Saying "we need equality for all genders" is like saying "all lives matter"

No ****

but thats not the problem

White guys aren't the ones getting shot by police

and men aren't the ones in fear of harrassment every day

Everyone should be equal

and by awknowledging that inequality and making note of it and trying to act on it we can actually do something

Women are not treated equally in our society let alone in gaming culture

but I digress

The fact that women are treated this way is attrocious and should be talked about and we should make steps to make them feel more comfortable coming to this community

because while a lot of you would like to say "well I don't know women who game anyway"

That doesn't mean there aren't women who game and by us saying things like that we discourage them even further

Missing it? No.

Pointing out that it can and will lead to people staring because human nature.

Ohgodhellyes.

Yes and thats on THEM not the person wearing the outfit. ITS THEIR responsibility to control their own actions

In regards to women who game: MAYBE if you don't make a big deal over the fact that they are women and that they game, you might see it more often.

Maybe.

Also. I suggest looking up the meaning of human nature. Yeah we can control our actions, some of us better than others.

I still think that in the greater scheme of things maybe a little dress sense (and again, both genders) can go a long way to removing that as an issue.

As I've said before. I don't wanna see it...

The dedication and diversity of tactics with which certain people are trying to quelsh this topic has disturbing implications as to why they don't want this topic discussed...

I see a lot of people talking about sjw culture and over sensitivity and yet so many people are so being offended by the terms used in the article that they are ignoring the actual substance of it. The idea that a victim should have to police their language to avoid hurting the feelings of those in the same demographic is the height of 'polical correctness gone mad!! 1!1'

Additionally the idea that people should just suck it up because other people have it worse is childish and will never lead to things getting better. We can't stop systematic **** in Africa but we can do a lot to make our gaming communities safer and more welcoming to everyone.

"Yes, you have a splinter, but other people in the world have cancer, so go home and suck it up."

fix'd

There is no reasoning with you, I can see. But for the sake of others reading this post...

Harassment is not a splinter compared to Africa's cancer.

Harassment is a loaded gun to your head. It is a question of safety and you either gamble and hope you'll be okay or you run and hide.

Street harassment is scary. It makes you feel unsafe in the streets.

Do you wonder why there are so many products made for women to push a single button and it calls the police? Because this happens. Harassment escalates quickly.

What do you qualify as harassment? Is catcalling as dangerous as female circumcision? As long as someone can comfortably say that there are bigger problems in the world then you'll never argue your way into being right. If you try to diminish suffering for your own goals then you are a **** (me). So many products are made because they sell incredibly fast and make people a ton of money due to fear mongering.

"Yes, you have a splinter, but other people in the world have cancer, so go home and suck it up."

fix'd

There is no reasoning with you, I can see. But for the sake of others reading this post...

Harassment is not a splinter compared to Africa's cancer.

Harassment is a loaded gun to your head. It is a question of safety and you either gamble and hope you'll be okay or you run and hide.

Street harassment is scary. It makes you feel unsafe in the streets.

Do you wonder why there are so many products made for women to push a single button and it calls the police? Because this happens. Harassment escalates quickly.

What do you qualify as harassment? Is catcalling as dangerous as female circumcision? As long as someone can comfortably say that there are bigger problems in the world then you'll never argue your way into being right. If you try to diminish suffering for your own goals then you are a **** (me). So many products are made because they sell incredibly fast and make people a ton of money due to fear mongering.

Something doesn't have to be as dangerous as something happening to someone else in order for it to be dangerous to the person it's happening to.

"Help, there's a man in my house with a knife!"

"Yeah, well, there's a guy across town with a gun, what's really more dangerous?"

To be fair guys, something can be an issue without it being war in Africa, Ebola, Cancer etc. Someone always has it worse.

Saying "we need equality for all genders" is like saying "all lives matter"

No ****

but thats not the problem

White guys aren't the ones getting shot by police

and men aren't the ones in fear of harrassment every day

Everyone should be equal

and by awknowledging that inequality and making note of it and trying to act on it we can actually do something

Women are not treated equally in our society let alone in gaming culture

but I digress

The fact that women are treated this way is attrocious and should be talked about and we should make steps to make them feel more comfortable coming to this community

because while a lot of you would like to say "well I don't know women who game anyway"

That doesn't mean there aren't women who game and by us saying things like that we discourage them even further

Missing it? No.

