It's all in the quality of the play not a 10 point upgrade card.

So a 134 (minimum) point ship, completely optimized against this particular threat in a way that, btw, is largely neutered against many popular fleets (I'd rather not get into XI7/AP again), has a chance of not being one-shotted by a much cheaper, much more flexible and widely-useful ship... And everything's okay, nothing to see here?

Seriously?

Yep that is exactly fine, because this fleet came about due to Ackbar/HomeOne/TRC.

Remind me again which Rebel ships don't get played? Remind me which Rebel ships get told "always take ECM" or "Don't take that version it has no slot for ECM"

Remind me which Rebel ship gets several threads "VSD still useful/redundant/etc?" because it became a total and utter point pinata for the no brace trc spam fleets.

Remind me which is still the most popular Rebel Admiral at tournaments, which is the most used TL upgrade card.

And I'm sorry man, but adding Advanced Projectors is all you need to do to have your MC80 survive a Demolisher triple tap, that is hardly building your entire fleet to counter a threat, because what do you not see in an Imperial 5 ship fleet?

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You guessed right! X-17 Turbolasers.

I think we need to regroup on this thread.

TheEasternKing have you encountered the list (Stacked Demo with 5 activations) yet?

In my experience it is trouble and the original issue that Shmitty was trying to counter. It is very different than just a Demolisher in a "standard" list.

I don't think the Demolisher title is the real problem. Intel Officer is the real problem. Normally you don't get any accuracies on the high damage black dice. Intel Off adds another 6 to 9 dam over those 2 turns of shooting. even if the target survives the onslaught, it is left defenceless with no brace token. Intel Officer is way to cheap for what it dos

Then your dice app is broken, as it doesn't seem to represent the fact you have the same chance of going to no damage, as you do increasing damage.

I don't think the probabilities work quite the way you think they do.

I understand the probabilities and chance, just fine thanks.

these guys are not talking about rerolling blanks into hits, which is a 75% chance of occurrence (great odds) they are talking about aggressively re-rolling dice that have a hit on them, to get a hit/crit.

Well you have a 25% of getting a hit/crit, and a 25% chance of getting a blank, that means you have an even chance of increasing your damage, or decreasing your damage.

But it's the same problem either way, just with different parameters.

If you reroll a blank, you have a 50% chance of rolling 1 damage, 25% of rolling 2, and 25% of not changing, for an average improvement of 1 damage. So of course it's always advantageous to reroll a blank.

If you reroll a single, you have the same odds, so it's not always advantageous to reroll it.

Consider the OE/Vader situation on 16 black dice. Assume your initial roll is exactly average:

B H H HC

B H H HC

B H H HC

B H H HC

You would reroll everything but the HC, fishing for more. That's 12 dice you're rerolling, each with 25-50-25 odds. Exactly average results would look like:

B H HC HC

B H HC HC

B H HC HC

H H H HC

Finally, you would reroll only the the blanks, again each with 25-50-25 odds, which would look like:

B H HC HC

H H HC HC

HC H HC HC

H H H HC

So you see, just because each individual die has constant odds on each successive roll, the intelligent choice to reroll or not reroll a given die based on whether it's a blank to begin with or not influences the overall outcome.

I think we need to regroup on this thread.

TheEasternKing have you encountered the list (Stacked Demo with 5 activations) yet?

In my experience it is trouble and the original issue that Shmitty was trying to counter. It is very different than just a Demolisher in a "standard" list.

I've run it yes, so I have seen how people react to it, I have seen what it's good against, what it is poor against.

I got beat by a MC80-Rieekan-AdarTallon-BoostedComms-AP-X-17 TL-Independence, Neb B Escort-Yavaris-Vet Captain, CR90 B-Tantive IV : Luke/Wedge/Dutch/Keyan/Jan/B-Wing-B-wing

I've lost twice to 2 ISD II Motti-Rhymer fleets.

People seem to be taking things in a bubble here, but games rarely work out the way you want them to, it's all well and good people making wild statements, but I play this, have played this, it is not unbeatable, it is not infallible, and there are no guarantees you will kill a full health big ship.

