It's probably because we are getting away from the really uncomfortable issues that are not appropriate to discuss in this forum, you know, sexual assault and consent etc. In which case - yes, no is no is pretty **** obvious (or at least it should be).

This thread should now be about breakfast and Gunboats.

Hi.

I've been going back and forth on if I wanted to weigh in on this and I've decided I do.

I'm a 25 year old female TO at my local game store. I was a TO/Judge/Marshall/whatever a store championship that created a 14+ page thread here with another woman. I will also be TOing/Marshalling at the regionals my store is hosting (so if you're coming to the sunshine state you'll get to see my smiling face bright and early for registration).

I can't help but laugh as I read this thread, because it's proving something I've said to my fiancé (a regular poster here and the person who runs our local x-wing league) many times - men respect other men more than they respect women.

I've been in gaming for a while. I'm actually the one who begged my fiancé to start a DnD group. Sure, I joined x-wing to spend more time with him, but also because it's fun. Here's some things I've noticed.

- Since being engaged I don't get the sexual harassment I used to get. I used to be told that I was nothing but a hole, that my opinion didn't matter and I needed to "get in the kitchen". I used to no be able to tell someone 'no' without them going on about how "oh you gamer girls are all alike, you don't want to talk to anyone you're just here to be told you look good. Well I'm not going to do that, you're average at best" and other hurt nonsense. Since I got a ring on my finger, guys don't do that kind of stuff. Why? Because they RESPECT MY FIANCE MORE THAN THEY RESPECT ME. My no doesn't mean anything, but the idea that they could be encroaching on another man's "territory" does, so they back off.

- The most obvious way I've been treated like **** happens daily. It comes from players holding up ships and saying, "oh yeah? Then what's this?" It comes from my fellow TO getting asked if she "even plays x-wing". It comes from people looking to my fiancé or another man for confirmation of what I say because they don't trust that I know the rules. Judgments are passed about me because of what's between my legs that would never be considered if I had a beard. Like a spectator to a tournament yelling at me, calling me "hysterical" (which, if you look up the roots of the word is gendered and, for the situation, completely inappropriate).

The important thing to remember is you lose nothing from believing a victim. And I can believe what she said, because they have happened to me.

Women are PEOPLE. We are not there to give you something pretty to look at. Treat us like people, and don't push yourself onto a woman who tells you no. I am in a male dominated field, and I have had customers call me a "little girl" at work. It is not just gaming, it is EVERYWHERE.

But in the gaming community the men have a reputation for casual sexism because of things like gamergate, because so many women feel like they walk into a game store and have to be on guard.

At gencon last year, the Doubleclicks played at the Concert Against Humanity. And they played a song that really spoke to me, because they introduced it and said, "Hey you guys need to listen to this, because it can change a lot of things." (paraphrase)

I'll post it now, because ultimately, my point is this. I DO NOT because most gamers are rapists or prone to sexual assault. But I do think they are prone to not letting me in their world if I don't know who illustrated that issue of spiderman. Or who originally piloted that ship in the expanded universe. That's the type of sexism I've experienced.

Your mileage may vary, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Rjy5yW1gQ

Wow. So much of this is pretty much what I was going go write. Not because I'm a woman (which I'm not) but because so many of these behaviours are things I've witnessed. I'll be honest; I've never witnessed this sort of behaviour in a gaming store or tournament but so many times in our wider society.

"It is not just gaming, it is EVERYWHERE."

So very true. These are examples of what is wrong with our society as a whole and what is wrong with our society will drip feed into all sub cultures.

"My no doesn't mean anything, but the idea that they could be encroaching on another man's "territory" does, so they back off."

"Women are PEOPLE. We are not there to give you something pretty to look at. Treat us like people, and don't push yourself onto a woman who tells you no."

So much this. I used to be engaged to a girl who was a former stripper. She was very attractive but we'd been friends for years before we got together; I knew her as a person not as an object (which was very novel to her). We BOTH used to get harassed on a regular basis. I'm a small guy; I look about 21 and I'm 34. So many guys would act like cave men and actually threaten me as if beating the tar out of me would allow them to have some right to my perceived "property" I.E. Kayleigh. It was as if they thought they could just carry her off to their cave after assaulting her "owner". It's for this reason we spent more weekends in alone than out at pubs or even restaurants. Even walking down the street on a Friday or Saturday night could be difficult or dangerous for us. There were incidents where guys would approach her and then apologise to me as if they had encroached on my "territory" after she'd say leave me alone, I'm with him.

With the same girl we had incidents of people driving past and shouting sexually aggressive comments like "Give us blowj*b!" and thinking that this was normal. It actually really started to get to both of us and I think was one of the reasons our relationship broke down. The socially acceptable idea that she was an object really was hard for us both to deal with. I mean how many peoples "how did you meet?" stories begin with "well, I was asked for oral sex by a guy in a van and we just went from there, really." It's kind of insane to me that our society as a whole (not any particular subculture) has this idea that this is OK.

