Could we all step back and just agree

1) Demo is a great ship and when played well is hard to beat.

2) having last and first activation is super cool and makes some ships very nasty indeed

3) you can win a tournament with both imps or rebels if you have the experience and play well.

4) and most importantly Armada is not x wing and there is no "killa" meta or useless models ( although some are niche)

All true, but what do you want to talk about instead?

SSD's, wave 3 rage quit?!

Anyways, here is the game I think about a lot:

I am honestly still at a loss as to what JJs could have done differently.

Forums are so fun!

Wow, there is actually quite a bit of good stuff in this thread. Thanks to those that contributed and especially that tried to answer my original question. What strategies work against the triple-tap?

Lots of replies seemed to agree with the ideas in my original post like: low bids, high-activations, etc. Even Advanced Projectors show some merit when combined with the large ships.

I really appreciated the discussion on piece trading (and the difference between that and forking). It's a strategy that anyone can employ and doesn't require specific fleet builds. That's helpful to everyone.

I know that I precipitated some of the arguments by stating that the triple-tap could reliably kill anything. Against average rolling you're looking at 5-6 damage per attack (assuming lots of rerolls). Add in 3-6 more from APTs, ACMs, or Expanded Launchers, and maybe 2 more from ramming and it isn't hard to reliably put out 20+ damage in a triple-tap. There are some specific builds that could tank that, although even they are not guarantees. I'll have to give it a try.

i do think anyone should game out a plan for dealing with the 5-ship, low-bid, triple-tap list before heading to a Regional or larger tournament this year. Just like Ackbar, Riiekian, or Ryhmer. I was just struggling more with this one.

set up to cap it from long range with your whole force, its the only way to be sure. make it your first target and attack it with every attack till its dead.

set up to cap it from long range with your whole force, its the only way to be sure. make it your first target and attack it with every attack till its dead.

If you can hit him during your turn, he could have hit you during his turn first (and then again before you go).

I am, personally, giving those AP's a second look more and more- I'd much rather deal with xi7 heavy fleets and have my AP's nerfed than deal with Clonisher.... clones.

I have Regionals this weekend (San Antonio, Dragon's Lair at 10am, come join us!), in which I'm sure to see at least two Clonisher... err... clones.

I have a specific plan to try and beat them if I see them. I'll report back on the results.

set up to cap it from long range with your whole force, its the only way to be sure. make it your first target and attack it with every attack till its dead.

Clonisher.... clones.

BAD JOKE NINJA'D! D:

set up to cap it from long range with your whole force, its the only way to be sure. make it your first target and attack it with every attack till its dead.

The problem is triple tap initiates from outside of red range and kills its victim between its activations. If the answer was simply focus fire at long range this thread would be called "Ackbar you so fishy why you kill me so hard from so far?"

set up to cap it from long range with your whole force, its the only way to be sure. make it your first target and attack it with every attack till its dead.

If you can hit him during your turn, he could have hit you during his turn first (and then again before you go).

I am, personally, giving those AP's a second look more and more- I'd much rather deal with xi7 heavy fleets and have my AP's nerfed than deal with Clonisher.... clones.

APs are also pretty handy against TRC fleets and Rhymer too. They'll be something of a luck of the draw upgrade.

Wow, there is actually quite a bit of good stuff in this thread. Thanks to those that contributed and especially that tried to answer my original question. What strategies work against the triple-tap?

Lots of replies seemed to agree with the ideas in my original post like: low bids, high-activations, etc. Even Advanced Projectors show some merit when combined with the large ships.

I really appreciated the discussion on piece trading (and the difference between that and forking). It's a strategy that anyone can employ and doesn't require specific fleet builds. That's helpful to everyone.

I know that I precipitated some of the arguments by stating that the triple-tap could reliably kill anything. Against average rolling you're looking at 5-6 damage per attack (assuming lots of rerolls). Add in 3-6 more from APTs, ACMs, or Expanded Launchers, and maybe 2 more from ramming and it isn't hard to reliably put out 20+ damage in a triple-tap. There are some specific builds that could tank that, although even they are not guarantees. I'll have to give it a try.

i do think anyone should game out a plan for dealing with the 5-ship, low-bid, triple-tap list before heading to a Regional or larger tournament this year. Just like Ackbar, Riiekian, or Ryhmer. I was just struggling more with this one.

