She doesn't open with "All white men are terrorists." The title is "Tabletop gaming has a white male terrorism problem." She's not saying ALL white men are doing this, but that all the ones that are doing are white men.

Post #109 collates all the examples where the author does mass generalise. They then contradict that at the end which leads me to believe they don't actually mean to and read into it deep enough and you see that they aren't trying to blame all white guys for the way they've been treated. But anyone who's not already one of the converted is not going to do that. They'll see parts such as "#allmen are complicit in the harassment" and you've lost them. They'll write it off as a piece by one of the geniune bigots (which exist in every church) and either be unmoved or driven further away.

Thank you, HurricaneMaanen. While the very unpleasant people such as those described in the OP's link exist, we miss the shrapnel in the fireworks. I sure did until you posted this.

But I do think they are prone to not letting me in their world if I don't know who illustrated that issue of spiderman. Or who originally piloted that ship in the expanded universe. That's the type of sexism I've experienced.

With all the hyperbole being thrown around (it opened with White Male Terrorists) the important details like this get overlooked.

My first thought on reading this part was "but if they do that to everyone then surely they're not being sexist?"

And then I thought about it more.

We don't do that to everyone. Or rather, not in the same way.

It's not hostility, it's disbelief.

There's no sexist intent behind it, but for so many the initial response to discovering a woman in a male dominated interest area is skepticism. The automatic response is to get them to prove it, to ask them for their nerd credentials. How singled out do you feel when you're the only one asked for your ID?

And there it is. We get so focused on arguing over cases of misogynistic physical threat that we ignore the far more common occurence of unintentionally making women feel out of place.

Then I guess I have an example of me helping. The idea of a fake geek girl is so strange to me (why would anyone do something they don't enjoy just to get hit on by nerds?)* that when a girl played D&D with my group for months hoping someone would ask her out I didn't understand her real motivation until it was pointed out to me. It was actually kind of sad; she has a condition that put her in crutches and I think she was hoping that having a boyfriend would boost her self esteem. I don't know if she started D&D because she was also interested in the game or if it was because I was playing it, but either way I didn't see any reason to interrogate her on her nerd cred and wouldn't have even if I hadn't met her before.

On a side note, guys? It's really awkward being the one doing the rejecting.

*I've always heard the term "fake geek girl" used to refer to a girl that takes up nerdy hobbies like trading card games or similar because she wants male attention but isn't attractive enough to "compete" in places where there are a higher number of girls. I have never met such a person, and I'm pretty open about my hostility to people that make these accusations. I usually ignore it when people are being rude to each other, but I really don't appreciate it when people further the "entitled misogynistic nerd" stereotype.

How much longer till this thread gets locked?

Not anytime soon? The only reason the last 4 were locked was because they devolved into flame wars

I would love to be sexually harassed. But me too fuzzy.

F-

Come back when you can type in shyriwook, then maybe people will take you seriously. Also upgrade your humor routines.

Making a joke about not caring who your enemy is as long as you can crush them into submission, is much more appropriate then making a joke about a minority group that has a serious issue.

Fly Casual, and crush your enemies.

****! GIVE THAT Y-WING HIS ELITE POSTER TALENT!

I live to make amends for the damage FFG caused by discriminating against Y-wings, and not allowing Horton an EPT.

Fly Casual, Crush Your Enemies.

At the same time, all these extra rules and codes of conduct really make male to female interaction way more complex than it really is. It goes both ways as well. HurricaneMaanne you mention not appreciating guys ogling your chest/rear bumper. That's fine, that's cool. Eyes up here. I get that, I appreciate that. Hell. I want that.

Random girl wearing tights/no shorts leaving far too little to the imagination - I don't want to see that.

I mean I'm actively trying not to look. It's not to say said girl isn't attractive, that's totally irrelevant. This is down to the don't stare / stare argument.

When is it ok/not ok.

Here's an example. Halcon last year. REALLY GLAD FOR MY STORMTROOPER HELMET! Because nearly naked young ladies dressed as anime characters are eye catching. Not trying to ogle. Not trying to sound like a perv, but let's be honest with ourselves. If something looks nice, you want to look at it.

Is this contradictory? Yeah it is. I don't want to look, and appear a perv, or create undue attention - rather focus on what i'm doing. But it's so **** hard not to look sometimes.

