously a lot of inappropriate stuff that goes on that I'm not exposed to and I agree with a lot of what you've written but I think that bit I've quoted sounds great as a bumper sticker or t-shirt slogan but can be dangerous if carried too far in practice. For a high profile example of this look at the Duke Lacrosse case.

The article that was linked goes far beyond unwanted attention or unwelcoming and antisocial behavior. She describes being drugged and raped by a friend. There's a lot of unacceptable crap that the author describes but the lack of police response to that one truly shocked me.

I should asterisk that and say there is nothing to lose with the general public* believing a victim. Law and media needs to do the due diligence, but you lose nothing when a friend tells you she's been assaulted and you believe her. That's my whole point. There is a duty for the law and media to fact check before they publish and punish.

But when I shared stories of my assault, I wasn't naming names. I didn't ask anyone to ruin a reputation. I was asking for support. A lot of people in this thread seem to have the attitude that no victim gets their support unless they come forward with evidence fit for a trial when they ask for it.

With the publics ability to punish a person for an alleged crime even after law enforcement has exonerated that individual its costs a lot to believe a woman without evidence. You and people like you drove me from my college due to your view that a woman's claims should immediately be believed. Your line of thinking destroys the lives of everyone who has been falsely accused of a crime.

The worst of it is that even years later I'm still called a rapist by people from that school. So no I refuse to believe a tale spun by anyone without at least some evidence to back it up. Women can be liars and sadistic just like men. The idea that they deserve to be automatically believed is ridiculously sexist.

Thank you ladies and gentlemen... I think we have gone as far toward the goal of explaining our cases in good and bad light.

Let's not get into name calling or character assasination... that benefits no one.

Obviously it seems that there are a few issues, from the small ones that seem like jokes to the huge ones that place someone's life in danger.

As a community that believes in Fly Casual, what can we personally do to make things better in our environment?

Some things are obvious, but what else needs to happen so that we are more inclusive in our dealings with fellow people?

How can we become the example for gaming culture and not be just a comparison statistic that "we aren't that bad" while making no change?

I don't know that we individually have answers, but let's take this thread back into a positive direction, please...

Well, if anyone owns a Gaming store here, I think they should run a Women's night or a LGBT gaming night even (more likely to bring an idea of a "safe environment" ) I know Bike collectives in my town have them and it's a huge success, so why not gaming stores? While it becomes more common and popular in an area for women to get together to game together, so too will the want to test up against the player base as a whole at Store Championships.

I think these would be positive steps.

The idea that they deserve to be automatically believed is ridiculously sexist.

This. Hate to say it guys but people lie for loads of different reasons, this is why we have a legal system. It is flawed, but it's there.

It should be improved, yes. But the phrase we should all remember is innocent until proven guilty.

studies show 4/5 women when asked will reject the term feminist because they don't want people to think they hate men.

What studies are these, out of interest?

Having trouble finding the exact one but:

http://www.avoiceformen.net/featured/new-poll-results-the-decimation-of-feminism/

References one that's similar, my tablets search engine isn't being cooperative atm.

With the publics ability to punish a person for an alleged crime even after law enforcement has exonerated that individual its costs a lot to believe a woman without evidence. You and people like you drove me from my college due to your view that a woman's claims should immediately be believed. Your line of thinking destroys the lives of everyone who has been falsely accused of a crime.

The worst of it is that even years later I'm still called a rapist by people from that school. So no I refuse to believe a tale spun by anyone without at least some evidence to back it up. Women can be liars and sadistic just like men. The idea that they deserve to be automatically believed is ridiculously sexist.

I'm truly sorry for what you went through. It sounds like it deeply affected you, and you may benefit from some counseling for it.

That said, being found -NOT GUILTY- does not mean innocent. Does not mean it did not happen. Yes, there are false accusations, but they are not as prevalent as the internet would like you to believe. I should not have to open my legs or show bruises to prove that there is physical trauma from my assault to someone other than the police. I've done that. And then been told, "Sorry, you did invite him to your room..." (to play super smash brothers on N64).

So based on that it didn't happen, right? I wish you could tell my flashbacks that.