I'm glad it was helpful and I find that a basic understanding of forking and piece trading will help your play in any kind of alternating activation game, Armada or no.

I'd like to see someone do some dice-rolling exercises with varying versions of Demolisher (I'd assume Gladiator-I + Ordnance Experts + Engine Techs as a given, past that you get variances between APTs/ACMs/Expanded Launchers and optional officers, usually Intel Officer, Montferrat, or nobody) versus differing ships with Advanced Projectors. Like I've said a few times, the meta is ripe for plucking by Clonisher-style fleets and if you want to fight back it's best to challenge some of the assumptions the Clonisher-style fleet is relying on to pop your ships, which includes expected upgrades on the other side of the table.

set up to cap it from long range with your whole force, its the only way to be sure. make it your first target and attack it with every attack till its dead.

Given that the Clonisher-style fleet's genesis was Imperials searching for a solution to the Ackbar conga line fleet, I can confidently tell you that this plan will spectacularly not work and is counter-productive to finding a solution*. The Clonisher-style fleet outactivates you and rushes from long range (sometimes outside of long range) to close range strategically once it's safe to do so. Nobody is going to leave their most crucial ship on the receiving end of a shooting gallery for an entire fleet to pound on when they get to activate before you and after you.

*I keep seeing Rebel players stuck in this loop:

Rebel: "So how do I handle this with Ackbar?"

Me: "You don't. At least not with conventional Ackbar."

Rebel: "So you're saying I just need more Assault Frigates and Gunnery Teams, then?"

Me: "No, that is not at all what I am saying."

Rebel: "Oh, so more red dice ships and upgrades for even more red dice? I'll just keep shooting it with red dice."

Me: "No. You need something that's not Ackbar. The fleet won't stay in your best arcs. It's specifically designed to not do that."

Rebel: "Are you SURE I can't use Ackbar? I'll just shoot it with my whole fleet because reasons."

Me:"At any point in the game were you able to meaningfully shoot a ship with your whole fleet or even 2 ships?"

Rebel: "No... so how do I handle this with Ackbar?"

Wow intense discussion

(What have I done!)

Hahaha.... "Because....reasons". .

The problem I see, (and running this style to see if it's actuall pay a problem) is that all other list builds follow the game mechanic and can be countered directly.

E.g.

Lots of bombers --- counter --- anti squadrons

Lots of red dice ---- counter ---- speedy avoid long range

Slow hull monsters ----- counter ----- long range bleeding

Swarms --- counter ----- survivable counter strikes

Etc....etc... (These are just typical examples and not exhaustive)

The problem lies, that there is NO direct counter to demos special. You can mitigate the damage....setup to trade pieces...fork it.... Smother with squads...etc..etc.. The point remains that there is absolutely nothing one can do to actuall stop or counter its shoot move shoot shoot shoot move. (Besides bidding 40)

In my gaming experience, this typifies an "overpowered" , "under costed" ability. I would pay 40 points for demo. And / or bid that high. It's that game breaking paradigm.

I know there's opposite opinions and that is totally fine. Everyone is free to them . Just discussing my experiences with demo/activation/bid list and its ability to pretty much roll over lists with little effort. (Again...not a brag or casting aspersions on opponents...just observable facts)

Squadrons with Rogue do heavy lifting against a the Demolisher it seems. Anecdotally Han and Dash potted one that came in after it took a few shots of long range fire that depleted token’s and shields before it complete a run.

I do think rogues are a good potential answer, but they really have to be in mass (50 points in Han and Dash counts as massed squadrons in my mind ) combined with a fast threat out front to supplement their damage. Which is pretty tough to get out there before Demolisher is all up in your business.

I doubt that its feasible to do much of a first strike with Squadrons. It would seem that its much more likely that you allow the Demolisher to come in and get a Tap in.. then you destroy it during squadron turn. 96 points is 6 YT2400's. That can easily put 6 black dice into a Demolisher that just started a Tap.

Squadrons with Rogue do heavy lifting against a the Demolisher it seems. Anecdotally Han and Dash potted one that came in after it took a few shots of long range fire that depleted token’s and shields before it complete a run.