It's really not hard

And even if it is

It's your responsibility to have self control

Not theirs

See I can't agree with this. What you are saying is idealistic, but in being so not realistic.

It's not just the aforementioned nearly naked young lady example I put forward.

This is... anything someone dropping a crate full of breakables for example.

You see something, you're gonna look.

What about the guy/girl with really really bright/outrageous hair colouring?

You are gonna look, might try not to but your eyes might linger for more than a fraction of a second.

At the same time, all these extra rules and codes of conduct really make male to female interaction way more complex than it really is. It goes both ways as well. HurricaneMaanne you mention not appreciating guys ogling your chest/rear bumper. That's fine, that's cool. Eyes up here. I get that, I appreciate that. Hell. I want that.

Random girl wearing tights/no shorts leaving far too little to the imagination - I don't want to see that.

I mean I'm actively trying not to look. It's not to say said girl isn't attractive, that's totally irrelevant. This is down to the don't stare / stare argument.

When is it ok/not ok.

Here's an example. Halcon last year. REALLY GLAD FOR MY STORMTROOPER HELMET! Because nearly naked young ladies dressed as anime characters are eye catching. Not trying to ogle. Not trying to sound like a perv, but let's be honest with ourselves. If something looks nice, you want to look at it.

Is this contradictory? Yeah it is. I don't want to look, and appear a perv, or create undue attention - rather focus on what i'm doing. But it's so **** hard not to look sometimes.

It's really not hard

And even if it is

It's your responsibility to have self control

Not theirs

You are far to much into absolutes here. It is mine responsible to exercise self-control, at the same time the purpose of an eye catcher is to catch eyes. It is like with naked sauna or public breast feeding. A look is ok, staring is not.

edit: And before someone missunderstands me on purpose: Public breastfeeding is not an intentional eye catcher, just a natural one. Just like nude bathing or sauna, or that dude with a giant junk right beside you on that pissoir. Don't stare, even when you most likely will take a look.

Shouldn't that be "Fly casual, crush your enemies, and leave the toilet seat down"?

Leaving the toilet seat down is sexist. You think a woman is incapable of putting ti down herself, she needs a strong man to put it down for her?

Serious question here, who doesn't sit down at home? I mean really, its just a thousand times more comfortable than having to aim at a target thats way too low.

Also on topic: Sexism is bad, didn't quite like the article because of how much anecdotes (which are shocking, but not the norm) and hyperbole was there, but the issue is there (and goes both ways, although probably rarely in gaming). There should be no person that says "I don't want to play X-Wing (or any other kind of game of course) because I feel uncomfortable in the community", only people who don't play because they have no interest. I do speak from the perspective of a German, though, can't say how you have it in north America.

"We aren't the problem, YOU'RE THE PROBLEM"

The result of making nerds confront the idea that they too can be responsible for awful things

Again it doesn't matter if YOU don't see it

What matters is that we should accept it exists and be mindful of it when it does happen

AWKNOWLEDGING IT WONT HURT YOU AT ALL

Also something I really have to say as a nerd

We really need to get off our high horse and accept others into the community more

We are very clicky by nature because a lot of us for the longest time grew up liking the weird things and not being understood

And before you guys start saying things like "I'm not like that!" Or "I've never seen that"

I have in several places

It exists

Im not attacking you

Because no one ever lies do they...

You shouldn't believe anyone just because they come from a certain gender or ethnicity, trust but verify.

To do so just marks you out as gullible.

1. What does it cost you to believe a person who claims that they have been hurt?

2. "Trust but verify," is fine as long as there is a way to verify, which does. not. exist. for most forms of harassment or abuse/assault. This is a common thread if you look at the stories of people who come forward about these issues. Is this woman required to show you CCTV footage of getting groped? Dates, times, receipts? Sworn affidavits from a dozen bystanders? At what point does something get "proven?"

3. What insidious motive do you believe a person claiming to have been victimized in this way has? How does being visible about this and becoming a lightning rod for more harassment, and for more people to attack her character, benefit her?

4. What does it cost you to believe a person who claims that they have been hurt?

The tiny spaceships are cool, but the real victories in Star Wars have always been won by the power of compassion.

1) it's costing rolling stone $25 million in damages and been a serious blow to their reputation and credibility, Don't thing trusting people cant turn bad on you it can.