Which I guess is my main point; this behaviour is part of our society as a whole. Every sub-culture will contain elements of this until it is removed from our society as a whole. The reason we see people who think gamers are bad is because they have spent their time in these social situations. Kayleigh used to hate builders, not because she knew any personally, but because it was sites of male dominated construction crews that would all stop work to wolf whistle and throw sexual comments at her. That was her PERCEPTION & WINDOW ON THE WORLD for builders. Same as the article linked is from someone who's main interaction with this behaviour has been at Cons and gaming stores. Her perception is skewed in the same way my ex GF's was. Not all builders are d**ks and not all gamers are but when someone only ever see's this behaviour from these sub groups; they form an opinion that it's clearly these subgroups to blame as opposed to society as a whole. That's aimed at the linked article in the OP a opposed to the quoted post here.

The most obvious way I've been treated like **** happens daily. It comes from players holding up ships and saying, "oh yeah? Then what's this?" It comes from my fellow TO getting asked if she "even plays x-wing".

I don't wish to diminish what you say here but this is also a thing that happens everywhere. I agree that these incidences have probably had a fair degree of sexist intention or prejudice, however, this sort of "elitism" happens to all sexes and in many sub groups. Honestly; I think most of this sort of behaviour is centre around peoples own insecurity. People like to know where they stand even if its at the bottom of the pecking order. I used to get similar treatment all the time when I used to build skateparks. I was in my early 30's and had been skateboarding for 15 years. I knew my stuff buy the locals would always try to "out elite" me and throw irrelevant questions at me in order to diminish my credibility. I don't need to know who drew Jason Jesse's 1983 pro graphic in order to know how to build a bowl in much the same way you have no need to know who drew what in spidey in order to TO effectively. I do, however, totally agree that as a female you will probably be subjected to a lot more of this than guys. In a male dominated group a female is seen as more of a threat than other guys to their social standing in the pecking order. The old saying about "getting beaten by a girl" isn't just about games or sports. Men will hate to have their social standing reduced due to female worse than by another guy, even amongst a group of sweaty neckbeards.

"The important thing to remember is you lose nothing from believing a victim. And I can believe what she said, because they have happened to me."

I so much agree with this too. In some of my previous relationships girls have talked to me about things guys have done to them in the past and I have no reason to ever disbelieve them. Just because I'm not a weird sex pest doesn't mean they don't exist. I myself had a very bad experience when I was younger and no-one believed me so it's very easy for me to understand when women often say they never pursue things as they will be dismissed so easily. Don't get me wrong; there are some mental cases who do make up some really messed up accusations just for attention or control but I highly doubt any of that article falls into that category. These are things women have always said to me happen in all walks of life. Another Ex-GF of mine told me about an incident where she was drugged and worse but had no proof about anything. It's really not a huge step to think this happened to the woman in the article, it's just most people who have this sort of trauma don't want to shout about it.

Back to the main OP; the article linked uses very incendiary language and is skewed in where the blame is apportioned (I addressed that earlier in the comment) but that by no means should imply anything she said should be dismissed as a "perfect storm" (sounds very far from perfect to me!) or clickbait or attention seeking. Rants, although lacking in objectiveness by nature, are often spurred on by emotion as opposed to attention seeking. I honestly think women are bullied so much by men in all walks of life that they can be very socially scarred by any male dominated group or activity. Not just gaming. Articles like the linked one do unnecessary vilify a group of people but that doesn't mean the people who perpetrate these acts don't fall into this group.

Specifically all the local gamers I know; I can't think of anyone who would act in these ways. Most of the locals are family men and married. I'm one of the few weirdo's because I'm now 34 and single with no kids! Not that anyone thinks of me that way, I'm just one of the few that are still single with no family. I really don't think anyone in our circles would promote, take part in or even tolerate most of these behaviours.

TL;DR - our society has some messed up attitudes to women. I don't believe it's specific or inherent to gaming but to all male dominated western society. That's what needs addressing.

Yeah not like women in the middle east and Africa have it a 1000 times worse, girls of 12 are being forced to marry men five times older and dying to childbirth their bodies Arnt ready to withstand, they are beaten and raped with little hope of ever escaping.

But yeah someone wolf whistling or staring is clearly way worse than that...

You must be really sheltered if you think it's women in the west getting the short end of the stick.

I do hope that we can, but for now I am going to teach my daughter about situations that can be harmful to her.

My ex brother in law had some woman grabbing him in a taxi and he had to throw her out. The problem here is that he was lucky and had the strength to do it. It should never come down to that in any situation. I know kind of weird, but it sometimes (not often) can happen the other way as well.

Oh absolutely can happen the other way. My store has had to pull girls aside and say, "Honey, quit. Quit shoving your body in people's faces. It's not okay, and no one is comfortable with it."