Look, I'm not saying everyone is telling the truth, everyone is a victim. But what I am saying is what do you lose by saying, "I'm sorry that happened to you?" No one is saying vilify the accused without evidence either.

Just don't vilify the victim.

The term SJW is among those that should just die out from online discussion.

Its almost as bad as German Facebook where our "new right" (neonazis in suits if you ask me) counters any valid argument they can't answer by calling people who bring them up "Gutmenschen". Thats a term that the historical nazis used to discredit their opponents.

Not saying SJW is used that way here, but in my opinion the term alone weakens how your position looks and if you want to actually convince people with your arguments you should refrain from using it.

On the topic of staring and sexual harrasment - no one who argued for not staring sometimes being difficult because of basic biological coding (which is not meant as an excuse, it still isn't okay) connected that to verbal or physical sexual harrasment, which is not only not acceptable, but also inexcusable.

Basically SJW is the new godwin. And yes, SJW is indeed used exactly has the new generation of german nazis are using 'Gutmensch'. It is used by people with different agenda, but as a rhetorical tool it is literally the same.

*grin* Oh and you might have pulled a goodwin with your nazis, though not sure if godwin really applies to 2016 nazis.

The dedication and diversity of tactics with which certain people are trying to quelsh this topic has disturbing implications as to why they don't want this topic discussed...

I see a lot of people talking about sjw culture and over sensitivity and yet so many people are so being offended by the terms used in the article that they are ignoring the actual substance of it. The idea that a victim should have to police their language to avoid hurting the feelings of those in the same demographic is the height of 'polical correctness gone mad!! 1!1'

Additionally the idea that people should just suck it up because other people have it worse is childish and will never lead to things getting better. We can't stop systematic **** in Africa but we can do a lot to make our gaming communities safer and more welcoming to everyone.

My criticism of the original article is not meant to deny the fact that we have a problem. My criticism is that the article is counterproductive because it attacks the majority that it wants to change. As a small side effect it also implies that non-white men are never the problem by repeatedly specifying white men as the people harassing or excluding others, even when their race wasn't really relevant.

Discrimination doesn't become okay when the less powerful group is the one doing it. As someone else observed earlier, replace "white men" with something like Muslims or black guys and that article suddenly gets a whole lot less acceptable. I understand and grudgingly accept that most gaming communities aren't as friendly to women as mine. I understand and accept that I may not be aware of sexual harassment or other things that would keep women out of my gaming community, because I am oblivious to a lot of things. I do not like that article because it heavily implies that I am somehow responsible for things that to the best of my knowledge are only happening at times and places that I simply have no power to influence. The author wants to fight gender and racial discrimination by accusing people of a specific gender and race of sharing the crimes of other people that happen to also be white and male.

I'm not trying to deny her points. I am saying that she presented them horribly and is ultimately preaching to the choir. So far HurricaneMaanen has been the only one really providing a new perspective for me, and that's because she's able to both tell us about some of the awful experiences she has had and not accuse us all of being part of the problem.

As I've said before, the biggest thing I know of in my LGS is a semi-regular that hates women because of a nasty divorce he went through (I suspect most/all of the nastiness was his fault, insecurity is a hell of a drug). He doesn't talk about it in front of women because he's too much of a coward to be open about his hatred. Other guys don't take him seriously because it's obvious to us that he's not secure in his masculinity and he's generally crazy even aside from his horrible attitude towards women and all things feminine. Dude has some kind of bunker out in Saskatchewan, thinks society will collapse any day now.

studies show 4/5 women when asked will reject the term feminist because they don't want people to think they hate men.

What studies are these, out of interest?

Having trouble finding the exact one but:

http://www.avoiceformen.net/featured/new-poll-results-the-decimation-of-feminism/

References one that's similar, my tablets search engine isn't being cooperative atm.

Wow, using a highly charged "meninist" blog as a source. Can you find something credible?

I did not get that memo. For me it's a term that basically replaced White Knight.

Would someone being shot be their fault? If they antagonized someone with a gun. Probably. Because you just don't know.

Would being robbed? If they left their keys in their ferrari. Probably. One should always expect having to deal with an a-hole.

why is it the person's responsibility to not be harassed.

If they went out in really, really inappropriate gear. They are probably gonna get stares. If they don't want stares, it is not a massive logical jump to dress in a way that this is mitigated.