I do think rogues are a good potential answer, but they really have to be in mass (50 points in Han and Dash counts as massed squadrons in my mind ) combined with a fast threat out front to supplement their damage. Which is pretty tough to get out there before Demolisher is all up in your business.

I doubt that its feasible to do much of a first strike with Squadrons. It would seem that its much more likely that you allow the Demolisher to come in and get a Tap in.. then you destroy it during squadron turn. 96 points is 6 YT2400's. That can easily put 6 black dice into a Demolisher that just started a Tap.

I've done experiments using 8 YT-2400's: the problem is they can just barely keep up with demo and are a non-answer as soon as instigator or tie fighters are in the mix. Also, if you reveal a dial and click on the first segment, you can use your turn to effectively go faster than you otherwise ought to be able to and burn these dudes.

I've also done an experiment running 6 scuurgs and Jan. In this scenario, you need really, really good placement to be able to shoot in the squad phase and it limits your own movement so much it's not really worth it. Commanding them makes it work slightly better, but you can get outrun in one turn (so it's all or nothing on that strike). What this setup can do is work as very potent area denial, but again, that's 115 points tied up in blocking.

I can't imagine hitting Demo with anything heavier than that.

Rieekan CR90B's with SW7's counter Demo. They will die, but will do improportionate damage to Demo on the way out.

Rieekan alone prevents Demo from ramming as, Demo will have to consider its escape path rather than just blasting through.

With my fleet, the question isnt how do I beat Demo, its how do I beat red dice chuckers. Fortunately, Demo has made the red dice chuckers so scared that they are all running Demo fleets. Its marvellous.

Rieekan CR90B's with SW7's counter Demo. They will die, but will do improportionate damage to Demo on the way out.

Welcome to the brotherhood, SW90B brother!!

It does, if you out-bid Demo. Otherwise, any competent pilot will just keep Demo from getting focused and bounce around stomping your corvettes one at a time. Not saying you can't beat it without outbidding it, but it's nontrivial.

Squadrons with Rogue do heavy lifting against a the Demolisher it seems. Anecdotally Han and Dash potted one that came in after it took a few shots of long range fire that depleted token’s and shields before it complete a run.

I do think rogues are a good potential answer, but they really have to be in mass (50 points in Han and Dash counts as massed squadrons in my mind ) combined with a fast threat out front to supplement their damage. Which is pretty tough to get out there before Demolisher is all up in your business.

I doubt that its feasible to do much of a first strike with Squadrons. It would seem that its much more likely that you allow the Demolisher to come in and get a Tap in.. then you destroy it during squadron turn. 96 points is 6 YT2400's. That can easily put 6 black dice into a Demolisher that just started a Tap.

This is true, but see a few pages back (if you dare!) to find a breakdown of how many squadrons Demolisher can weather before going down.

It's a lot. Thanks to rogue, YT-2400's are slightly better at this than TIE Bombers or Y-wings--even pre-positioned ones--but you're still looking at ~8 YT-2400 shots before you can reasonably expect to take it down unsupported.

One thing I've inadvertently done, and which I think has been mentioned deep in the text of some longer previous posts, is to interpose a cheap ship between Demo and its likely target. Demo will blow it up but since it's just gone first it can't pull its shenanigan for another turn, and you hopefully have ships/squads in place to take it out.

CR90's (even non Rieekan) and Nebs are Suitable Mobile Barriers for this...though it's admittedly hard to pull off.

It's a lot. Thanks to rogue, YT-2400's are slightly better at this than TIE Bombers or Y-wings--even pre-positioned ones--but you're still looking at ~8 YT-2400 shots before you can reasonably expect to take it down unsupported.

The rogues get two bites before the big attack goes off. So with 4 and Han you may with careful application of Intel get those attacks. If you have Han I think you want to save his double tap for the turn your opponent attacks as to avoid not quite getting the killing shot in and then taking the full triple tap.

The rogues get two bites before the big attack goes off. So with 4 and Han you may with careful application of Intel get those attacks. If you have Han I think you want to save his double tap for the turn your opponent attacks as to avoid not quite getting the killing shot in and then taking the full triple tap.