The other big thing is that Screed lets you aggressively re-roll fishing for that Hit/Crit as you can always cancel a blank and get a Hit/Crit. Vader as the commander for the fleet may let you save some points in not selecting OE but he is far riskier re-rolling regular hits.

Then your dice app is broken, as it doesn't seem to represent the fact you have the same chance of going to no damage, as you do increasing damage.

I don't think the probabilities work quite the way you think they do.

I understand the probabilities and chance, just fine thanks.

these guys are not talking about rerolling blanks into hits, which is a 75% chance of occurrence (great odds) they are talking about aggressively re-rolling dice that have a hit on them, to get a hit/crit.

Well you have a 25% of getting a hit/crit, and a 25% chance of getting a blank, that means you have an even chance of increasing your damage, or decreasing your damage.

But it's the same problem either way, just with different parameters.

If you reroll a blank, you have a 50% chance of rolling 1 damage, 25% of rolling 2, and 25% of not changing, for an average improvement of 1 damage. So of course it's always advantageous to reroll a blank.

If you reroll a single, you have the same odds, so it's not always advantageous to reroll it.

Consider the OE/Vader situation on 16 black dice. Assume your initial roll is exactly average:

B H H HC

B H H HC

B H H HC

B H H HC

You would reroll everything but the HC, fishing for more. That's 12 dice you're rerolling, each with 25-50-25 odds. Exactly average results would look like:

B H HC HC

B H HC HC

B H HC HC

H H H HC

Finally, you would reroll only the the blanks, again each with 25-50-25 odds, which would look like:

B H HC HC

H H HC HC

HC H HC HC

H H H HC

So you see, just because each individual die has constant odds on each successive roll, the intelligent choice to reroll or not reroll a given die based on whether it's a blank to begin with or not influences the overall outcome.

I know this is getting repetitive, because I'm getting quite tired of it myself.

They are not talking about re-rolling blanks, they are talking about re-rolling for hit/crits, it is obvious the odds of getting damage from a blank dice are 75% per roll, but and this is the important but! if you have 4 dice with hits on each of them and you chose to re-roll 2 of them, you have exactly the same odds of rolling 2 damage as you do getting 6 damage, something not being reflected in his dice app rolls.

And my whole point of contention was the blanket statement "I'll always kill a full health, full shield MC80 with AP on it, with my Demolisher/Intel/OE/ET/APT."

The dice do not support his claim, he needs maximum damage on all 3 attack rolls & a double ram, so the reality is he will not always kill that MC80, in fact nine times out of ten, that MC80 will live, and then Demolisher will die.

This is what drove me up the wall, coupled with the other posts he's made here and elsewhere, stating that because Demolisher will always kill a ship (It will not) it is in fact broken, breaks the paradigms of game play, and needs fixing.

Yes it is a powerful upgrade, not it is not broken, anymore than giving your entire fleet an Accuracy on every single shot they make for 7pts, thus negating seven out of eight imperial ships brace token, for the entire match.

It's all in the quality of the play not a 10 point upgrade card.

So a 134 (minimum) point ship, completely optimized against this particular threat in a way that, btw, is largely neutered against many popular fleets (I'd rather not get into XI7/AP again), has a chance of not being one-shotted by a much cheaper, much more flexible and widely-useful ship... And everything's okay, nothing to see here?

Seriously?

Yep that is exactly fine, because this fleet came about due to Ackbar/HomeOne/TRC.

Remind me again which Rebel ships don't get played? Remind me which Rebel ships get told "always take ECM" or "Don't take that version it has no slot for ECM"

Remind me which Rebel ship gets several threads "VSD still useful/redundant/etc?" because it became a total and utter point pinata for the no brace trc spam fleets.

Remind me which is still the most popular Rebel Admiral at tournaments, which is the most used TL upgrade card.

And I'm sorry man, but adding Advanced Projectors is all you need to do to have your MC80 survive a Demolisher triple tap, that is hardly building your entire fleet to counter a threat, because what do you not see in an Imperial 5 ship fleet?

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You guessed right! X-17 Turbolasers.

Great biting point at the end there--that's exactly what I said: AP is uniquely useful against that build, explicitly because it doesn't have XI7.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to get at here. That rebel ships are good? That Ackbar is good*? Where did that bit about the VSD even come from? This just turning into faction mudslinging here, which is pretty useless.

