I think here it is always wrong to go to far if the other party says NO. NO means NO.

Inviting someone to the bedroom and stuff starts happening is a bad judgment call. I know it's no excuse, but that is putting yourself in a bad situation from the start. The living room to watch movie, and stuff happens is a different type of situation. It's not implied from the start that anything should have happened at all. Inviting someone to your bedroom is sending a mixed type of message to the other party, but it is still up to one person to always respect the other persons wishes even in bad situations.

So I'm going to get on my soapbox here, because what you said makes me feel like I need to.

A person can be entirely undressed and say, "nevermind, I don't want to." If they get assaulted, it is 100% THE FAULT OF THE PERSON WHO ASSAULTED THEM.

When you revoke consent, you revoke it. It doesn't matter if you're in a bedroom or a dungeon. It is revoked.

This idea about mixed messages and bad judgment calls makes me sick.

What about the girl who lives with roommates and who's only private space to talk to someone is a bedroom? Is it okay she got assaulted, because she invited someone into her room?

I should never have to think, "this guy may assault me, better not invite him to my room!" NEVER. A bedroom assault is NO DIFFERENT than a living room assault. And the fact that you think it is makes me so, so sad.

completely agree, the only time you cannot withdraw consent is after the fact. Doesn't matter if you are in the middle of the act, no means no. That doesn't mean you need to like the person after, or ever speak to them again. but no is no.

Exactly.

And, so people are clear, since it seems like not everyone in here is aware:

Your girlfriend can say no

Your wife can say no

You can be "not done" and she can say I need to stop and if you do not THAT IS ASSAULT.

You are free to never speak to the person who revoked consent from you again. But if they said no, I'm done - that's it. It's over.

And men, you have the power to say no too.

I think here it is always wrong to go to far if the other party says NO. NO means NO.

Inviting someone to the bedroom and stuff starts happening is a bad judgment call. I know it's no excuse, but that is putting yourself in a bad situation from the start. The living room to watch movie, and stuff happens is a different type of situation. It's not implied from the start that anything should have happened at all. Inviting someone to your bedroom is sending a mixed type of message to the other party, but it is still up to one person to always respect the other persons wishes even in bad situations.

So I'm going to get on my soapbox here, because what you said makes me feel like I need to.

A person can be entirely undressed and say, "nevermind, I don't want to." If they get assaulted, it is 100% THE FAULT OF THE PERSON WHO ASSAULTED THEM.

When you revoke consent, you revoke it. It doesn't matter if you're in a bedroom or a dungeon. It is revoked.

This idea about mixed messages and bad judgment calls makes me sick.

What about the girl who lives with roommates and who's only private space to talk to someone is a bedroom? Is it okay she got assaulted, because she invited someone into her room?

I should never have to think, "this guy may assault me, better not invite him to my room!" NEVER. A bedroom assault is NO DIFFERENT than a living room assault. And the fact that you think it is makes me so, so sad.

I said No means NO.

In our culture bedroom is sending a mixed message.

The girl that lives in a bedroom is still no = no.

I agree no you should not have to think like that. I may have not expressed that as well as I could have.

"I should be able to do anything consequence free"

Which side of the argument is that?

In terms of anything past staring I'd agree with your point.

In terms of staring. Really hard not to. As pointed out, this is not just with showing skin, this is anything that significantly stands out.

Its not hard not to stare

And it's not their job to prevent you from doing so

But that isn't true, it is natural to stare for both men and women. We have evolved past the point of being instinct driven animals and it isn't apropriate, but getting past your biological coding can be a challenge.

Its still youre resposnibility to not do things that make others uncomfortable

Ah, GOOD. I'm glad you said that.

What if said outfits make me uncomfortable?

Fun fact: YOU CAN LOOK AWAY FROM THAT

BUT YOU LOOKING AT SOMEONE ELSE IS SOMETHING THEY CAN'T STOP

And this is why I hate SJWs/White knights.

The logic or lack thereof is truly painful. Like actually, physically causes ouchies.

Yes, I can look away, I can find something else to distract myself.

Why should I?

Would it not just be easier to wear something more reasonable out?

I'm willing to bet If I wore said mankini I'd catch you staring.