It happens both ways. The problem is the majority of time when its woman on man the man's feelings get minimized because he should enjoy it - he shouldn't.

Assault is assault. Harassment is harassment. Regardless of genders.

has some messed up attitudes to women. I don't believe it's specific or inherent to gaming but to all male dominated western society. That's what needs addressing.Yeah not like women in the middle east and Africa have it a 1000 times worse, girls of 12 are being forced to marry men five times older and dying to childbirth their bodies Arnt ready to withstand, they are beaten and raped with little hope of ever escaping.

But yeah someone wolf whistling or staring is clearly way worse than that...

You must be really sheltered if you think it's women in the west getting the short end of the stick.

"Someone has it worse" is not a valid argument against real problems. Just because it's worse somewhere else doesn't mean women in the west should suck up what happens to them.

High heels used to be a masculine thing.

Social concepts of fashion, sexuality etc etc etc are in constant flux.

Exactly. They were invented to make it easier to grip stirrups for horseback riding. It further proves my point that there is no need for things to be separated by the sexes, and that things don't have to be a "well girls just don't like it". We're all the same gender in the womb until a certain point. That's why all of us have specks on our chest - some useful, some not.

Easy way to address the issues: If you see something, say something. It doesn't happen in my local group, because we have a handful of women. But it happens at Store Champs and what not where non-local players come. So just keep an eye on it, and if you see it happening call the person out on it. Straight up. "That's a super jerk thing to say man, why would you say that?"

It's easy to ignore a problem. I wish I could ignore it too. But I can't.

Exactly. if we as a community want to be awesome, we have to BE awesome. We can't just say it, think it, and repeat it to ourselves. If you see someone being a jerk, say something. If you are shy, non-confrontational, or afraid, then tell someone who can help. TOs, Store Employees, Convention Workers, and in extreme cases police officers. If they can't or won't do anything, then keep moving up the chain.

If you see another gamer casually slap someone (not just a woman) on the ass, call them on it. At worst it they will say "It's ok that is my Husband/wife/significant other" and you can just say "Ahh ok, sorry didn't know". If we want to maintain being an awesome community it takes work from the community as a whole. We get to set the standards for decorum, and acceptable behavior. Do not waste that gift.The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.~ Edmund Burke

This is great. Exactly. If you see someone treating someone -ANYONE- in your community as less than, make it known.

Yeah, but what if they're flying turrets though?

It all goes extremely well now that we have a TOILET SEAT PWT! Oh the irony!

Don't leave the JM5k up!

It's probably because we are getting away from the really uncomfortable issues that are not appropriate to discuss in this forum, you know, sexual assault and consent etc. In which case - yes, no is no is pretty **** obvious (or at least it should be).

This thread should now be about breakfast and Gunboat

You and your agendas.

"I should be able to do anything consequence free"

Which side of the argument is that?

In terms of anything past staring I'd agree with your point.

In terms of staring. Really hard not to. As pointed out, this is not just with showing skin, this is anything that significantly stands out.

Its not hard not to stare

And it's not their job to prevent you from doing so

But that isn't true, it is natural to stare for both men and women. We have evolved past the point of being instinct driven animals and it isn't apropriate, but getting past your biological coding can be a challenge.

Its still youre resposnibility to not do things that make others uncomfortable

Ah, GOOD. I'm glad you said that.

What if said outfits make me uncomfortable?

Fun fact: YOU CAN LOOK AWAY FROM THAT

BUT YOU LOOKING AT SOMEONE ELSE IS SOMETHING THEY CAN'T STOP

And this is why I hate SJWs/White knights.

The logic or lack thereof is truly painful. Like actually, physically causes ouchies.

Yes, I can look away, I can find something else to distract myself.

Why should I?

Would it not just be easier to wear something more reasonable out?

I'm willing to bet If I wore said mankini I'd catch you staring.

I'm not saying everyone should cover up in robes or whatever. Just dress appropriately for the occasion. As Wisconsen had noted - looking as to be ok. If you are uncomfortable with someone looking at you, you have to ask why that is. Now, if you are shy, sure. I get it. I tend to be quite modest myself. That's a good reason.

BECAUSE YOU'RE A HUMAN BEING AND WHAT YOU ARE DOING RIGHT NOW IS PERPETURATING

and i really didn't want to bring it in here

**** CULTURE!

Its actually easier for you to not be an ass and look away then it is for them to change

And dont pull the crap that its on them not to be uncomfortable

Because I'm sorry but YOU are doing something wrong and not THEM

If you were to go out in that outfit

I bet

I BET you would get a couple high fives and people moving on with their jolly old day

if a woman did it SHE WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO BE HARASSED

You are victimizing yourself rather than admit that the other person has rights

Is it bad that I heard that in a really high pitched screechy voice when I read it?

Dude. I get it, idealistic SJW.

It'd be really nice if the world worked like that. It doesn't. It's infinitely more complex, so please wake up, grow up, smell the roses etc.