*He's not. There was ONE Ackbar player (out of 16 or so) at the last two SC's here, and he got crushed.

It's all in the quality of the play not a 10 point upgrade card.

So a 134 (minimum) point ship, completely optimized against this particular threat in a way that, btw, is largely neutered against many popular fleets (I'd rather not get into XI7/AP again), has a chance of not being one-shotted by a much cheaper, much more flexible and widely-useful ship... And everything's okay, nothing to see here?

Seriously?

I was answering the question can an MC80 reliably survive a triple hit from Demo, and therefore can you use that surviverability as part of a strategy to out play a Demo fleet with higher activations than you.... Yes Demo is a powerful option but so are a number of other ships if played right and used with a fleet, yes if you could make up a fleet of Demos it would be broken, but you can't.

Am I bothered that demo is good...... No because I can and do win against demos fleets, I also lose but it's a game with two players.

I personally think yavaris is the most stupid cheap card in the game for what it does and when I get it right have had great fun gutting very expensive ships with a 62 point neb B and a couple of Fighters ( yes I play high activations and my fav play is to set a my Fighters to get two double taps and yavaris to get two front archs and a side arch.

Is yavaris broken....no....

I just think everyone needs to chill over Demo and play the game, it's just one little piece.

The other big thing is that Screed lets you aggressively re-roll fishing for that Hit/Crit as you can always cancel a blank and get a Hit/Crit. Vader as the commander for the fleet may let you save some points in not selecting OE but he is far riskier re-rolling regular hits.

Exactly, Screed allows you to risk that reroll and negate the effects of that blank.

Vader is a crap shoot, and yet people here all talk like he will always increase damage...he will if you rolled a load of blanks, he won't if you had damage, but wanted more.

They are not talking about re-rolling blanks, they are talking about re-rolling for hit/crits, it is obvious the odds of getting damage from a blank dice are 75% per roll, but and this is the important but! if you have 4 dice with hits on each of them and you chose to re-roll 2 of them, you have exactly the same odds of rolling 2 damage as you do getting 6 damage, something not being reflected in his dice app rolls.

And my whole point of contention was the blanket statement "I'll always kill a full health, full shield MC80 with AP on it, with my Demolisher/Intel/OE/ET/APT."

The dice do not support his claim, he needs maximum damage on all 3 attack rolls & a double ram, so the reality is he will not always kill that MC80, in fact nine times out of ten, that MC80 will live, and then Demolisher will die.

Go back and look again at the first set of rerolls I illustrated above. I rerolled hits specifically to show how selective rerolls can in fact increase your average damage even with rerolling hits.

It's all in the quality of the play not a 10 point upgrade card.

So a 134 (minimum) point ship, completely optimized against this particular threat in a way that, btw, is largely neutered against many popular fleets (I'd rather not get into XI7/AP again), has a chance of not being one-shotted by a much cheaper, much more flexible and widely-useful ship... And everything's okay, nothing to see here?

Seriously?

Yep that is exactly fine, because this fleet came about due to Ackbar/HomeOne/TRC.

Remind me again which Rebel ships don't get played? Remind me which Rebel ships get told "always take ECM" or "Don't take that version it has no slot for ECM"

Remind me which Rebel ship gets several threads "VSD still useful/redundant/etc?" because it became a total and utter point pinata for the no brace trc spam fleets.

Remind me which is still the most popular Rebel Admiral at tournaments, which is the most used TL upgrade card.

And I'm sorry man, but adding Advanced Projectors is all you need to do to have your MC80 survive a Demolisher triple tap, that is hardly building your entire fleet to counter a threat, because what do you not see in an Imperial 5 ship fleet?

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.

.

.

.

You guessed right! X-17 Turbolasers.

Great biting point at the end there--that's exactly what I said: AP is uniquely useful against that build, explicitly because it doesn't have XI7.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to get at here. That rebel ships are good? That Ackbar is good*? Where did that bit about the VSD even come from? This just turning into faction mudslinging here, which is pretty useless.

*He's not. There was ONE Ackbar player (out of 16 or so) at the last two SC's here, and he got crushed.

I dunno I thought it was pretty clear.

Does Demolisher cause Rebel players to not use ships?