2) If you can't prove an allegation then the allegation is worthless it's a case of she said he said, such allegations can ruin the lives of people, break up marriages and get people fired you absolutely should have hard proof before accusing anyone of anything.

3) some people want attention even if it's the negative kind.

4) It costs me credibility if i put my support behind someone then find out they have lied, it costs me self worth for being tricked.

See ... there is a problem with declaring what people can and can't look at. The problem is that it is a very very fine line. Some staring is flirting and wanted, some is creepy and disturbing. Sometimes it is clear cut which is which, other times not so much. It's a back and forth of "Don't stare at my assets" and "Then don't show off your assets" from there you get into, "Control your eyes" vs "Control your wardrobe" and the truth is none of those arguments and discussions are productive, and frankly none of them end well.

One of (not the only one mind you) large differences between flirting and creeping is if the attention is wanted or not, and sometimes (but not all times) it can be very hard to tell the difference.

I am not saying that as a excuse, or as a justification, but as a fact. I can't tell you the number of times i've watched someone across a crowded smokey bar, drinking up the courage to speak to them, only to find out they are already with someone, or not interested. Which of course is no harm no foul, you don't know till you try, but how many of those times did i unknowingly give off a creeper vibe? Is that wrong? is it even right to judge that? Sometimes things are not so clear cut, and it is always much easier to keep my eyes to myself when the things i am attracted to are not being shown off and having attention drawn to them.

I'm sure someone will disagree with that, and it's ok, but now at the end of my post i want you to reread it, and remember that i didn't mention if i was looking at men or women (not that my preferences matter at all) and think about which you assumed i was talking about, and if it would change your opinion if i was talking about the other. Like i said, things are not always so clear cut.

I'm going to start by saying two things:

1) this post is gonna be long

2) I am NOT trying to equate my experience to that of women in the gaming community, the story I'm about to tell is merely meant to illustrate that offensive/harassing conduct and comments happens all the time and people just don't recognize it because it isn't directed at them or about the gender/race/ethnic/religious/identity/orientation group that they identify with.

I heard about a store reasonably close to where I work that had a thriving Netrunner community that was branching into 40k Conquest. They also have a decently large X-Wing group. I figured this is perfect! I can find a place to play the games I love close to work, great way to unwind for an hour after a long day. So I stopped by to visit, had my cards in the car, and figured I would scope out the territory and find some opponents. So I walk in, look around the gaming area. There are some people plays Netrunner, a couple games of X-wing, and a group playing D&D. I start making my way towards the Netrunner games when I hear this exchange from the D&D group.

DM: "An enormous troll lumbers out from the shadows in the back of the cave."

Player 1: "Oh no, a Jew!!!"

DM: "Huh?"

Player 1: "You know, because of the warts and the huge nose?"

*laughter*

Player 2: "Oh my god, yeah, plus they won't die no matter how hard you try to kill them!"

*louder laughter*

DM: " Unless you throw them in an oven."

*hysterical laughter from all players/DM*

I looked over at the other people playing various games, and saw several smirks on their faces, no one said anything about how those "jokes" were horrid and offensive. I (being a white Jewish man) turned around and walked out. I will never go to that store again.

Now. Why didn't I say anything? Why didn't I step in to point out how offensive their comments were? Because there were over a dozen people in that gaming room, almost all of whom heard the exchange, and no one said anything. Other people were even in on the "joke," which just so happened to include references to the holocaust and trying to kill Jews. No one said anything, no one even appeared to care about what was said. Speaking up had the potential to put me in an intensely dangerous position.

Now imagine a woman walks into a gaming store to scope it out, and hears **** jokes that aren't directed at her but no one shouts them down. What would a reasonable woman do in that situation? I imagine she would leave. It's a situation that you can't gauge properly based on limited experience, but the facts that that woman has are these:

1: a joke was made about ****.

2: no one thought that was bad enough to say anything.

That's enough to reasonably and quite justifiably make up an opinion and just walk away.

And this just scratches the surface. I have heard or seen all of the following, and if you have been gaming for long enough then you have likely seen similar conduct or just haven't noticed it (because it wasn't directed at you):

1: racist jokes

2: jokes against religions (most often Jews or Muslims)

3: jokes about ****

4: jokes about women

5: Lamentations about being in the "friend zone"

6: outright leering at women who come into the store. Just staring creepily.