Like I said, I'm very good at diverting my gaze as appropriate. Matching eyes etc. Probably better than you are.

What I question is the necessity of doing so. At a certain point, when is it more flattering to look at said outfit.

Some outfits just are not appropriate for some cultures/situation. They will grab attention. Maybe you'll understand it if i said they grab Agro? Need a tank nearby? Again, i'll use myself as an example, as it's fair to do so. Say I went to a mall, wearing said mankini. going full borat. Making people uncomfortable, and make no mistake with my pale ass it would. would that be ok?

No. Of course it would not. There are no ifs or buts. It's not apt. I would be in the wrong.

I would also be in the wrong if i walked around completely naked but for bodypaint and a few bits of strategic duct tape.

It's just not socially appropriate.

Also staring happens. it's hard coded.

Actually as long as the store you are walking into doesn't have a no shoes no **** no service sign

YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DO SO

I may personally Find Miley Cyrus walking around with nothing but pasties distasteful

But it's her right to do so and not be sexually harrassed for it

I do hope that we can, but for now I am going to teach my daughter about situations that can be harmful to her.

My ex brother in law had some woman grabbing him in a taxi and he had to throw her out. The problem here is that he was lucky and had the strength to do it. It should never come down to that in any situation. I know kind of weird, but it sometimes (not often) can happen the other way as well.

Oh absolutely can happen the other way. My store has had to pull girls aside and say, "Honey, quit. Quit shoving your body in people's faces. It's not okay, and no one is comfortable with it."

It happens both ways. The problem is the majority of time when its woman on man the man's feelings get minimized because he should enjoy it - he shouldn't.

Assault is assault. Harassment is harassment. Regardless of genders.

And this right here should be /thread

The object should be the removal of gender bias, not forcing it in a different direction.

"I should be able to do anything consequence free"

Which side of the argument is that?

In terms of anything past staring I'd agree with your point.

In terms of staring. Really hard not to. As pointed out, this is not just with showing skin, this is anything that significantly stands out.

Its not hard not to stare

And it's not their job to prevent you from doing so

But that isn't true, it is natural to stare for both men and women. We have evolved past the point of being instinct driven animals and it isn't apropriate, but getting past your biological coding can be a challenge.

Its still youre resposnibility to not do things that make others uncomfortable

Ah, GOOD. I'm glad you said that.

What if said outfits make me uncomfortable?

Fun fact: YOU CAN LOOK AWAY FROM THAT

BUT YOU LOOKING AT SOMEONE ELSE IS SOMETHING THEY CAN'T STOP

And this is why I hate SJWs/White knights.

The logic or lack thereof is truly painful. Like actually, physically causes ouchies.

Yes, I can look away, I can find something else to distract myself.

Why should I?

Would it not just be easier to wear something more reasonable out?

I'm willing to bet If I wore said mankini I'd catch you staring.

I'm not saying everyone should cover up in robes or whatever. Just dress appropriately for the occasion. As Wisconsen had noted - looking as to be ok. If you are uncomfortable with someone looking at you, you have to ask why that is. Now, if you are shy, sure. I get it. I tend to be quite modest myself. That's a good reason.

BECAUSE YOU'RE A HUMAN BEING AND WHAT YOU ARE DOING RIGHT NOW IS PERPETURATING

and i really didn't want to bring it in here

**** CULTURE!

Its actually easier for you to not be an ass and look away then it is for them to change

And dont pull the crap that its on them not to be uncomfortable

Because I'm sorry but YOU are doing something wrong and not THEM

If you were to go out in that outfit

I bet

I BET you would get a couple high fives and people moving on with their jolly old day

if a woman did it SHE WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO BE HARASSED

You are victimizing yourself rather than admit that the other person has rights

Is it bad that I heard that in a really high pitched screechy voice when I read it?

Dude. I get it, idealistic SJW.

It'd be really nice if the world worked like that. It doesn't. It's infinitely more complex, so please wake up, grow up, smell the roses etc.

Like I said, I'm very good at diverting my gaze as appropriate. Matching eyes etc. Probably better than you are.

What I question is the necessity of doing so. At a certain point, when is it more flattering to look at said outfit.

Some outfits just are not appropriate for some cultures/situation. They will grab attention. Maybe you'll understand it if i said they grab Agro? Need a tank nearby? Again, i'll use myself as an example, as it's fair to do so. Say I went to a mall, wearing said mankini. going full borat. Making people uncomfortable, and make no mistake with my pale ass it would. would that be ok?

No. Of course it would not. There are no ifs or buts. It's not apt. I would be in the wrong.

I would also be in the wrong if i walked around completely naked but for bodypaint and a few bits of strategic duct tape.

It's just not socially appropriate.

Also staring happens. it's hard coded.