Pointing out that it can and will lead to people staring because human nature.

Ohgodhellyes.

Yes and thats on THEM not the person wearing the outfit. ITS THEIR responsibility to control their own actions

In regards to women who game: MAYBE if you don't make a big deal over the fact that they are women and that they game, you might see it more often.

Maybe.

Also. I suggest looking up the meaning of human nature. Yeah we can control our actions, some of us better than others.

I still think that in the greater scheme of things maybe a little dress sense (and again, both genders) can go a long way to removing that as an issue.

As I've said before. I don't wanna see it...

Congrats you argument on human nature is the exact argument used in some r ape cases good on you

has some messed up attitudes to women. I don't believe it's specific or inherent to gaming but to all male dominated western society. That's what needs addressing.Yeah not like women in the middle east and Africa have it a 1000 times worse, girls of 12 are being forced to marry men five times older and dying to childbirth their bodies Arnt ready to withstand, they are beaten and raped with little hope of ever escaping.

But yeah someone wolf whistling or staring is clearly way worse than that...

You must be really sheltered if you think it's women in the west getting the short end of the stick.

"Someone has it worse" is not a valid argument against real problems. Just because it's worse somewhere else doesn't mean women in the west should suck up what happens to them.

Perspectives a wondrous thing, some places on this planet really do have a **** culture the west isn't one of them but when 3rd wave feminists bang on about it they diminish the real suffering of millions.

Thing is tumblr does not represent women studies show 4/5 women when asked will reject the term feminist because they don't want people to think they hate men.

Absorb that for a moment third wave feminism has in three short years ruined decades of hard work advancing women's rights to the point 80% of women reject the very movement formed to help them.

And that's because third wavers are overly sensitive and incapable of rational discourse, delighting in painting themselves as victims.

The sound of your sweeping generalizations is loud enough to hurt my head.

Let's forget that women in west are trafficked EVERY DAY into sex slavery. Let's forget that they are brutalized. That they are told from the time they are children that their bodies are dirty and that they exist to please a man.

Let's forget all of that and write me off as a third wave feminist. That's fine.

I can see that there is -no reasoning- with you. I won't even attempt to. Because you have a clearly redpill attitude that causes you to place a label and thinks that explains it away.

The fact is, we may not have a large amount of 12 year olds forced into marriage with 50 year old men here... but don't pretend there isn't a market for videos like that here. How do you think they get those girls? It's a modern form of slavery - sex trafficking is real. It happens here all the time.

Wow, that's some pretty awful things that have happened to that lady. She needs to be taken seriously and there needs to be justice.

As a husband of a gaming wife, with three daughters who love tabletop gaming, it certainly makes me think that all of our gaming events will continue to remain in the safety of our own home. I've considered looking into local gaming events, and had the novel idea of bringing my 10 year daughter with me - not a chance now.

studies show 4/5 women when asked will reject the term feminist because they don't want people to think they hate men.

What studies are these, out of interest?

Saying "we need equality for all genders" is like saying "all lives matter"

No ****

but thats not the problem

White guys aren't the ones getting shot by police

and men aren't the ones in fear of harrassment every day

Everyone should be equal

and by awknowledging that inequality and making note of it and trying to act on it we can actually do something

Women are not treated equally in our society let alone in gaming culture

but I digress

The fact that women are treated this way is attrocious and should be talked about and we should make steps to make them feel more comfortable coming to this community

because while a lot of you would like to say "well I don't know women who game anyway"

That doesn't mean there aren't women who game and by us saying things like that we discourage them even further

Missing it? No.

Pointing out that it can and will lead to people staring because human nature.

Ohgodhellyes.

Yes and thats on THEM not the person wearing the outfit. ITS THEIR responsibility to control their own actions

In regards to women who game: MAYBE if you don't make a big deal over the fact that they are women and that they game, you might see it more often.