I'm not saying everyone should cover up in robes or whatever. Just dress appropriately for the occasion. As Wisconsen had noted - looking as to be ok. If you are uncomfortable with someone looking at you, you have to ask why that is. Now, if you are shy, sure. I get it. I tend to be quite modest myself. That's a good reason.

Fun fact: YOU CAN LOOK AWAY FROM THAT

BUT YOU LOOKING AT SOMEONE ELSE IS SOMETHING THEY CAN'T STOP

While you have a point, I think you are in this again to fundamental. Sure, he can look somewhere else, and so can everyone else, but if the outfit is making everyone uncomfortable than it might be the wrong outfit for the occasion. And if it is just him having a problem with it then it might be the wrong event for him. We have social norms and conventions, we don't run nude around for that reason, except when we do, etc …

Staring is still in general rude, but making everyone around you uncomfortable is as well.

Hey. The person responsible for assault is the person doing the assaulting. Always.

No matter what type of judgment you think the survivor of said assault has. It shouldn't even enter into it. "No," is not a mixed message, no matter what room it's said in.

QFT.

If you assault it's your fault. No one owes you anything because they invited you to their bedroom.

Fun fact: YOU CAN LOOK AWAY FROM THAT

BUT YOU LOOKING AT SOMEONE ELSE IS SOMETHING THEY CAN'T STOP

While you have a point, I think you are in this again to fundamental. Sure, he can look somewhere else, and so can everyone else, but if the outfit is making everyone uncomfortable than it might be the wrong outfit for the occasion. And if it is just him having a problem with it then it might be the wrong event for him. We have social norms and conventions, we don't run nude around for that reason, except when we do, etc …

Staring is still in general rude, but making everyone around you uncomfortable is as well.

Thanks, that's kinda the point I am trying to make (i'm out of likes now).

I think here it is always wrong to go to far if the other party says NO. NO means NO.

Inviting someone to the bedroom and stuff starts happening is a bad judgment call. I know it's no excuse, but that is putting yourself in a bad situation from the start. The living room to watch movie, and stuff happens is a different type of situation. It's not implied from the start that anything should have happened at all. Inviting someone to your bedroom is sending a mixed type of message to the other party, but it is still up to one person to always respect the other persons wishes even in bad situations.

So I'm going to get on my soapbox here, because what you said makes me feel like I need to.

A person can be entirely undressed and say, "nevermind, I don't want to." If they get assaulted, it is 100% THE FAULT OF THE PERSON WHO ASSAULTED THEM.

When you revoke consent, you revoke it. It doesn't matter if you're in a bedroom or a dungeon. It is revoked.

This idea about mixed messages and bad judgment calls makes me sick.

What about the girl who lives with roommates and who's only private space to talk to someone is a bedroom? Is it okay she got assaulted, because she invited someone into her room?

I should never have to think, "this guy may assault me, better not invite him to my room!" NEVER. A bedroom assault is NO DIFFERENT than a living room assault. And the fact that you think it is makes me so, so sad.

I said No means NO.

In our culture bedroom is sending a mixed message.

The girl that lives in a bedroom is still no = no.

I agree no you should not have to think like that. I may have not expressed that as well as I could have.

here's the thing, I got what you were saying.

You said no means no.... BUT. But if she invited him to her bedroom instead of the living room he was getting mixed messages, so it's a little bit her fault if he takes them to far.

No means no regardless of what room it is.

Regardless of the state of dress.

Regardless of alcohol intake.

Regardless. No is no.

Hey. The person responsible for assault is the person doing the assaulting. Always.

No matter what type of judgment you think the survivor of said assault has. It shouldn't even enter into it. "No," is not a mixed message, no matter what room it's said in.

QFT.

If you assault it's your fault. No one owes you anything because they invited you to their bedroom.

And since we're talking about this issue in regard to how it affects gaming communities, this also extends to hotel rooms at cons.

The most amusing part of this has been the steady decline of people viewing this since it turned into a consent argument.

In regards to alcohol intake, yes can mean no as well depending on where you are.

The most amusing part of this has been the steady decline of people viewing this since it turned into a consent argument.

Yeaah I don't want to go there.