Do Rebel players get continually told "You need ECM, or Else"

It is not faction mudslinging, it is a very valid point, Ackbar+Home one+TRC made VSD's vanish from the meta, and people not like running an ISD I , I have yet to see even one ship vanish due to Demolisher.

So we actually have a real example of something changing the game meta, and not in a good way, yet not one of you thinks this is anyway as bad as a triple tap from a single ship? its all hyperbole and wild speculation and misquoting.

I have a question for you, do you think I actually enjoy running a fleet with no Star Destroyers in it? because that is what Ackbar/HomeOne/TRC have driven me to, to be able to fight him and have a good chance of winning.

*sigh* Okay, let's re-hash it some more...

yes...the I left a ship out in the open and it got killed isn't an excuse. How is Demo getting a no problem land on you with double arc shot to the MC80 or any other big ship.

This is how. https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/203491-the-clonisher-an-analysis-of-threat-radius/page-1?hl=%20threat%20%20range

No small ships on flank protection?

Name a small ship that can both reliably one-shot Demolisher and be part of a 5+ activation fleet.

No swarm of squadrons for it to land into...

A GSD can take on average 10 TIE bomber/Y-wing shots, 8-9 Firespray shots, 6-7 B-Wing shots... Assuming they're all into the same arc. And keep in mind these are all un-activated, because he's jumping in after your ships are all activated.

no threat to some other ship that will be blown off the table if Demo activates before it does?

This is the tactic I'm working on, but no other ship trades up on anything like the same scale Demolisher does. Especially after losing your flagship, which is what Demo should be killing.

I set a trap...if he takes it Demo dies...if he doesn't then my ship didn't die....rinse repeat every turn. Against me this has meant Demo didn't get a shot all game.

Nobody's saying Demo won't die--probably, eventually. We're saying he's going to do so after killing your most important ship or ships. If that threat has been preventing your opponents from attacking with Demo, sounds like you may be playing against someone who uses it too timidly. Our with too few activations to support it.

I also remember my first time ever playing and got jumped by Yavaris B wings and didn't realize that power...eventually...I understood...now don't care about it.

Yavaris B-Wings is good. It is easily countered, and not particularly relevant.

I'll reiterate....Riekan...

Dead at the end of the round is still dead.

rogue squadrons....

Won't reliably save you. Hell, probably won't do anything to Demolisher before he's traded, if he brought even a modicum of fighters.

bidding....

Unreliable. My last SC saw two sub-380 bids with Demo builds.

your objectives....

There is no red objective that is not good for Demo and four raiders.

mutual supporting ships....

See above. This is not about whether demo will die, it's about the fact that he will kill literally any ship in the game before he does.

good navigating on your part....

Lol. Even a CR90 can't escape ET/Demo, dude. See the threat range discussion I linked above.

threatening other ships...

The only workable proposal I think. But again, you're starting at a deficit, because Demo will take out anything it chooses--which will invariably be your most important ship--before you get your counter-threatening shot off.

out activating.

You're calling for 6+ activations. Not everyone likes running swarms. And if you do, you're losing two of those ships to Demo, and it's very hard to trap Demolisher in such a way that you can kill it with swarms. I'm the Rieekan/CR90B/SW-7 swarm evangelist of the forum, and I've only just figured out how to stop Demo--and it will be easily countered as soon as Demo players start seeing me do it.

Those are all possible counters to Demo. And experienced players know how to kill him. Which shows when he dies about 50% of the time in my tournament games. Costing me 90+points.

Reiterating one more time: nobody thinks Demolisher won't die. But if someone offered you the opportunity, outside the context of this discussion, the ability to outright kill the ship of your choosing every game, how many points would that be worth to you? Because that's what Demolisher is.

No idea how to multi quote on here...

Your comment on rehashing...towards me is ironic as this topic (demo is OP) pops up every other day. People whine they can't beat him 1 ship vs 1 ship...the same people argue on both sides (myself included) then when it hits too many pages to bother reading...someone makes a new topic. I comment to help people understand how to beat Demo...that is all....if they got rid of him I couldn't care less, if they Nerf him couldn't care...I just know he can be mitigated through a combined effort of things I and others have mentioned in this and many other topics. But the counter argument is always 1 ship vs 1 ship. You don't win chess without losing a pawn.