Maybe.

Also. I suggest looking up the meaning of human nature. Yeah we can control our actions, some of us better than others.

I still think that in the greater scheme of things maybe a little dress sense (and again, both genders) can go a long way to removing that as an issue.

As I've said before. I don't wanna see it...

Congrats you argument on human nature is the exact argument used in some r ape cases good on you

And now for a round of name that fallacy.

One of these things is not like the other. One is staring, the other is sexual assault.

One is legal.

One is not

One is a human hardcoded reaction.

One is sexual assault.

The important thing to remember is you lose nothing from believing a victim.

There's obviously a lot of inappropriate stuff that goes on that I'm not exposed to and I agree with a lot of what you've written but I think that bit I've quoted sounds great as a bumper sticker or t-shirt slogan but can be dangerous if carried too far in practice. For a high profile example of this look at the Duke Lacrosse case.

The article that was linked goes far beyond unwanted attention or unwelcoming and antisocial behavior. She describes being drugged and raped by a friend. There's a lot of unacceptable crap that the author describes but the lack of police response to that one truly shocked me.

The term SJW is among those that should just die out from online discussion.

Its almost as bad as German Facebook where our "new right" (neonazis in suits if you ask me) counters any valid argument they can't answer by calling people who bring them up "Gutmenschen". Thats a term that the historical nazis used to discredit their opponents.

Not saying SJW is used that way here, but in my opinion the term alone weakens how your position looks and if you want to actually convince people with your arguments you should refrain from using it.

On the topic of staring and sexual harrasment - no one who argued for not staring sometimes being difficult because of basic biological coding (which is not meant as an excuse, it still isn't okay) connected that to verbal or physical sexual harrasment, which is not only not acceptable, but also inexcusable.

What do you qualify as harassment? Is catcalling as dangerous as female circumcision? As long as someone can comfortably say that there are bigger problems in the world then you'll never argue your way into being right. If you try to diminish suffering for your own goals then you are a **** (me). So many products are made because they sell incredibly fast and make people a ton of money due to fear mongering.

Harassment:

A man following me to my car telling me he was going to show me how a good daddy is

A man calling my boss saying he wanted a new account rep because he didn't trust a "little girl" in a technical field, despite the fact I'm certified for my field

A man telling me I'm a b*tch because I told him I wasn't interested, and then following me to my car crying about how I "must think you're so hot! you're nothing! You're disgusting"

A group of men laughing at me and saying, "Who's your daddy? You need one?"

A man saying, "Hey snow bunny, let me ski down your slopes.." (I was in Florida, not sure where that came from)

Is it dangerous as someone taking a knife to my crotch? Probably not. But it is very dangerous to my overall safety, because those men think they were entitled to something from me because I am a woman. And all it takes is ONE unhinged man with that thought process to end my life.

Saying "we need equality for all genders" is like saying "all lives matter"

No ****

but thats not the problem

White guys aren't the ones getting shot by police

and men aren't the ones in fear of harrassment every day

Everyone should be equal

and by awknowledging that inequality and making note of it and trying to act on it we can actually do something

Women are not treated equally in our society let alone in gaming culture

but I digress

The fact that women are treated this way is attrocious and should be talked about and we should make steps to make them feel more comfortable coming to this community

because while a lot of you would like to say "well I don't know women who game anyway"

That doesn't mean there aren't women who game and by us saying things like that we discourage them even further

Missing it? No.

Pointing out that it can and will lead to people staring because human nature.

Ohgodhellyes.

Yes and thats on THEM not the person wearing the outfit. ITS THEIR responsibility to control their own actions

What a load of bollocks.. This **** happens to every one, Saying that it isn't happening to white males is the Most Raciest Thing That Could Come Out OF Your Mouth. No one is exempt from people like you. This is Not the place for this BS... Please People Don't fuel this burning crap.

The important thing to remember is you lose nothing from believing a victim.