Second of all. Oh my god. Do you really not see the difference? A man who goes "full borat" will get stared at. A woman who does the same runs the very real risk of being assaulted. Do you literally not see the difference? Do you not see how the fault is 100% on the party oogling/staring/assaulting? Requiring modesty for a persons "own protection" is absurd, misogynistic, and just plain wrong. Anyone can wear whatever they like (within the confines of the law), and they ARE NOT DOING IT FOR YOU. A person may want to feel fun/cute/attractive/sexy/whatever for their own edification, for their partner, for any reason whatsoever. They are not doing it for you. They are not a display for you to drool over.

Assuming the opposite is EXACTLY the problem.

Edited for clarity.

Yeah not like women in the middle east and Africa have it a 1000 times worse, girls of 12 are being forced to marry men five times older and dying to childbirth their bodies Arnt ready to withstand, they are beaten and raped with little hope of ever escaping.

But yeah someone wolf whistling or staring is clearly way worse than that...

You must be really sheltered if you think it's women in the west getting the short end of the stick.

"Yes, you have pneumonia, but other people in the world have cancer, so go home and suck it up."

"Yes, you have a splinter, but other people in the world have cancer, so go home and suck it up."

fix'd

The important thing to remember is you lose nothing from believing a victim.

This line in itself is exactly what caused so many issues in my life and forced me to change college twice. The supposed "victims" named me as the perp. Even after being cleared by the police because I had receipts proving I wasn't even in town when these attacks allegedly occurred. Just because a woman says it happened doesn't mean anyone should believe her without some evidence to corroborate her claims.

I'm sorry you've experienced awful people in gaming who have treated you badly. Forgive me, however, for viewing the claims from every woman with in these instances with more than a little skepticism. When the mere accusation of **** can destroy a life everyone should view claims by women with renewed rigor.

Removed all the quotations. Neatness.

First of all, yes, that's bad. At least you recognize that you don't understand appropriate conduct and ask for guidance.

Oh I most certainly do. I do however have to point out the logical fallacy's in the whole "not ok to stare" camp.

Second of all. Oh my god. Do you really not see the difference? A man who goes "full borat" will get stared at. A woman who does the same runs the very real risk of being assaulted. Do you literally not see the difference? Do you not see how the fault is 100% on the party not dressing "inappropriately"? Requiring modesty for a persons "own protection" is absurd, misogynistic, and just plain wrong. Anyone can wear whatever they like (within the confines of the law), and they ARE NOT DOING IT FOR YOU. A person may want to feel fun/cute/attractive/sexy/whatever for their own edification, for their partner, for any reason whatsoever. They are not doing it for you. They are not a display for you to drool over.

Nor am I. I suggest you look up Gender equality. It all works both ways.

Assuming the opposite is EXACTLY the problem.

For both sides.

Please note my extreme distaste for the whole white knight thing, as it's counter-productive. I personally think that a little class works well for everyone involved, hence my comments regarding social appropriateness. This isn't just the ladies, this is guys too.

"Yes, you have a splinter, but other people in the world have cancer, so go home and suck it up."

fix'd

There is no reasoning with you, I can see. But for the sake of others reading this post...

Harassment is not a splinter compared to Africa's cancer.

Harassment is a loaded gun to your head. It is a question of safety and you either gamble and hope you'll be okay or you run and hide.

Street harassment is scary. It makes you feel unsafe in the streets.

Do you wonder why there are so many products made for women to push a single button and it calls the police? Because this happens. Harassment escalates quickly.

Father Turin i didn't quote because it would be huge

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar

Removed all the quotations. Neatness.

First of all, yes, that's bad. At least you recognize that you don't understand appropriate conduct and ask for guidance.

Oh I most certainly do. I do however have to point out the logical fallacy's in the whole "not ok to stare" camp.

Second of all. Oh my god. Do you really not see the difference? A man who goes "full borat" will get stared at. A woman who does the same runs the very real risk of being assaulted. Do you literally not see the difference? Do you not see how the fault is 100% on the party not dressing "inappropriately"? Requiring modesty for a persons "own protection" is absurd, misogynistic, and just plain wrong. Anyone can wear whatever they like (within the confines of the law), and they ARE NOT DOING IT FOR YOU. A person may want to feel fun/cute/attractive/sexy/whatever for their own edification, for their partner, for any reason whatsoever. They are not doing it for you. They are not a display for you to drool over.

Nor am I. I suggest you look up Gender equality. It all works both ways.

Assuming the opposite is EXACTLY the problem.

For both sides.

Coming from the guy who began this argument arguing for realism over idealism

You are not awknowledging the very real problem women face

Women are sexually harrassed more than men for wearing the same outfits

And as I said earlier they shouldn't be

Everyone has the right to wear whatever the hell they want without needing to worry about being harrassed or assaulted

Again going back to the bikini outfit (which I fully intend to wear one day)

If i were to go out in that outfit
I would get some glances and shrugs and people ignoring me or giggling because they understand it as a joke outfit

if a WOMAN were to wear the same outfit

people would catcall, stare, and sexually harass her and see the outfit as sexy
and would feel justified in doing so

AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM

You seem to be missing the entire point that said outfit was inappropriate. Somehow.