So to rebut your rebuttals (LOL)

Understanding Demos capability is what I am reiterating, which that threat analysis shows perfectly to players when they have to start worrying about him. If you don't like your MC80 getting hit...put a small ship in the way of Demos path...sure it will die...but your MC80 didn't.. now Demo..is not in as good a position after he moves first...and your MC80...with all that red dice can whack him. Sure not a one shot...although with a an accuracy, ackbar and a good role it can happen. Overlapping fields of fire is key in this game to make any ship pay that jumps into your formation.

Everything you counter my argument is in a vacuum...IE can handle 10 ties...well is nothing else shooting at him ever? I know 6 YT2400s did me in with a shot from a rear MC80 at my last tournament. I got 1 shot off...I was way too aggressive against a really good player. He probably isn't spamming repairs. So he will limp off vs losing that 80+point ship.

I agree I don't like Riekan either...but when the ship doesn't disappear it wreaks havoc with your movement

Again bidding in a vacuum...if they are bidding that low then a strong 400 point list will do good. (I do think that 2 ship builds don't give any fleet enough flexibility or overlapping fire.(as one blocks the other)) And every list out activates you.

Red Objectives...I am not a fan of facing Advanced Gunnery when it is on a MC80....most wanted as they always pick my demolisher, which makes it die quicker...opening salvo I just refuse to outright take no matter what list I face. And precision strike I won't take as I have no bombers, and flipping crits on small ships is death.

Yellow Objectives...I hope they took fleet ambush or hyperspace assault as that is the least dangerous to a demo list. And blue is usually the go to...but it depends on their fleet.

As for it killing any ship in the game before he gets killed....so....make that ship a crappy Corvette...again not leaving your 150 point monster out in the open for it to be jumped on by Demo.. If anyone thinks they can reliably play this game and not sacrifice a pawn to win, hats off to them.

Navigating again...not in a vacuum. Your fleet has to navigate in sync...not ram...not hit asteroids...not be vulnerable to be picked apart...this is a fleet game...not 1 vs 1. I have spent a lot of time maneuvering my ships around my kitchen table to figure this out and how ships move together (especially different ships).

And again. I have played games against great players where my Demo never got a shot off as there was no good jump ins...that wouldn't put demo at risk after he moved at the beginning of next turn. It was quite frustrating but they did everything they were supposed to do....weak ships on flanks where demo is coming...squadrons where he will likely end up...overlapping fields of fire to pummel demo...cause once he moves first ...he is a sitting duck.

I've killed things with an ISD2, ISD1, GSD, AF2, MC80, MC30 all by going last (they come into red range....shoot...move up to whatever range I need for all my dice to shoot....have a good double arc (why I spam Nav Commands) and at the beginning of the turn unload. That is the power of activations....and you only need the same number of activations to out activate Demo...as your last ship will go last after Demo moves...Activations has been the issue ever since the GenCon special...A double tap from the stronger ships...is just as good as a triple tap from a loaded up Demo.

My best example of this last statement was against a really good player playing a 3 VSD 15 or so squadron list....eventually he closed with my ISD2 into blue range...no choice otherwise he would have had to stop. (gunnery teams. I fired off did really good damage.....then when I jumped in I had both ships in front arc, I think I might have rammed one as well. I opened up and between leading shots and accuracies I killed them both that turn.

Demo on a blank GSD...not that strong....on a 90+point monster (almost doubling its cost) yes it is very good. And a no brainer. But it is how activations work in this game that is the issue...but if you change activations to the take turns approach...then you should get rid of objectives.. Ironically I have not seen a tournament playing with that set of optional rules yet

They are not talking about re-rolling blanks, they are talking about re-rolling for hit/crits, it is obvious the odds of getting damage from a blank dice are 75% per roll, but and this is the important but! if you have 4 dice with hits on each of them and you chose to re-roll 2 of them, you have exactly the same odds of rolling 2 damage as you do getting 6 damage, something not being reflected in his dice app rolls.

And my whole point of contention was the blanket statement "I'll always kill a full health, full shield MC80 with AP on it, with my Demolisher/Intel/OE/ET/APT."