1) it's costing rolling stone $25 million in damages and been a serious blow to their reputation and credibility, Don't thing trusting people cant turn bad on you it can.

bull straw man. Thrusting someone and publishing a story are to complete different things. If you believe that you can publish based on thrust alone than you are delusional about journalistic work.

Y'know that's exactly what rolling stone did right that's why they are being sued because they published a story about gang **** with zero evidence.

The reporter took the word of the "victim" and painted an entire fraternity as serial rapists in a large publication with no proof.

Those guys got death threats and had property vandalized for doing nothing.

Everything reported was wrong and totally and completely proven false.

This isn't a strawman this actually happened.

And has zero relevance with trusting a victim. It has everything to do with doing a smear peace without any journalistic integrity. You point is completely irrelevant for the topic.

The only source for the story was the alleged victim you get that right, the reporter trusted the woman claiming she was assaulted and based the story solely on her testimony and then when asked not to actually do her job and investigate she complied.

"I should be able to do anything consequence free"

Which side of the argument is that?

In terms of anything past staring I'd agree with your point.

In terms of staring. Really hard not to. As pointed out, this is not just with showing skin, this is anything that significantly stands out.

Its not hard not to stare

And it's not their job to prevent you from doing so

But that isn't true, it is natural to stare for both men and women. We have evolved past the point of being instinct driven animals and it isn't apropriate, but getting past your biological coding can be a challenge.

Its still youre resposnibility to not do things that make others uncomfortable

Ah, GOOD. I'm glad you said that.

What if said outfits make me uncomfortable?

Fun fact: YOU CAN LOOK AWAY FROM THAT

BUT YOU LOOKING AT SOMEONE ELSE IS SOMETHING THEY CAN'T STOP

And this is why I hate SJWs/White knights.

The logic or lack thereof is truly painful. Like actually, physically causes ouchies.

Yes, I can look away, I can find something else to distract myself.

Why should I?

Would it not just be easier to wear something more reasonable out?

I'm willing to bet If I wore said mankini I'd catch you staring.

I'm not saying everyone should cover up in robes or whatever. Just dress appropriately for the occasion. As Wisconsen had noted - looking as to be ok. If you are uncomfortable with someone looking at you, you have to ask why that is. Now, if you are shy, sure. I get it. I tend to be quite modest myself. That's a good reason.

BECAUSE YOU'RE A HUMAN BEING AND WHAT YOU ARE DOING RIGHT NOW IS PERPETURATING

and i really didn't want to bring it in here

**** CULTURE!

Its actually easier for you to not be an ass and look away then it is for them to change

And dont pull the crap that its on them not to be uncomfortable

Because I'm sorry but YOU are doing something wrong and not THEM

If you were to go out in that outfit

I bet

I BET you would get a couple high fives and people moving on with their jolly old day

if a woman did it SHE WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO BE HARASSED

You are victimizing yourself rather than admit that the other person has rights

I'm gonna try and nip this crap in the but once and for all. I'm a male nurse working in a major hospital have over 100 female friends and am never called sexist. For all those in the PC crowd with your head stuck under a rock, I'll point this out to you " Woman are not interested in table top miniature games but some do like Star Wars ". So in many years of gaming I have been regularly ridiculed by close to 90% of all the woman I have met or worked with. The last 10% have either thought it was cute dismissed it or thought it was cool to some degree.

Considering that I have worked with hundreds of woman, I'm sure that this is the normal for woman. Guys they ain't interested and we ain't gonna get them interested and it's got nothing to do with anything like sexism

Hey. The person responsible for assault is the person doing the assaulting. Always.

No matter what type of judgment you think the survivor of said assault has. It shouldn't even enter into it. "No," is not a mixed message, no matter what room it's said in.

QFT.

If you assault it's your fault. No one owes you anything because they invited you to their bedroom.

And since we're talking about this issue in regard to how it affects gaming communities, this also extends to hotel rooms at cons.

Yes yes yes! Thank you for pointing that out.

In regards to alcohol intake, yes can mean no as well depending on where you are.

Absolutely! To be safe, I would recommend not having a sexual encounter with someone who is intoxicated that you have not had previous positive sexual encounters with while sober. or you know. Just wait until the next morning when they're sober.