7: men actually smacking women (sometimes actual teenage girls) on the rear.

This was all at game stores. When you add cons into the mix I've seen groping (beyond smacks) thrown in the mix as well. When you add in a LARP I used to attend, literal **** has happened. When I see or hear things like this I speak up (except in situations where it is directed at me and the danger outweighs anything else, then I just get out). When I saw a grown man smack a young girl (17 at the oldest) on the rear, would you like to know what happened?

Me: "Dude, that was not only f'ed up, but it was literally a crime. You need to apologize."

Butt Smacker: "I don't know what you're talking about."

Butt Smacker Lackey: "Yeah, you're just taking her side so you can get laid."

Me: "You are both disgusting, and you have no right to treat a human being the way you treated her."

At this point the other two started screaming, and the store owner (friends with these two shining exemplars of humanity) actually threw me out.

These kinds of things happen. Not every gamer says or does them, but every gamer who doesn't call them out when they happen is part of the problem. And as a final note, you do not have any right to decide what other people find offensive. Even if you are an utter Neanderthal and don't understand that some things are just inappropriate for civilized interactions, if you say something inadvertently offensive and someone says "hey, that was offensive," you have two options. You can:

1) get offended yourself and tell that person that it wasn't offensive, they are just too sensitive

2) apologize, and at the most say "I didn't intend that to be offensive, i am very sorry for that, I should have thought that through."

Be the second guy. Always.

Edit: ever censored word is the R word that means non-consensual sexual activity.

Thank you for weighing in on this HurricaneMaanen. Thank you for providing a perspective most of us do not have and could not experience.

This isn't about the blatant and the obvious. It is about how we treat others. I honestly couldn't say I would call a guy out on knowledge of the game until it came up in gameplay. I hope I would extend the same courtesy to a woman, but I had not looked at myself in the mirror on that issue.

If it comes down to knowing a specific faction of nerd culture, in some areas I will do very well, in some I will not. I sure wouldn't want to be called out on it, and I'm sure no one else does either, no matter the color of their skin or the way their body was made. Yes, there can be defensive flippancy in topics like this, but I'm thankful that some people are actually expressing thoughtful responses and showing how our X-Wing gaming culture is affecting those around us, both good and bad.

I hope you can look in the mirror and say you wouldn't treat someone differently because of their gender. But we have to announce that our word is final as TOs because people try to get us overruled. They try to argue. Because clearly they know the game better than some girl in a glittered "Tournament Organizer" shirt.

The ultimate message is be excellent to one another. We're all just people trying to have fun.

Awesome that you are a TO I do hope that in some way that you feel like your being appreciated for doing it. Hopefully people in the store that you TO at are starting to defend you some and tell the people that are giving you a hard time to back off. There are people that like to argue and get second opinions without gender being involved especially in the wargaming world. Hopefully they are not doing this only because your female, but it looks like that is not the case.

I will also say that I appreciate you taking your time and being a TO even tho it seems like you are given a hard time about it. People should be grateful that they have someone to run a tournament so that they can play the game.

I'm an archaeologist not a rocket scientist, but I reckon that instead of a bunch of mostly middle-aged male gamers discussing **** that they really know very little about, they should maybe do the obvious.

Ask women why they don't game.

Find out and then address the issue.

Cheers

Baaa

This assumes that women are a hive mind with identical experiences.

Talk to one woman, and she's got no problems, talk to another, and she's been assaulted, talk to yet another, and she's skeptical of all this so-called rampant sexism in male dominated hobbies.Talk to another woman, and she might just have no opinion at all.

At post #229 and #230

Looking to appreciate the costume is one thing

Staring is another

There is a difference

Self control is still on you

And why can't women wear small outfits without fear of being oogled at?

Also I'm going to give an example of why I hate men complaining about it being hard for them to exercise self control

I have heard the phrase "your making this hard for me" on so many occasions to justify men (and sometimes women) doing irresponsible decions like cheating (and far worse things)

By saying it's making it hard for them

It's putting the blame solely on the other person so that they do not need to justify a wrong action

Ok. So what if I were to wear a bright orange mankini (and boba fett helmet) out in public?