There's obviously a lot of inappropriate stuff that goes on that I'm not exposed to and I agree with a lot of what you've written but I think that bit I've quoted sounds great as a bumper sticker or t-shirt slogan but can be dangerous if carried too far in practice. For a high profile example of this look at the Duke Lacrosse case.

The article that was linked goes far beyond unwanted attention or unwelcoming and antisocial behavior. She describes being drugged and raped by a friend. There's a lot of unacceptable crap that the author describes but the lack of police response to that one truly shocked me.

I should asterisk that and say there is nothing to lose with the general public* believing a victim. Law and media needs to do the due diligence, but you lose nothing when a friend tells you she's been assaulted and you believe her. That's my whole point. There is a duty for the law and media to fact check before they publish and punish.

But when I shared stories of my assault, I wasn't naming names. I didn't ask anyone to ruin a reputation. I was asking for support. A lot of people in this thread seem to have the attitude that no victim gets their support unless they come forward with evidence fit for a trial when they ask for it.

Saying "we need equality for all genders" is like saying "all lives matter"

No ****

but thats not the problem

White guys aren't the ones getting shot by police

and men aren't the ones in fear of harrassment every day

Everyone should be equal

and by awknowledging that inequality and making note of it and trying to act on it we can actually do something

Women are not treated equally in our society let alone in gaming culture

but I digress

The fact that women are treated this way is attrocious and should be talked about and we should make steps to make them feel more comfortable coming to this community

because while a lot of you would like to say "well I don't know women who game anyway"

That doesn't mean there aren't women who game and by us saying things like that we discourage them even further

Missing it? No.

Pointing out that it can and will lead to people staring because human nature.

Ohgodhellyes.

Yes and thats on THEM not the person wearing the outfit. ITS THEIR responsibility to control their own actions

In regards to women who game: MAYBE if you don't make a big deal over the fact that they are women and that they game, you might see it more often.

Maybe.

Also. I suggest looking up the meaning of human nature. Yeah we can control our actions, some of us better than others.

I still think that in the greater scheme of things maybe a little dress sense (and again, both genders) can go a long way to removing that as an issue.

As I've said before. I don't wanna see it...

Congrats you argument on human nature is the exact argument used in some r ape cases good on you

And now for a round of name that fallacy.

One of these things is not like the other. One is staring, the other is sexual assault.

One is legal.

One is not

One is a human hardcoded reaction.

One is sexual assault.

Well you're saying that it is the person's responsibility to discourage such behavior toward them

so the real question is

Where is the line that you draw in this case on when it is the other person's responsibility

"Sexual harassment may include ***LEERING***, pressure for dates, pressing or rubbing against a person, obscene phone calls, bra snapping, wolf-whistles, lip-smacking, indecent exposure, sexual discrimination, displaying explicit materials, sexist jokes, unwanted grabbing, comments about person's body, soliciting sexual services."

The term SJW is among those that should just die out from online discussion.

Its almost as bad as German Facebook where our "new right" (neonazis in suits if you ask me) counters any valid argument they can't answer by calling people who bring them up "Gutmenschen". Thats a term that the nazis used to discredit their opponents.

Not saying SJW is used that way here, but in my opinion the term alone weakens how your position looks and if you want to actually convince people with your arguments you should refrain from using it.

On the topic of staring and sexual harrasment - no one who argued for not staring sometimes being difficult because of basic biological coding (which is not meant as an excuse, it still isn't okay) connected that to verbal or physical sexual harrasment, which is not only not acceptable, but also inexcusable.

Yes, I was strictly on the subject of Staring/creeping/ogling etc.

Anything past that point goes into black and white territory for me too. I honestly can't see why it would not for everybody.

For me SJW is a descriptor. See white knight.

studies show 4/5 women when asked will reject the term feminist because they don't want people to think they hate men.

What studies are these, out of interest?

And maybe they don't want people to think they hate men because men are the ones who have turned "feminist" into a dirty word.

There are a couple of reasons to believe sexual harassment and sexism prevent diversity at gaming events. The testimonies like that given by HurricaneMaanen is of course important. Also, there is clear evidence of harassment at events like comic/fantasy/sf conventions and atheist meetings. This gives cause to think that it can probably happen at gaming events, too.