Is it ok? No probably not. I have not made any arguments to the contrary. It will happen.

I never got the cat calling, never done it, never saw a point. I accept that it happens. Probably shouldn't.

It definitely shouldn't happen.

What I am saying is accepting it is the problem

"boys will be boys" is a horrible

because saying "it happens" takes the blame off of the person doing it and putting it soley on the victim.

What I don't understand is why you are defending it if you yourself admit its wrong

The term SJW is among those that should just die out from online discussion.

Its almost as bad as German Facebook where our "new right" (neonazis in suits if you ask me) counters any valid argument they can't answer by calling people who bring them up "Gutmenschen". Thats a term that the historical nazis used to discredit their opponents.

Not saying SJW is used that way here, but in my opinion the term alone weakens how your position looks and if you want to actually convince people with your arguments you should refrain from using it.

On the topic of staring and sexual harrasment - no one who argued for not staring sometimes being difficult because of basic biological coding (which is not meant as an excuse, it still isn't okay) connected that to verbal or physical sexual harrasment, which is not only not acceptable, but also inexcusable.

Basically SJW is the new godwin. And yes, SJW is indeed used exactly has the new generation of german nazis are using 'Gutmensch'. It used by people with different agenda, but as a rhetorical tool it is literally the same.

*grin* Oh and you might have pulled a goodwin with your nazis, though not sure if godwin really applies to 2016 nazis.

I know, I can be guilty of that. But honestly people who belive that Germany should regain territory it lost after WW2 and those who tolerate them amongst them have serious issues.

Your definition of shouldn't is different to mine. Mine is based on society and norms as they exist now, with all the conventions that apply.

Yours is an ideal we have not yet reached.

What you perceive as defense I perceive as mitigation.

I'm not even touching sexual assault, this is not the forum for it. Hence sticking to the less offensive stuff.

Guys stare. This is an undeniable fact. we catch ourselves 99.99% of the time maybe. Still happens.

Where it happens, rather than pretend it doesn't, and pretend that it can't be caused in certain ways. Why not mitigate?

And here we go again...

Seriously. Here's where we pretend that the problems with gaming are race and gender related and not just based on the fact that gaming tends to attract socially awkward types.

Also, women just don't like these kinds of games at anywhere near the rate guys do. They're wargames, and as such don't always hit the parts of fandom that attract female players. Plus, just by virtue of it being an all-male hobby, it will subconsciously be a turn-off for women just based on visual cues, like it or not. And regardless of behavior. You just can't be inclusive all the time if the people you're trying to include don't necessarily want to be included. Wargaming will never be 50% women. It just never will be. When you see those statistics on video games telling you how most players are women? They aren't telling you that most of the women they are talking about are playing single player mobile games and the average female gamer is 10 years older than the average male gamer. The gender distribution in wargames can sometimes be as lopsided as 90+% and even the more balanced ones like mobile games such as Clash of Clans are still over 77% male.

X-Wing is a wargame. Women don't play it because, demographically, women just aren't drawn to wargames at anywhere near the same rate as men. Even with a recognizable license like Star Wars. If you happen to be female, you're a distinct minority, and you have to come to terms with that.

I played RPGs for nearly two decades. We had several women who played with us. On the days we played wargames, women were nowhere to be found, even though they were invited and even encouraged.

No, children. It's not about white men. The reality is that the population of America is still mostly white people. White men are going to dominate any male-oriented hobby in most locations, simply because white men will be most of the men in any given location. But my gaming group for years had two Hispanic guys in it. Why? We live in Southern California. If you're gaming in Ohio or Wisconsin where white people are over 80% of the population, well...

The biggest problem with framing it as a "white male" problem is you're starting the conversation with a false premise, and that's not conducive to a good discussion. And, based on the easily predictable outcome of this thread, you can see I'm right, lol.

studies show 4/5 women when asked will reject the term feminist because they don't want people to think they hate men.

What studies are these, out of interest?

Having trouble finding the exact one but:http://www.avoiceformen.net/featured/new-poll-results-the-decimation-of-feminism/

References one that's similar, my tablets search engine isn't being cooperative atm.