Can't tell me people won't stare, are you telling me that's alright?

Of course it isn't. It's not appropriate for me to wear said mankini.

Shouldn't that be "Fly casual, crush your enemies, and leave the toilet seat down"?

Leaving the toilet seat down is sexist. You think a woman is incapable of putting ti down herself, she needs a strong man to put it down for her?

Serious question here, who doesn't sit down at home? I mean really, its just a thousand times more comfortable than having to aim at a target thats way too low.

Uhm, it is not that far away.

My first rule, I clean it, I stand, I don't clean it, I sit.

My second rule: "One Step closer, he might be smaller than you think he is.", which reduces extra cleaning to a minimum. ;-)

And yeah, the whole store communities might be more of an american thing. I guess a lot more people play at home or in even just in pubs instead of their FLGS.

Thank you for weighing in on this HurricaneMaanen. Thank you for providing a perspective most of us do not have and could not experience.

This isn't about the blatant and the obvious. It is about how we treat others. I honestly couldn't say I would call a guy out on knowledge of the game until it came up in gameplay. I hope I would extend the same courtesy to a woman, but I had not looked at myself in the mirror on that issue.

If it comes down to knowing a specific faction of nerd culture, in some areas I will do very well, in some I will not. I sure wouldn't want to be called out on it, and I'm sure no one else does either, no matter the color of their skin or the way their body was made. Yes, there can be defensive flippancy in topics like this, but I'm thankful that some people are actually expressing thoughtful responses and showing how our X-Wing gaming culture is affecting those around us, both good and bad.

I hope you can look in the mirror and say you wouldn't treat someone differently because of their gender. But we have to announce that our word is final as TOs because people try to get us overruled. They try to argue. Because clearly they know the game better than some girl in a glittered "Tournament Organizer" shirt.

The ultimate message is be excellent to one another. We're all just people trying to have fun.

Awesome that you are a TO I do hope that in some way that you feel like your being appreciated for doing it. Hopefully people in the store that you TO at are starting to defend you some and tell the people that are giving you a hard time to back off. There are people that like to argue and get second opinions without gender being involved especially in the wargaming world. Hopefully they are not doing this only because your female, but it looks like that is not the case.

I will also say that I appreciate you taking your time and being a TO even tho it seems like you are given a hard time about it. People should be grateful that they have someone to run a tournament so that they can play the game.

Thank you! My fiancé is in the group I TO for, but he chooses not to step in. He knows it is important for me to fight my own battles and not look like I need a man to step in and rescue me. He's even said to someone, "I feel bad for that guy because I recognize that look on her face." Men respect men more than they respect women, so for him to step in just further enhances that. If it got really bad I'm sure he would, but for now, I fight my own battles.

And yeah, I'm a TO for exactly that reason - so someone I love actually gets to play the game. My local group is wonderful, and I'm excited about regionals, though I have no idea how it will turn out in terms of respect. For the most part, people realize I'm really good at what I do, so they don't question me.

Ok. So what if I were to wear a bright orange mankini (and boba fett helmet) out in public?

Can't tell me people won't stare, are you telling me that's alright?

Of course it isn't. It's not appropriate for me to wear said mankini.

Actually you have every right too

And you have every right too without being sexually harassed

In fact if you were to do it I bet you wouldn't be sexually harrassed nearly as much as if a woman did it

My wife likes to play a wide variety of (board) games.

Alas none of the games she likes is tactical. So no Armada, no X-wing or Imperial assault.

I think it is kinda normal. Females liking different things.

I do not mind females being different.

Fly casual.

Ok. So what if I were to wear a bright orange mankini (and boba fett helmet) out in public?

Can't tell me people won't stare, are you telling me that's alright?

Of course it isn't. It's not appropriate for me to wear said mankini.

Actually you have every right too

And you have every right too without being sexually harassed

In fact if you were to do it I bet you wouldn't be sexually harrassed nearly as much as if a woman did it

Idealism. Not realism.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

"Just the facts."

-Joe Friday

1) it's costing rolling stone $25 million in damages and been a serious blow to their reputation and credibility, Don't thing trusting people cant turn bad on you it can.

bull straw man. Thrusting someone and publishing a story are to complete different things. If you believe that you can publish based on thrust alone than you are delusional about journalistic work.