The dice do not support his claim, he needs maximum damage on all 3 attack rolls & a double ram, so the reality is he will not always kill that MC80, in fact nine times out of ten, that MC80 will live, and then Demolisher will die.

Go back and look again at the first set of rerolls I illustrated above. I rerolled hits specifically to show how selective rerolls can in fact increase your average damage even with rerolling hits.

Are you not grasping what I am saying here? or being deliberately obtuse?

Yes a re-roll can result in more damage?

Yes a re-roll can result in less damage?

Both of them statements are true when re-rolling a black dice with a hit on it, you have a 50% chance of getting the same result, and 25% of getting more damage, and 25% of getting no damage.

His dice app, only seems to increase damage, well guess what? that is a broken dice app, and all random number generators are not random, to date no one has managed to program an accurate random dice rolling program.

Squadrons with Rogue do heavy lifting against a the Demolisher it seems. Anecdotally Han and Dash potted one that came in after it took a few shots of long range fire that depleted token’s and shields before it complete a run.

Someone's angry

It's all in the quality of the play not a 10 point upgrade card.

So a 134 (minimum) point ship, completely optimized against this particular threat in a way that, btw, is largely neutered against many popular fleets (I'd rather not get into XI7/AP again), has a chance of not being one-shotted by a much cheaper, much more flexible and widely-useful ship... And everything's okay, nothing to see here?

Seriously?

Yep that is exactly fine, because this fleet came about due to Ackbar/HomeOne/TRC.

Remind me again which Rebel ships don't get played? Remind me which Rebel ships get told "always take ECM" or "Don't take that version it has no slot for ECM"

Remind me which Rebel ship gets several threads "VSD still useful/redundant/etc?" because it became a total and utter point pinata for the no brace trc spam fleets.

Remind me which is still the most popular Rebel Admiral at tournaments, which is the most used TL upgrade card.

And I'm sorry man, but adding Advanced Projectors is all you need to do to have your MC80 survive a Demolisher triple tap, that is hardly building your entire fleet to counter a threat, because what do you not see in an Imperial 5 ship fleet?

.

.

.

.

.

.

You guessed right! X-17 Turbolasers.

Great biting point at the end there--that's exactly what I said: AP is uniquely useful against that build, explicitly because it doesn't have XI7.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to get at here. That rebel ships are good? That Ackbar is good*? Where did that bit about the VSD even come from? This just turning into faction mudslinging here, which is pretty useless.

*He's not. There was ONE Ackbar player (out of 16 or so) at the last two SC's here, and he got crushed.

I dunno I thought it was pretty clear.

Does Demolisher cause Rebel players to not use ships?

Do Rebel players get continually told "You need ECM, or Else"

It is not faction mudslinging, it is a very valid point, Ackbar+Home one+TRC made VSD's vanish from the meta, and people not like running an ISD I...

...I have yet to see even one ship vanish due to Demolisher.

So we actually have a real example of something changing the game meta, and not in a good way, yet not one of you thinks this is anyway as bad as a triple tap from a single ship?

its all hyperbole and wild speculation and misquoting.

I have a question for you, do you think I actually enjoy running a fleet with no Star Destroyers in it? because that is what Ackbar/HomeOne/TRC have driven me to, to be able to fight him and have a good chance of winning.

They are not talking about re-rolling blanks, they are talking about re-rolling for hit/crits, it is obvious the odds of getting damage from a blank dice are 75% per roll, but and this is the important but! if you have 4 dice with hits on each of them and you chose to re-roll 2 of them, you have exactly the same odds of rolling 2 damage as you do getting 6 damage, something not being reflected in his dice app rolls.

And my whole point of contention was the blanket statement "I'll always kill a full health, full shield MC80 with AP on it, with my Demolisher/Intel/OE/ET/APT."

The dice do not support his claim, he needs maximum damage on all 3 attack rolls & a double ram, so the reality is he will not always kill that MC80, in fact nine times out of ten, that MC80 will live, and then Demolisher will die.

Go back and look again at the first set of rerolls I illustrated above. I rerolled hits specifically to show how selective rerolls can in fact increase your average damage even with rerolling hits.

Are you not grasping what I am saying here? or being deliberately obtuse?