Wow, using a highly charged "meninist" blog as a source. Can you find something credible?

It was just the first result with relevance to my search I've zero clue about the bias of the site in question I was asked a perfectly fair question and tried to provide information to show I wasn't pulling info out of thin air.

Can you find a study that proves it invalid?

With the publics ability to punish a person for an alleged crime even after law enforcement has exonerated that individual its costs a lot to believe a woman without evidence. You and people like you drove me from my college due to your view that a woman's claims should immediately be believed. Your line of thinking destroys the lives of everyone who has been falsely accused of a crime.

The worst of it is that even years later I'm still called a rapist by people from that school. So no I refuse to believe a tale spun by anyone without at least some evidence to back it up. Women can be liars and sadistic just like men. The idea that they deserve to be automatically believed is ridiculously sexist.

I'm truly sorry for what you went through. It sounds like it deeply affected you, and you may benefit from some counseling for it.

That said, being found -NOT GUILTY- does not mean innocent. Does not mean it did not happen. Yes, there are false accusations, but they are not as prevalent as the internet would like you to believe. I should not have to open my legs or show bruises to prove that there is physical trauma from my assault to someone other than the police. I've done that. And then been told, "Sorry, you did invite him to your room..." (to play super smash brothers on N64).

So based on that it didn't happen, right? I wish you could tell my flashbacks that.

Look, I'm not saying everyone is telling the truth, everyone is a victim. But what I am saying is what do you lose by saying, "I'm sorry that happened to you?" No one is saying vilify the accused without evidence either.

Just don't vilify the victim.

I never was charged for the alleged offenses. My alibi checked out. Being over an hour away with receipts to prove it tends to help said alibi. I now just had her public accusation against me vs the evidence. Care to guess how the campus communities responded?

I don't vilify alleged victims but I dang well refuse to automatically believe them.

Slight side note counseling isn't needed for everything upsetting or life changing. 6 months after the first instance I was in a war zone where I saw much worse than a bunch of 18-20 y/o saying mean things to someone that the campus felt it was ok to ostracize.

I think the animosity here is scaling.

I'd like to appeal for any parties to cooldown a little.

I still believe the topic can be salvaged into something

studies show 4/5 women when asked will reject the term feminist because they don't want people to think they hate men.

What studies are these, out of interest?

Having trouble finding the exact one but:http://www.avoiceformen.net/featured/new-poll-results-the-decimation-of-feminism/

References one that's similar, my tablets search engine isn't being cooperative atm.

Wow, using a highly charged "meninist" blog as a source. Can you find something credible?

It was just the first result with relevance to my search I've zero clue about the bias of the site in question I was asked a perfectly fair question and tried to provide information to show I wasn't pulling info out of thin air.

Can you find a study that proves it invalid?

Can you cite a study that proves the assertion that you are a cabbage invalid? Well, then you are a cabbage.

Do you get why arguments don't work like that?

studies show 4/5 women when asked will reject the term feminist because they don't want people to think they hate men.

What studies are these, out of interest?

Having trouble finding the exact one but:http://www.avoiceformen.net/featured/new-poll-results-the-decimation-of-feminism/

References one that's similar, my tablets search engine isn't being cooperative atm.

Wow, using a highly charged "meninist" blog as a source. Can you find something credible?

It was just the first result with relevance to my search I've zero clue about the bias of the site in question I was asked a perfectly fair question and tried to provide information to show I wasn't pulling info out of thin air.

Can you find a study that proves it invalid?

This one!

http://www.theonion.com/article/report-getting-out-bed-morning-sharply-increases-r-52430

Your definition of shouldn't is different to mine. Mine is based on society and norms as they exist now, with all the conventions that apply.

Yours is an ideal we have not yet reached.

What you perceive as defense I perceive as mitigation.

I'm not even touching sexual assault, this is not the forum for it. Hence sticking to the less offensive stuff.

Guys stare. This is an undeniable fact. we catch ourselves 99.99% of the time maybe. Still happens.

Where it happens, rather than pretend it doesn't, and pretend that it can't be caused in certain ways. Why not mitigate?

because that's the problem society is facing right now. By mitigating we aren't addressing the REAL problem which is that some men think its alright to stare and harass women.