You seem to be missing the entire point that said outfit was inappropriate. Somehow.

And you seem to be missing the entire point that that does not justify sexual harrassment or harrassment of any sort

Missing it? No.

Pointing out that it can and will lead to people staring because human nature.

Ohgodhellyes.

Oppression and suffering from it isn't a competition, it's not something you weigh and compare to see who hurts more. Oppression is oppression, in all its small, large, and invasive ways. All you can do as a good person is try your hardest not to partake in oppression and maybe try to act against it once and awhile.

My girlfriend is uncomfortable with the idea of going to a Magic tournament due to the male dominance, she thinks if she makes a mistake it does badly, they'll all put it on her gender and not her as a person. She doesn't want to carry that weight.

It's hard to say if they will too.

Xwing that I've known has at least 1 female player pre area, probably a lot more at home. You could try to shift this trend by actively engaging that gender. I know the new Star War movie and it's strong female characters engaged more women to enjoy Star Wars then previously.

But for a board game? Harder to do. I guess all we can do is invite the female gendered people in our lives to play Xwing, to encourage them to do their own builds, to not "mansplain" (the term for men explaining things with being asked to, happens a hell of a lot in the gaming world. I know I've done it) and to invite them to tournaments to beat nerds butts.

There was a girl who in my old local area would bring a bright pink Falcon to tournaments, then stomp the opponents that didn't take her seriously. It was wonderful.

Dude. I get it, idealistic SJW.

And you are out of the discussion. The moment you declare someone a SJW you stop talking to with him and instead discussing the topic with some vague concept which is mainly just in your head. Though it seems that you two talk past each other for a while already.

For reference again:

Call him rather an idealist or stupid or dogmatic or whatever. The SJW tag should be reserved for imaginary adversaries.

Hi.

I've been going back and forth on if I wanted to weigh in on this and I've decided I do.

I'm a 25 year old female TO at my local game store. I was a TO/Judge/Marshall/whatever a store championship that created a 14+ page thread here with another woman. I will also be TOing/Marshalling at the regionals my store is hosting (so if you're coming to the sunshine state you'll get to see my smiling face bright and early for registration).

I can't help but laugh as I read this thread, because it's proving something I've said to my fiancé (a regular poster here and the person who runs our local x-wing league) many times - men respect other men more than they respect women.

I've been in gaming for a while. I'm actually the one who begged my fiancé to start a DnD group. Sure, I joined x-wing to spend more time with him, but also because it's fun. Here's some things I've noticed.

- Since being engaged I don't get the sexual harassment I used to get. I used to be told that I was nothing but a hole, that my opinion didn't matter and I needed to "get in the kitchen". I used to no be able to tell someone 'no' without them going on about how "oh you gamer girls are all alike, you don't want to talk to anyone you're just here to be told you look good. Well I'm not going to do that, you're average at best" and other hurt nonsense. Since I got a ring on my finger, guys don't do that kind of stuff. Why? Because they RESPECT MY FIANCE MORE THAN THEY RESPECT ME. My no doesn't mean anything, but the idea that they could be encroaching on another man's "territory" does, so they back off.

- The most obvious way I've been treated like **** happens daily. It comes from players holding up ships and saying, "oh yeah? Then what's this?" It comes from my fellow TO getting asked if she "even plays x-wing". It comes from people looking to my fiancé or another man for confirmation of what I say because they don't trust that I know the rules. Judgments are passed about me because of what's between my legs that would never be considered if I had a beard. Like a spectator to a tournament yelling at me, calling me "hysterical" (which, if you look up the roots of the word is gendered and, for the situation, completely inappropriate).

The important thing to remember is you lose nothing from believing a victim. And I can believe what she said, because they have happened to me.

Women are PEOPLE. We are not there to give you something pretty to look at. Treat us like people, and don't push yourself onto a woman who tells you no. I am in a male dominated field, and I have had customers call me a "little girl" at work. It is not just gaming, it is EVERYWHERE.

But in the gaming community the men have a reputation for casual sexism because of things like gamergate, because so many women feel like they walk into a game store and have to be on guard.

At gencon last year, the Doubleclicks played at the Concert Against Humanity. And they played a song that really spoke to me, because they introduced it and said, "Hey you guys need to listen to this, because it can change a lot of things." (paraphrase)

I'll post it now, because ultimately, my point is this. I DO NOT because most gamers are rapists or prone to sexual assault. But I do think they are prone to not letting me in their world if I don't know who illustrated that issue of spiderman. Or who originally piloted that ship in the expanded universe. That's the type of sexism I've experienced.

Your mileage may vary, though.

Wow. So much of this is pretty much what I was going go write. Not because I'm a woman (which I'm not) but because so many of these behaviours are things I've witnessed. I'll be honest; I've never witnessed this sort of behaviour in a gaming store or tournament but so many times in our wider society.