They might get two bites, if you can get them out front fast and clean enough for the first shot and then back in position for the second. Han is definitely not fast enough to do this; YT-2400's might be, but they'll likely be hitting the front shield on the first attack and the rear on the next, maximizing Demo's defenses against them and (at least somewhat) mitigating the advantage you gained by flinging them out there in the first place.

I do think rogues are part of the answer, but I'm not completely convinced. Here's why: in the game Dur linked a page or two back, you can see that Demo gets his first strike in at the end of turn 2/beginning of 3. This is normal. Sometimes that'll be 3/4 if you play your ships way in the backfield, but even so you're talking about having to get your fighters into combat range by the end of turn 1 (a stretch, but potentially doable), fighting off whatever fighter screen he has in place (possibly including Instigator) and getting in shots on Demo by the end of turn 2, so that you can pull them back to intercept the triple tap at the end of turn 3. If you delay committing your rogues, you're only getting one shot on Demo with them before the critical turn.

You're going to win that squadron fight eventually, probably... you just simply don't have the time to win it before Demolisher gets to your carrier/flagship/chin.

This is the thing that I think a lot of the suggestions here miss (not pointing yours out specifically, Aman, just generalizing here): if your solution is a direct "kill Demo" approach, but it doesn't work fast, it doesn't address the issue. Demolisher is going to die (in most cases)--it's just going to take something bigger or more important with it before it goes.

The answer will probably be flotillas.

Demo benefits by taking out high value targets. With 3 flotillas positioned so that demolisher must end up ramming a flotilla or landing outside of black dice range of its main target, it could nullify it's advantage. With flotillas having a scatter against black dice that can't lock down scatter, they will most likely survive it's attack and allow for the bigger target the flotillas are blocking for to do its part against demo.

It certainly won't be easy, but I do think it viable.

Cant scatter being rammed to death....and the rams wont hurt demo..

Cant scatter being rammed to death....and the rams wont hurt demo..

That's true, but positioned right they will allow you to stop Demo cold in a bad position, which is something we can't really do right now. Not with anything cheaper than Demolisher itself, anyway.

Demo ramming a flotilla to death isn't super effective, even if it doesn't take damage, because that still means he is stuck where he is after activating first, in a bad position. Intel Officer would be a more effective scatter shut down.

Hahaha.... "Because....reasons". .

The problem I see, (and running this style to see if it's actuall pay a problem) is that all other list builds follow the game mechanic and can be countered directly.

E.g.

Lots of bombers --- counter --- anti squadrons

Lots of red dice ---- counter ---- speedy avoid long range

Slow hull monsters ----- counter ----- long range bleeding

Swarms --- counter ----- survivable counter strikes

Etc....etc... (These are just typical examples and not exhaustive)

The problem lies, that there is NO direct counter to demos special. You can mitigate the damage....setup to trade pieces...fork it.... Smother with squads...etc..etc.. The point remains that there is absolutely nothing one can do to actuall stop or counter its shoot move shoot shoot shoot move. (Besides bidding 40)

In my gaming experience, this typifies an "overpowered" , "under costed" ability. I would pay 40 points for demo. And / or bid that high. It's that game breaking paradigm.

I know there's opposite opinions and that is totally fine. Everyone is free to them . Just discussing my experiences with demo/activation/bid list and its ability to pretty much roll over lists with little effort. (Again...not a brag or casting aspersions on opponents...just observable facts)

So you feel Rebels cannot build a 6 ship fleet, 2MC30's and 4 Corvettes, and outbid the Imperial player? then go pop the Demolisher with a double tap?

I am almost positive they can do so, and a double tap with the right upgrades will kill Demolisher more often than not.

So yes the Rebels have a direct counter to Demolisher, out bid it and double tap it.

And yes it's not the best build in the world for facing double motti ISD's, but there again, neither is the standard 5 ship Imperial.

MC30 : OE : APT : X-17

MC30 : OE : APT : X-17

CR90 A : TRC

CR90 A : TRC

CR90 A : TRC

CR90 B : Mon Mothma

378pts.

I didn't look and see if Imperials can get 1 Demolisher and 5 raiders, and be under 378pts, but I don't think they can.