Yes a re-roll can result in more damage?

Yes a re-roll can result in less damage?

Both of them statements are true when re-rolling a black dice with a hit on it, you have a 50% chance of getting the same result, and 25% of getting more damage, and 25% of getting no damage.

His dice app, only seems to increase damage, well guess what? that is a broken dice app, and all random number generators are not random, to date no one has managed to program an accurate random dice rolling program.

My illustration had no randomness. It was exact averages. It has nothing to do with a dice rolling app or randomness, it's pretty basic stats.

And I'm done arguing with you at the expense of potential progress in this thread. Sorry you're mad.

Squadrons with Rogue do heavy lifting against a the Demolisher it seems. Anecdotally Han and Dash potted one that came in after it took a few shots of long range fire that depleted token’s and shields before it complete a run.

I do think rogues are a good potential answer, but they really have to be in mass (50 points in Han and Dash counts as massed squadrons in my mind ) combined with a fast threat out front to supplement their damage. Which is pretty tough to get out there before Demolisher is all up in your business.

They are not talking about re-rolling blanks, they are talking about re-rolling for hit/crits, it is obvious the odds of getting damage from a blank dice are 75% per roll, but and this is the important but! if you have 4 dice with hits on each of them and you chose to re-roll 2 of them, you have exactly the same odds of rolling 2 damage as you do getting 6 damage, something not being reflected in his dice app rolls.

And my whole point of contention was the blanket statement "I'll always kill a full health, full shield MC80 with AP on it, with my Demolisher/Intel/OE/ET/APT."

The dice do not support his claim, he needs maximum damage on all 3 attack rolls & a double ram, so the reality is he will not always kill that MC80, in fact nine times out of ten, that MC80 will live, and then Demolisher will die.

Go back and look again at the first set of rerolls I illustrated above. I rerolled hits specifically to show how selective rerolls can in fact increase your average damage even with rerolling hits.

Are you not grasping what I am saying here? or being deliberately obtuse?

Yes a re-roll can result in more damage?

Yes a re-roll can result in less damage?

Both of them statements are true when re-rolling a black dice with a hit on it, you have a 50% chance of getting the same result, and 25% of getting more damage, and 25% of getting no damage.

His dice app, only seems to increase damage, well guess what? that is a broken dice app, and all random number generators are not random, to date no one has managed to program an accurate random dice rolling program.

My illustration had no randomness. It was exact averages. It has nothing to do with a dice rolling app or randomness, it's pretty basic stats.

And I'm done arguing with you at the expense of potential progress in this thread. Sorry you're mad.

I'm mad because I think you cannot claim you can always kill an MC80, when it requires you to roll max damage?

Ok mate.

My entire point was average rolls, will not kill said MC80, and even with 2 rerolls, you are most of the time going to get an average result of 5-6 damage.

But I dunno wtf you think I am trying to claim.

You ain't the only one getting pissed off around here.

Edited to add : Nice dodge on avoiding Ackbar/HomeOne/TRC actually changing the meta, and it causing VSDs to vanish.

I run a Rieekan MC80 with Advanced Gunnery for a very good reason. I dont care what fleet you bring, you wont like me or my objectives.

Could we all step back and just agree

1) Demo is a great ship and when played well is hard to beat.

2) having last and first activation is super cool and makes some ships very nasty indeed

3) you can win a tournament with both imps or rebels if you have the experience and play well.

4) and most importantly Armada is not x wing and there is no "killa" meta or useless models ( although some are niche)

Good luck with that.

Could we all step back and just agree

1) Demo is a great ship and when played well is hard to beat.

2) having last and first activation is super cool and makes some ships very nasty indeed

3) you can win a tournament with both imps or rebels if you have the experience and play well.

4) and most importantly Armada is not x wing and there is no "killa" meta or useless models ( although some are niche)

Of course I can get on board with this, it is what I have been trying to say all along.

Could we all step back and just agree

1) Demo is a great ship and when played well is hard to beat.

2) having last and first activation is super cool and makes some ships very nasty indeed

3) you can win a tournament with both imps or rebels if you have the experience and play well.

4) and most importantly Armada is not x wing and there is no "killa" meta or useless models ( although some are niche)

All true, but what do you want to talk about instead?