Ok. So what if I were to wear a bright orange mankini (and boba fett helmet) out in public?

Can't tell me people won't stare, are you telling me that's alright?

Of course it isn't. It's not appropriate for me to wear said mankini.

Actually you have every right too

And you have every right too without being sexually harassed

In fact if you were to do it I bet you wouldn't be sexually harrassed nearly as much as if a woman did it

Idealism. Not realism.

CF: Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

You're right it is idealism

BUT YOURE RIGHTS SHOULD BE BASED ON IDEALISM

AND WE SHOULD STRIVE FOR IDEALISM!

that's why it's called idealism

Because it's ideal

And you should have the right to dress how you want without fear of assholes taking advantage of it

Also why shouldn't you dress like that?

That sounds like a great day

"Just the facts."

-Joe Friday

The problem is, a lot of times the facts are, "I invited him up to my room. We started making out, and I told him I didn't want it to go any farther. He didn't listen."

And someone will shout, "Well why'd you invite him to your room anyways? He was just picking up the clues you were putting down!"

And that's it. The facts are what the facts are. People try to justify away the facts.

"We aren't the problem, YOU'RE THE PROBLEM"

The result of making nerds confront the idea that they too can be responsible for awful things

Again it doesn't matter if YOU don't see it

What matters is that we should accept it exists and be mindful of it when it does happen

AWKNOWLEDGING IT WONT HURT YOU AT ALL

Also something I really have to say as a nerd

We really need to get off our high horse and accept others into the community more

We are very clicky by nature because a lot of us for the longest time grew up liking the weird things and not being understood

And before you guys start saying things like "I'm not like that!" Or "I've never seen that"

I have in several places

It exists

Im not attacking you

Because no one ever lies do they...

You shouldn't believe anyone just because they come from a certain gender or ethnicity, trust but verify.

To do so just marks you out as gullible.

1. What does it cost you to believe a person who claims that they have been hurt?

2. "Trust but verify," is fine as long as there is a way to verify, which does. not. exist. for most forms of harassment or abuse/assault. This is a common thread if you look at the stories of people who come forward about these issues. Is this woman required to show you CCTV footage of getting groped? Dates, times, receipts? Sworn affidavits from a dozen bystanders? At what point does something get "proven?"

3. What insidious motive do you believe a person claiming to have been victimized in this way has? How does being visible about this and becoming a lightning rod for more harassment, and for more people to attack her character, benefit her?

4. What does it cost you to believe a person who claims that they have been hurt?

The tiny spaceships are cool, but the real victories in Star Wars have always been won by the power of compassion.

1) it's costing rolling stone $25 million in damages and been a serious blow to their reputation and credibility, Don't thing trusting people cant turn bad on you it can.

2) If you can't prove an allegation then the allegation is worthless it's a case of she said he said, such allegations can ruin the lives of people, break up marriages and get people fired you absolutely should have hard proof before accusing anyone of anything.

3) some people want attention even if it's the negative kind.

4) It costs me credibility if i put my support behind someone then find out they have lied, it costs me self worth for being tricked.

I'm not naive about the fact that people lie for various reasons. But I'd rather let my trust be misplaced than let someone think they're alone.

I'm not an investigative journalist - they're held to a different standard once they publish something, and it's a false equivalency to say that Rolling Stone's failure to vet its story properly is the same as you or I giving a show of support.

Ok. So what if I were to wear a bright orange mankini (and boba fett helmet) out in public?

Can't tell me people won't stare, are you telling me that's alright?

Of course it isn't. It's not appropriate for me to wear said mankini.

Actually you have every right too

And you have every right too without being sexually harassed

In fact if you were to do it I bet you wouldn't be sexually harrassed nearly as much as if a woman did it

Idealism. Not realism.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Are the united states really that bad?

Ok. So what if I were to wear a bright orange mankini (and boba fett helmet) out in public?

Can't tell me people won't stare, are you telling me that's alright?

Of course it isn't. It's not appropriate for me to wear said mankini.

Actually you have every right too

And you have every right too without being sexually harassed

In fact if you were to do it I bet you wouldn't be sexually harrassed nearly as much as if a woman did it

Idealism. Not realism.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Are the united states really that bad?

Without diving into really personal details about my life, I'll just say...

yeah. Sometimes it is really that bad.