1) it's costing rolling stone $25 million in damages and been a serious blow to their reputation and credibility, Don't thing trusting people cant turn bad on you it can.

bull straw man. Thrusting someone and publishing a story are to complete different things. If you believe that you can publish based on thrust alone than you are delusional about journalistic work.

Y'know that's exactly what rolling stone did right that's why they are being sued because they published a story about gang **** with zero evidence.

The reporter took the word of the "victim" and painted an entire fraternity as serial rapists in a large publication with no proof.

Those guys got death threats and had property vandalized for doing nothing.

Everything reported was wrong and totally and completely proven false.

This isn't a strawman this actually happened.

And has zero relevance with trusting a victim. It has everything to do with doing a smear peace without any journalistic integrity. You point is completely irrelevant for the topic.

The only source for the story was the alleged victim you get that right, the reporter trusted the woman claiming she was assaulted and based the story solely on her testimony and then when asked not to actually do her job and investigate she complied.

The problem with the UVA story is not, "we believed the victim."

The problem with the UVA story is that the reporter did not thoroughly vet the story. And her editors did not identify this issue and let it go to print.

Again: journalism is held to a different standard than basic human compassion is.

I think here it is always wrong to go to far if the other party says NO. NO means NO.

Inviting someone to the bedroom and stuff starts happening is a bad judgment call. I know it's no excuse, but that is putting yourself in a bad situation from the start. The living room to watch movie, and stuff happens is a different type of situation. It's not implied from the start that anything should have happened at all. Inviting someone to your bedroom is sending a mixed type of message to the other party, but it is still up to one person to always respect the other persons wishes even in bad situations.

So I'm going to get on my soapbox here, because what you said makes me feel like I need to.

A person can be entirely undressed and say, "nevermind, I don't want to." If they get assaulted, it is 100% THE FAULT OF THE PERSON WHO ASSAULTED THEM.

When you revoke consent, you revoke it. It doesn't matter if you're in a bedroom or a dungeon. It is revoked.

This idea about mixed messages and bad judgment calls makes me sick.

What about the girl who lives with roommates and who's only private space to talk to someone is a bedroom? Is it okay she got assaulted, because she invited someone into her room?

I should never have to think, "this guy may assault me, better not invite him to my room!" NEVER. A bedroom assault is NO DIFFERENT than a living room assault. And the fact that you think it is makes me so, so sad.

I said No means NO.

In our culture bedroom is sending a mixed message.

The girl that lives in a bedroom is still no = no.

I agree no you should not have to think like that. I may have not expressed that as well as I could have.

here's the thing, I got what you were saying.

You said no means no.... BUT. But if she invited him to her bedroom instead of the living room he was getting mixed messages, so it's a little bit her fault if he takes them to far.

No means no regardless of what room it is.

Regardless of the state of dress.

Regardless of alcohol intake.

Regardless. No is no.

It's not a little her fault. It's only the fault of the party that keeps going after the other person says no.

As I stated I may not have worded that to well. All that was meant is that inviting someone to the room can be putting yourself in a bad situation. It's sad, but true. I am not in the little her fault camp at all.

It's not a little her fault. It's only the fault of the party that keeps going after the other person says no.

As I stated I may not have worded that to well. All that was meant is that inviting someone to the room can be putting yourself in a bad situation. It's sad, but true. I am not in the little her fault camp at all.

Good. I am glad to hear that. I would just be wont to point out that no man would ever be accused of inviting a woman to his room as putting himself in a bad situation, and it's just... frankly it just sucks that I have to spend my days thinking, "If I do this, could I end up raped?"

Can we just teach people not to assault, versus telling women to not put themselves in situations where they could get assaulted?

Hi.

I've been going back and forth on if I wanted to weigh in on this and I've decided I do.

I'm a 25 year old female TO at my local game store. I was a TO/Judge/Marshall/whatever a store championship that created a 14+ page thread here with another woman. I will also be TOing/Marshalling at the regionals my store is hosting (so if you're coming to the sunshine state you'll get to see my smiling face bright and early for registration).