Women get harrassed still when they are fully clothed.

By making it not okay to harass and leer even with the least ammount of clothing we actually adress the problem and hopefully work to make it better.

Its the same with anything in reality.

Fixing a symptom may be easier but fixing the illness that causes that symptom is what will actually help in the long run

It was just the first result with relevance to my search I've zero clue about the bias of the site in question I was asked a perfectly fair question and tried to provide information to show I wasn't pulling info out of thin air.

Can you find a study that proves it invalid?

No, I can't. And I can accept that you may be right that a lot of women do not want to call themselves feminists because of the negative connotations. I'm just pointing out that, if you want your argument accepted, you probably should not post a source that reads like theredpill.

The idea that they deserve to be automatically believed is ridiculously sexist.

This. Hate to say it guys but people lie for loads of different reasons, this is why we have a legal system. It is flawed, but it's there.

It should be improved, yes. But the phrase we should all remember is innocent until proven guilty.

We are talking past each other I think.

Guilty until proven innocent is something for your justice system. At the same time you need to investigate to prove that someone is guilty. Which again would suggest believing the victim, right? Because else there would be no point in investigations. You can support a alleged **** victim without downright crucifying the alleged rapist before trial. I really believe that most posters in this discussion are very close in practise to each other, they just like to emphasis different things, while others go for them without saying. "You don't stare, it rude", I said. Naturally it can happen still, it still rude, but whatever, it goes without saying that sometimes people will not show their best behavior. That goes as well without saying. And so on, really does not seem that all of us are that far off from each other.

I can only speak for myself and a few others at my FLGS but we try to be as inclusive as possible. If anyone stops to have a look at the game I chat with them and offer to do a demo. We do have one woman who plays occasionally. Her and her husband both play but they have a 5 to 8 year old daughter whom I recall has dance practice and recitals pretty frequently, so they don't come by every week.

She has remarked to me that she has been to other stores and tournaments and a few times had guys explaining the rules to her while they played, though she didn't ask. Apparently it has gotten some what better over the course of the last year, at least she hasn't had any of those sorts of incidents in a while.

For my part, I've never witnessed any behavior like that but if I do I will say something. I understand that a woman may not want me to help her but if I keep my objections to myself I would feel complicit.

With the publics ability to punish a person for an alleged crime even after law enforcement has exonerated that individual its costs a lot to believe a woman without evidence. You and people like you drove me from my college due to your view that a woman's claims should immediately be believed. Your line of thinking destroys the lives of everyone who has been falsely accused of a crime.

The worst of it is that even years later I'm still called a rapist by people from that school. So no I refuse to believe a tale spun by anyone without at least some evidence to back it up. Women can be liars and sadistic just like men. The idea that they deserve to be automatically believed is ridiculously sexist.

I'm truly sorry for what you went through. It sounds like it deeply affected you, and you may benefit from some counseling for it.

That said, being found -NOT GUILTY- does not mean innocent. Does not mean it did not happen. Yes, there are false accusations, but they are not as prevalent as the internet would like you to believe. I should not have to open my legs or show bruises to prove that there is physical trauma from my assault to someone other than the police. I've done that. And then been told, "Sorry, you did invite him to your room..." (to play super smash brothers on N64).

So based on that it didn't happen, right? I wish you could tell my flashbacks that.

Look, I'm not saying everyone is telling the truth, everyone is a victim. But what I am saying is what do you lose by saying, "I'm sorry that happened to you?" No one is saying vilify the accused without evidence either.

Just don't vilify the victim.

It may be difficult to apply in a real life situation, but treating any claims of sexual abuse seriously while holding to innocent until proven guilty may be the way to go here. It's unlikely that someone outside the police or another neutral group would have any meaningful contact with both groups, so if (for example) a person I knew was claiming to have been sexually assaulted by some guy I could be supportive towards her while never repeating the name of the person she accused or otherwise identifying him. Likewise, if a guy I knew was accused of such a thing...that one's more difficult but I'd hold to phrasing it as "he was accused of" or "X was done to her, and she thinks he's the guy who did it" so that I can acknowledge that the girl is a victim of something while giving me plenty of openings to remind people that "innocent until proven guilty" is in our justice system for a reason.