The question about whether or not we want more diversity at gaming events is irrelevant here; sure, some hobbies are not very popular among girls and women, but that means nothing for how safe they should be when they do happen to like them.

The argument that there is worse sexual violence elsewhere in the world is extremely fallacious.

Saying "we need equality for all genders" is like saying "all lives matter"

No ****

but thats not the problem

White guys aren't the ones getting shot by police

and men aren't the ones in fear of harrassment every day

Everyone should be equal

and by awknowledging that inequality and making note of it and trying to act on it we can actually do something

Women are not treated equally in our society let alone in gaming culture

but I digress

The fact that women are treated this way is attrocious and should be talked about and we should make steps to make them feel more comfortable coming to this community

because while a lot of you would like to say "well I don't know women who game anyway"

That doesn't mean there aren't women who game and by us saying things like that we discourage them even further

Missing it? No.

Pointing out that it can and will lead to people staring because human nature.

Ohgodhellyes.

Yes and thats on THEM not the person wearing the outfit. ITS THEIR responsibility to control their own actions

In regards to women who game: MAYBE if you don't make a big deal over the fact that they are women and that they game, you might see it more often.

Maybe.

Also. I suggest looking up the meaning of human nature. Yeah we can control our actions, some of us better than others.

I still think that in the greater scheme of things maybe a little dress sense (and again, both genders) can go a long way to removing that as an issue.

As I've said before. I don't wanna see it...

Congrats you argument on human nature is the exact argument used in some r ape cases good on you

And now for a round of name that fallacy.

One of these things is not like the other. One is staring, the other is sexual assault.

One is legal.

One is not

One is a human hardcoded reaction.

One is sexual assault.

Well you're saying that it is the person's responsibility to discourage such behavior toward them I'M SAYING IT'S BOTH SIDES RESPONSIBILITY, JESUS HOW HARD IS THIS I DON'T EVEN. OBEYING SOCIAL CONVENTIONS IS ALL THAT I AM SUGGESTING.

so the real question is

Where is the line that you draw in this case on when it is the other person's responsibility Already discussed.

"Sexual harassment may include ***LEERING***, pressure for dates, pressing or rubbing against a person, obscene phone calls, bra snapping, wolf-whistles, lip-smacking, indecent exposure, sexual discrimination, displaying explicit materials, sexist jokes, unwanted grabbing, comments about person's body, soliciting sexual services."

... I'm going to recommend for the sake of preserving the integrity of this conversation that we stop engaging with Hobojebus and McFoy and possibly report them. They are not participating in this conversation they are trolling it with blatent logical fallacies and misdirection towards barely related hotbutton topics in an attempt to get this thread locked and end the discussion.

Saying "we need equality for all genders" is like saying "all lives matter"

No ****

but thats not the problem

White guys aren't the ones getting shot by police

and men aren't the ones in fear of harrassment every day

Everyone should be equal

and by awknowledging that inequality and making note of it and trying to act on it we can actually do something

Women are not treated equally in our society let alone in gaming culture

but I digress

The fact that women are treated this way is attrocious and should be talked about and we should make steps to make them feel more comfortable coming to this community

because while a lot of you would like to say "well I don't know women who game anyway"

That doesn't mean there aren't women who game and by us saying things like that we discourage them even further

Missing it? No.

Pointing out that it can and will lead to people staring because human nature.

Ohgodhellyes.

Yes and thats on THEM not the person wearing the outfit. ITS THEIR responsibility to control their own actions

In regards to women who game: MAYBE if you don't make a big deal over the fact that they are women and that they game, you might see it more often.

Maybe.

Also. I suggest looking up the meaning of human nature. Yeah we can control our actions, some of us better than others.

I still think that in the greater scheme of things maybe a little dress sense (and again, both genders) can go a long way to removing that as an issue.

As I've said before. I don't wanna see it...

Congrats you argument on human nature is the exact argument used in some r ape cases good on you

And now for a round of name that fallacy.

One of these things is not like the other. One is staring, the other is sexual assault.