"It is not just gaming, it is EVERYWHERE."

So very true. These are examples of what is wrong with our society as a whole and what is wrong with our society will drip feed into all sub cultures.

"My no doesn't mean anything, but the idea that they could be encroaching on another man's "territory" does, so they back off."

"Women are PEOPLE. We are not there to give you something pretty to look at. Treat us like people, and don't push yourself onto a woman who tells you no."

So much this. I used to be engaged to a girl who was a former stripper. She was very attractive but we'd been friends for years before we got together; I knew her as a person not as an object (which was very novel to her). We BOTH used to get harassed on a regular basis. I'm a small guy; I look about 21 and I'm 34. So many guys would act like cave men and actually threaten me as if beating the tar out of me would allow them to have some right to my perceived "property" I.E. Kayleigh. It was as if they thought they could just carry her off to their cave after assaulting her "owner". It's for this reason we spent more weekends in alone than out at pubs or even restaurants. Even walking down the street on a Friday or Saturday night could be difficult or dangerous for us. There were incidents where guys would approach her and then apologise to me as if they had encroached on my "territory" after she'd say leave me alone, I'm with him.

With the same girl we had incidents of people driving past and shouting sexually aggressive comments like "Give us blowj*b!" and thinking that this was normal. It actually really started to get to both of us and I think was one of the reasons our relationship broke down. The socially acceptable idea that she was an object really was hard for us both to deal with. I mean how many peoples "how did you meet?" stories begin with "well, I was asked for oral sex by a guy in a van and we just went from there, really." It's kind of insane to me that our society as a whole (not any particular subculture) has this idea that this is OK.

Which I guess is my main point; this behaviour is part of our society as a whole. Every sub-culture will contain elements of this until it is removed from our society as a whole. The reason we see people who think gamers are bad is because they have spent their time in these social situations. Kayleigh used to hate builders, not because she knew any personally, but because it was sites of male dominated construction crews that would all stop work to wolf whistle and throw sexual comments at her. That was her PERCEPTION & WINDOW ON THE WORLD for builders. Same as the article linked is from someone who's main interaction with this behaviour has been at Cons and gaming stores. Her perception is skewed in the same way my ex GF's was. Not all builders are d**ks and not all gamers are but when someone only ever see's this behaviour from these sub groups; they form an opinion that it's clearly these subgroups to blame as opposed to society as a whole. That's aimed at the linked article in the OP a opposed to the quoted post here.

The most obvious way I've been treated like **** happens daily. It comes from players holding up ships and saying, "oh yeah? Then what's this?" It comes from my fellow TO getting asked if she "even plays x-wing".

I don't wish to diminish what you say here but this is also a thing that happens everywhere. I agree that these incidences have probably had a fair degree of sexist intention or prejudice, however, this sort of "elitism" happens to all sexes and in many sub groups. Honestly; I think most of this sort of behaviour is centre around peoples own insecurity. People like to know where they stand even if its at the bottom of the pecking order. I used to get similar treatment all the time when I used to build skateparks. I was in my early 30's and had been skateboarding for 15 years. I knew my stuff buy the locals would always try to "out elite" me and throw irrelevant questions at me in order to diminish my credibility. I don't need to know who drew Jason Jesse's 1983 pro graphic in order to know how to build a bowl in much the same way you have no need to know who drew what in spidey in order to TO effectively. I do, however, totally agree that as a female you will probably be subjected to a lot more of this than guys. In a male dominated group a female is seen as more of a threat than other guys to their social standing in the pecking order. The old saying about "getting beaten by a girl" isn't just about games or sports. Men will hate to have their social standing reduced due to female worse than by another guy, even amongst a group of sweaty neckbeards.

"The important thing to remember is you lose nothing from believing a victim. And I can believe what she said, because they have happened to me."

I so much agree with this too. In some of my previous relationships girls have talked to me about things guys have done to them in the past and I have no reason to ever disbelieve them. Just because I'm not a weird sex pest doesn't mean they don't exist. I myself had a very bad experience when I was younger and no-one believed me so it's very easy for me to understand when women often say they never pursue things as they will be dismissed so easily. Don't get me wrong; there are some mental cases who do make up some really messed up accusations just for attention or control but I highly doubt any of that article falls into that category. These are things women have always said to me happen in all walks of life. Another Ex-GF of mine told me about an incident where she was drugged and worse but had no proof about anything. It's really not a huge step to think this happened to the woman in the article, it's just most people who have this sort of trauma don't want to shout about it.

Back to the main OP; the article linked uses very incendiary language and is skewed in where the blame is apportioned (I addressed that earlier in the comment) but that by no means should imply anything she said should be dismissed as a "perfect storm" (sounds very far from perfect to me!) or clickbait or attention seeking. Rants, although lacking in objectiveness by nature, are often spurred on by emotion as opposed to attention seeking. I honestly think women are bullied so much by men in all walks of life that they can be very socially scarred by any male dominated group or activity. Not just gaming. Articles like the linked one do unnecessary vilify a group of people but that doesn't mean the people who perpetrate these acts don't fall into this group.