I can't help but laugh as I read this thread, because it's proving something I've said to my fiancé (a regular poster here and the person who runs our local x-wing league) many times - men respect other men more than they respect women.

I've been in gaming for a while. I'm actually the one who begged my fiancé to start a DnD group. Sure, I joined x-wing to spend more time with him, but also because it's fun. Here's some things I've noticed.

- Since being engaged I don't get the sexual harassment I used to get. I used to be told that I was nothing but a hole, that my opinion didn't matter and I needed to "get in the kitchen". I used to no be able to tell someone 'no' without them going on about how "oh you gamer girls are all alike, you don't want to talk to anyone you're just here to be told you look good. Well I'm not going to do that, you're average at best" and other hurt nonsense. Since I got a ring on my finger, guys don't do that kind of stuff. Why? Because they RESPECT MY FIANCE MORE THAN THEY RESPECT ME. My no doesn't mean anything, but the idea that they could be encroaching on another man's "territory" does, so they back off.

- The most obvious way I've been treated like **** happens daily. It comes from players holding up ships and saying, "oh yeah? Then what's this?" It comes from my fellow TO getting asked if she "even plays x-wing". It comes from people looking to my fiancé or another man for confirmation of what I say because they don't trust that I know the rules. Judgments are passed about me because of what's between my legs that would never be considered if I had a beard. Like a spectator to a tournament yelling at me, calling me "hysterical" (which, if you look up the roots of the word is gendered and, for the situation, completely inappropriate).

The important thing to remember is you lose nothing from believing a victim. And I can believe what she said, because they have happened to me.

Women are PEOPLE. We are not there to give you something pretty to look at. Treat us like people, and don't push yourself onto a woman who tells you no. I am in a male dominated field, and I have had customers call me a "little girl" at work. It is not just gaming, it is EVERYWHERE.

But in the gaming community the men have a reputation for casual sexism because of things like gamergate, because so many women feel like they walk into a game store and have to be on guard.

At gencon last year, the Doubleclicks played at the Concert Against Humanity. And they played a song that really spoke to me, because they introduced it and said, "Hey you guys need to listen to this, because it can change a lot of things." (paraphrase)

I'll post it now, because ultimately, my point is this. I DO NOT because most gamers are rapists or prone to sexual assault. But I do think they are prone to not letting me in their world if I don't know who illustrated that issue of spiderman. Or who originally piloted that ship in the expanded universe. That's the type of sexism I've experienced.

Your mileage may vary, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Rjy5yW1gQ

Wow. So much of this is pretty much what I was going go write. Not because I'm a woman (which I'm not) but because so many of these behaviours are things I've witnessed. I'll be honest; I've never witnessed this sort of behaviour in a gaming store or tournament but so many times in our wider society.

"My no doesn't mean anything, but the idea that they could be encroaching on another man's "territory" does, so they back off."

"Women are PEOPLE. We are not there to give you something pretty to look at. Treat us like people, and don't push yourself onto a woman who tells you no."

"I should be able to do anything consequence free"

Which side of the argument is that?

In terms of anything past staring I'd agree with your point.

In terms of staring. Really hard not to. As pointed out, this is not just with showing skin, this is anything that significantly stands out.

Its not hard not to stare

And it's not their job to prevent you from doing so

But that isn't true, it is natural to stare for both men and women. We have evolved past the point of being instinct driven animals and it isn't apropriate, but getting past your biological coding can be a challenge.

Its still youre resposnibility to not do things that make others uncomfortable

Ah, GOOD. I'm glad you said that.

What if said outfits make me uncomfortable?

Fun fact: YOU CAN LOOK AWAY FROM THAT

BUT YOU LOOKING AT SOMEONE ELSE IS SOMETHING THEY CAN'T STOP

And this is why I hate SJWs/White knights.

The logic or lack thereof is truly painful. Like actually, physically causes ouchies.

Yes, I can look away, I can find something else to distract myself.

Why should I?

Would it not just be easier to wear something more reasonable out?

I'm willing to bet If I wore said mankini I'd catch you staring.