One is legal.

One is not

One is a human hardcoded reaction.

One is sexual assault.

Well you're saying that it is the person's responsibility to discourage such behavior toward them I'M SAYING IT'S BOTH SIDES RESPONSIBILITY, JESUS HOW HARD IS THIS I DON'T EVEN. OBEYING SOCIAL CONVENTIONS IS ALL THAT I AM SUGGESTING.

so the real question is

Where is the line that you draw in this case on when it is the other person's responsibility Already discussed.

"Sexual harassment may include ***LEERING***, pressure for dates, pressing or rubbing against a person, obscene phone calls, bra snapping, wolf-whistles, lip-smacking, indecent exposure, sexual discrimination, displaying explicit materials, sexist jokes, unwanted grabbing, comments about person's body, soliciting sexual services."

Isn't it odd that sexual harrasment (and further) is the only crime where the victim recieves as much blame as the perpetrator?

Would someone being shot be their fault?

Would being robbed?

why is it the person's responsibility to not be harrassed?

Thank you ladies and gentlemen... I think we have gone as far toward the goal of explaining our cases in good and bad light.

Let's not get into name calling or character assasination... that benefits no one.

Obviously it seems that there are a few issues, from the small ones that seem like jokes to the huge ones that place someone's life in danger.

As a community that believes in Fly Casual, what can we personally do to make things better in our environment?

Some things are obvious, but what else needs to happen so that we are more inclusive in our dealings with fellow people?

How can we become the example for gaming culture and not be just a comparison statistic that "we aren't that bad" while making no change?

I don't know that we individually have answers, but let's take this thread back into a positive direction, please...

has some messed up attitudes to women. I don't believe it's specific or inherent to gaming but to all male dominated western society. That's what needs addressing.Yeah not like women in the middle east and Africa have it a 1000 times worse, girls of 12 are being forced to marry men five times older and dying to childbirth their bodies Arnt ready to withstand, they are beaten and raped with little hope of ever escaping.

But yeah someone wolf whistling or staring is clearly way worse than that...

You must be really sheltered if you think it's women in the west getting the short end of the stick.

"Someone has it worse" is not a valid argument against real problems. Just because it's worse somewhere else doesn't mean women in the west should suck up what happens to them.

Perspectives a wondrous thing, some places on this planet really do have a **** culture the west isn't one of them but when 3rd wave feminists bang on about it they diminish the real suffering of millions.

Thing is tumblr does not represent women studies show 4/5 women when asked will reject the term feminist because they don't want people to think they hate men.

Absorb that for a moment third wave feminism has in three short years ruined decades of hard work advancing women's rights to the point 80% of women reject the very movement formed to help them.

And that's because third wavers are overly sensitive and incapable of rational discourse, delighting in painting themselves as victims.

The sound of your sweeping generalizations is loud enough to hurt my head.

Let's forget that women in west are trafficked EVERY DAY into sex slavery. Let's forget that they are brutalized. That they are told from the time they are children that their bodies are dirty and that they exist to please a man.

Let's forget all of that and write me off as a third wave feminist. That's fine.

I can see that there is -no reasoning- with you. I won't even attempt to. Because you have a clearly redpill attitude that causes you to place a label and thinks that explains it away.

The fact is, we may not have a large amount of 12 year olds forced into marriage with 50 year old men here... but don't pretend there isn't a market for videos like that here. How do you think they get those girls? It's a modern form of slavery - sex trafficking is real. It happens here all the time.

But here's the massive difference we don't accept it as part of our culture, the police don't turn a blind eye to sex trafficking or paedophilia do they in fact they actively investigate and persecute people that perform such repulsive acts.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/1474/islamophobimania_british_police_fail_to_investigate_muslim_child_sex_gang_for_fear_of_being_called_racist

Except of course when sjw's accuse them of being racist, me I'm angry the police were such cowards but I'm more angry they got put in that position in the first place.

If **** culture existed in the west no man or woman would ever go to jail but as there clearly are people in jail for that crime it's clearly not acceptable to society.

And that pain is logic and reason desperately trying to get in.