Specifically all the local gamers I know; I can't think of anyone who would act in these ways. Most of the locals are family men and married. I'm one of the few weirdo's because I'm now 34 and single with no kids! Not that anyone thinks of me that way, I'm just one of the few that are still single with no family. I really don't think anyone in our circles would promote, take part in or even tolerate most of these behaviours.

TL;DR - our society has some messed up attitudes to women. I don't believe it's specific or inherent to gaming but to all male dominated western society. That's what needs addressing.

Yeah not like women in the middle east and Africa have it a 1000 times worse, girls of 12 are being forced to marry men five times older and dying to childbirth their bodies Arnt ready to withstand, they are beaten and raped with little hope of ever escaping.

But yeah someone wolf whistling or staring is clearly way worse than that...

You must be really sheltered if you think it's women in the west getting the short end of the stick.

Not exactly what I said. I have implied that they are in no way worse than forced marriages, gang **** in India etc. Just that our society does need to address some issues. It's pretty cold to dismiss the harassment of women over here as something that should be tolerated simply because they aren't being gang raped...

I really don't want to live in a society where either is seen as normal. Perhaps this just highlights what I mean?

"If you are ever the victim of a sexual assault, just close your eyes and think about all those poor Saudi women who can't drive. It'll make it seem not so bad."

Saying "we need equality for all genders" is like saying "all lives matter"
No ****

but thats not the problem

White guys aren't the ones getting shot by police

and men aren't the ones in fear of harrassment every day

Everyone should be equal

and by awknowledging that inequality and making note of it and trying to act on it we can actually do something

Women are not treated equally in our society let alone in gaming culture

but I digress

The fact that women are treated this way is attrocious and should be talked about and we should make steps to make them feel more comfortable coming to this community

because while a lot of you would like to say "well I don't know women who game anyway"

That doesn't mean there aren't women who game and by us saying things like that we discourage them even further

Missing it? No.

Pointing out that it can and will lead to people staring because human nature.

Ohgodhellyes.

Yes and thats on THEM not the person wearing the outfit. ITS THEIR responsibility to control their own actions

Oppression and suffering from it isn't a competition, it's not something you weigh and compare to see who hurts more. Oppression is oppression, in all its small, large, and invasive ways. All you can do as a good person is try your hardest not to partake in oppression and maybe try to act against it once and awhile.

My girlfriend is uncomfortable with the idea of going to a Magic tournament due to the male dominance, she thinks if she makes a mistake it does badly, they'll all put it on her gender and not her as a person. She doesn't want to carry that weight.

It's hard to say if they will too.

Xwing that I've known has at least 1 female player pre area, probably a lot more at home. You could try to shift this trend by actively engaging that gender. I know the new Star War movie and it's strong female characters engaged more women to enjoy Star Wars then previously.

But for a board game? Harder to do. I guess all we can do is invite the female gendered people in our lives to play Xwing, to encourage them to do their own builds, to not "mansplain" (the term for men explaining things with being asked to, happens a hell of a lot in the gaming world. I know I've done it) and to invite them to tournaments to beat nerds butts.

There was a girl who in my old local area would bring a bright pink Falcon to tournaments, then stomp the opponents that didn't take her seriously. It was wonderful.

This sums up what my wife feels that going to a competitive event would entail for her. She feels that she has to be better because she is a woman or she cannot even engage in the 'sport'. Everyone should have the right to win or lose without being put into a category. You are a person playing a really fun game with another person. Shake hands. Good game, win or lose. End of story.

has some messed up attitudes to women. I don't believe it's specific or inherent to gaming but to all male dominated western society. That's what needs addressing.Yeah not like women in the middle east and Africa have it a 1000 times worse, girls of 12 are being forced to marry men five times older and dying to childbirth their bodies Arnt ready to withstand, they are beaten and raped with little hope of ever escaping.

But yeah someone wolf whistling or staring is clearly way worse than that...

You must be really sheltered if you think it's women in the west getting the short end of the stick.

"Someone has it worse" is not a valid argument against real problems. Just because it's worse somewhere else doesn't mean women in the west should suck up what happens to them.

Perspectives a wondrous thing, some places on this planet really do have a **** culture the west isn't one of them but when 3rd wave feminists bang on about it they diminish the real suffering of millions.

Thing is tumblr does not represent women studies show 4/5 women when asked will reject the term feminist because they don't want people to think they hate men.

Absorb that for a moment third wave feminism has in three short years ruined decades of hard work advancing women's rights to the point 80% of women reject the very movement formed to help them.

And that's because third wavers are overly sensitive and incapable of rational discourse, delighting in painting themselves as victims.