I'm not saying everyone should cover up in robes or whatever. Just dress appropriately for the occasion. As Wisconsen had noted - looking as to be ok. If you are uncomfortable with someone looking at you, you have to ask why that is. Now, if you are shy, sure. I get it. I tend to be quite modest myself. That's a good reason.

BECAUSE YOU'RE A HUMAN BEING AND WHAT YOU ARE DOING RIGHT NOW IS PERPETURATING

and i really didn't want to bring it in here

**** CULTURE!

Its actually easier for you to not be an ass and look away then it is for them to change

And dont pull the crap that its on them not to be uncomfortable

Because I'm sorry but YOU are doing something wrong and not THEM

If you were to go out in that outfit

I bet

I BET you would get a couple high fives and people moving on with their jolly old day

if a woman did it SHE WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO BE HARASSED

You are victimizing yourself rather than admit that the other person has rights

Is it bad that I heard that in a really high pitched screechy voice when I read it?

Dude. I get it, idealistic SJW.

It'd be really nice if the world worked like that. It doesn't. It's infinitely more complex, so please wake up, grow up, smell the roses etc.

Like I said, I'm very good at diverting my gaze as appropriate. Matching eyes etc. Probably better than you are.

What I question is the necessity of doing so. At a certain point, when is it more flattering to look at said outfit.

Some outfits just are not appropriate for some cultures/situation. They will grab attention. Maybe you'll understand it if i said they grab Agro? Need a tank nearby? Again, i'll use myself as an example, as it's fair to do so. Say I went to a mall, wearing said mankini. going full borat. Making people uncomfortable, and make no mistake with my pale ass it would. would that be ok?

No. Of course it would not. There are no ifs or buts. It's not apt. I would be in the wrong.

I would also be in the wrong if i walked around completely naked but for bodypaint and a few bits of strategic duct tape.

It's just not socially appropriate.

Also staring happens. it's hard coded.

Just so we all know, we have had a small jump in viewers.

It's not a little her fault. It's only the fault of the party that keeps going after the other person says no.

As I stated I may not have worded that to well. All that was meant is that inviting someone to the room can be putting yourself in a bad situation. It's sad, but true. I am not in the little her fault camp at all.

Good. I am glad to hear that. I would just be wont to point out that no man would ever be accused of inviting a woman to his room as putting himself in a bad situation, and it's just... frankly it just sucks that I have to spend my days thinking, "If I do this, could I end up raped?"

Can we just teach people not to assault, versus telling women to not put themselves in situations where they could get assaulted?

I do hope that we can, but for now I am going to teach my daughter about situations that can be harmful to her.

My ex brother in law had some woman grabbing him in a taxi and he had to throw her out. The problem here is that he was lucky and had the strength to do it. It should never come down to that in any situation. I know kind of weird, but it sometimes (not often) can happen the other way as well.

Just so we all know, we have had a small jump in viewers.

Maybe I should get that bodypaint out...

Just so we all know, we have had a small jump in viewers.

Maybe I should get that bodypaint out...

Another spike, seems you're on the right path.

TL;DR - our society has some messed up attitudes to women. I don't believe it's specific or inherent to gaming but to all male dominated western society. That's what needs addressing.

Thank you so much for weighing in! I admit, it's difficult being the only woman in the thread who's spoken up about what she has experienced. Seeing what you went through, through your fiancées eyes, is a very valid part of this discussion. I'm sure a lot of the things you've talked about, my fiancé would say he experienced as well. The idea that men apologize to YOU or HIM when they come onto us rudely, is the problem. Men respect men more than they respect women. And it should really be equal.

Catcalling, street harassment... I've had men follow me and try their lines. It makes me afraid. My coworkers (only female in my region doing my job) make fun of me for having mace on my keychain. But they've never been stalked to their car and had someone bang on their window about how "snow bunny you gotta let me get your number, I'm giving I treat girls right!"

Given that sometimes men do get their geek cred challenged, I just want to say I doubt it is with the ferocity mine is. I'm demo'ing games in a few weeks at a local con - how much you want to bet someone who plays the game is going to come over and challenge what I say? It happens. It's part of the culture of one-upmanship. It's just it happens with a higher frequency to women in gaming.

Thank you so much for your valid opinion, and well worded, compelling post. It's something I think people need to hear.