We all seem to Fight the Futile Fights, eh, Snipafist?

I confess to tilting at windmills from time to time .

To add one more thing that had occurred to me as a means of countering the triple-tap:

As I have mentioned before, the Clonisher-style fleets are a meta reaction primarily to the Ackbar/Fat Motti lists I'm still seeing everywhere. These fleets both use a common set of upgrades on their slower/less maneuverable medium and large ships:

• ECMs do nearly nothing to Clonisher-style fleets, as they're not relying on Accuracy at all and will sometimes feature 3+ Intel Officers.
• Gunnery Teams rarely get two targets in one arc (and even then, the target(s) are often at long range so Evades are more useful for the defender).
• XI7s don't do anything against Raiders and are only useful against Gladiators at closer range where some combination of Evade and/or Brace won't bring the damage down to 2 or less anyways.

These upgrades are all geared towards winning slugging matches against other medium-to-large ships. "Okay," you may say, imaginary reader, "what does that have to do with anything?" Well, impatient reader, I would like to note how effective some alternatives would be in the same slots:

• Advanced Projectors are substantially better than ECMs against a Clonisher-style fleet. I regularly destroy ships with the opposite shield zone completely full. The ECMS do nothing when I'm not relying on Accuracy icons, but the extra 2-4 hit points of ablative armor from tokens that you get duplicates of on many ships would have absolutely saved the life of whatever ship I pounced on.
• Any kind of weapons team that improves your offensive output is generally superior against Clonisher-style fleets than Gunnery Teams for the reason I gave above. Sensor Teams would actually be an improvement (what?!?), because being able to lock down 2+ defense tokens even at long range (against Gladiators aim for the Brace and Evade, against Raiders lock down both Evades unless one has already been spent, then force the tough choice) can push damage through, sometimes spectacularly.
• Heavy Turbolaser Turrets are much more useful against Gladiators than XI7s (who love to combine Brace with Evade and/or Redirect, especially at longer ranges) than XI7s, and they actually do something against Raiders (who frequently Evade+Brace). Even H9 Turbolaser Turrets (for the same lolwhut reasons as Sensor Teams, above) would be superior. So are Turbolaser Reroute Circuits - if you can get enough high-value dice in the pool, the Clonisher-style ships can't Evade them all and that can add up.

Now this is not to say that you should change up all of your upgrades right now (I realize you're still teching against other Ackbar/Fat Motti fleets), but I might consider changing some of them if you're concerned about Clonisher-style fleets. I would strongly recommend avoiding conventional Ackbar conga line lists, though, regardless of what you do with your upgrades. Clonisher-style fleets eat those for breakfast.

My issue with the Demolisher is it breaks the one thing that sets Armada apart from most other miniatures I have played and that is the shoot than move mechanic. I am not arguing that there are not good upgrades for the Rebels but I rarely if ever see a decent imperial build without it. I see lots of builds without Ackbar, TRCs, Dodonna and even Rhymer.

And yet I've been to plenty of Tournaments where most Imperials were running Motti and dual ISD lists, the odd man out had Screed/Gladiator.

There are many many good builds that do not require a Demolisher to function efficiently, that can win without a Demolisher.

The day I turn up to a Tournament and every single Imperial has a 5 ship Demolisher fleet, is the day I say OK perhaps this does need looking at, as it stands there are many varied builds capable of winning games. As it stands Ackbar with TRC are pretty much the staple of every Rebel fleet I see in tournaments, yet Ackbar and TRC are fine?

community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/203491-the-clonisher-an-analysis-of-threat-radius

deja vu! Cheers mates, hope y'all think of something other than saying "ye skillz be not mad enough and I bite my thumb at thee!"

While there are other pretty tough combos out there, I think the clonisher tripple tap has the added advantage of simply being demoralizing. Some definite shock and awe tactics otherwise not possible with fireballs, ackbar, or anything else in the game at the moment.

A summary of the above thread: either count on the Demolisher pilot being retarded and flying into your delicious firepower/bombers, or take Rieekan, or underbid. I.e. not anything particularly useful

I read it, yes Demolisher is powerful, but its no more powerful than several other combos out there, and that is the truth of the matter.

As Snipafist said, the 5 ship Imperial came about because Ackbar made it absolute suicide to try standard Imperial play with ISD/VSD ships, so much so VSDs virtually vanished from competitive play, and are only now making an appearance in non standard fleet builds.

I added tractor beams to both of my ISDs with the intent of slowing the Gladiator down, even if they use Wulff Yularen for constant nav tokens. I have not had a chance to play against a demolisher since then though

Believe it or not, I had a Victory survive a Demolisher tripple-tap recently. This was a Demo running ACMs with Engine Techs, ordnance Experts, and an Intel Officer. He drove it right between my VSD-I and ISD-I and lived with one hull point. My Motti VSD-I (his tripple-tap target) was down to 4 hull left, and I was able to repair back up. He decided not to swing his Demo back for a second shot because one more hit and he'd be done for.

So, I guess for whatever it's worth, I learned two lessons coming out of this. The first is having higher health is one way to stop a Demolisher list, because sure a Demo can make a run on an ISD or something heavy but it won't throw enough of a tantrum to kill the big ships in round of attacking. Especially if there's no way for the GSD to clear in a single speed 3 movement (and if it can, then usually it's facing away?).

The second lesson is that the Demolisher should have another ship nearby to take advantage of the carnage caused by the Demolisher. In spite of solo-mauling a VSD with ACMs, it would have been disasterous had my opponent lead in with another ship. But my ISD was scaring off his Raiders from getting in too close, and he didn't hook back around with the Demolisher after that run because he was sitting at 1 health and facing ISD and VSD batteries.

Great discussion here, but why all the hate for bidding to go first?

It's an integral part of the game, and nowhere in the rules does it say that "20 points is a crrrrrrazy bid that you will not exceed." I see bidding as simply another fascinating element to list construction.

At some point, the bid WILL become a distinct disadvantage against a full 400 point list. Finding out how much you're willing to handicap yourself as insurance against Demolisher is a very interesting process. Why not explore it as a viable option?

Not to disagree, but the only ship that can survive a "properly executed" demolisher run, is a motti isd. Anything with 6 or less hull to start auto dies. 8 and above requires almost mild damage. The 14 hull isd is doable, but not a guarantee.

Not theory craft or math, but 23 tournament game experience with it.

Not to disagree, but the only ship that can survive a "properly executed" demolisher run, is a motti isd. Anything with 6 or less hull to start auto dies. 8 and above requires almost mild damage. The 14 hull isd is doable, but not a guarantee.

Not theory craft or math, but 23 tournament game experience with it.

Just purely curious - wondering, even - have you taken on an MC80 Assault Cruiser with both ECMs and APs in that time, Mike?

My issue with the Demolisher is it breaks the one thing that sets Armada apart from most other miniatures I have played and that is the shoot than move mechanic. I am not arguing that there are not good upgrades for the Rebels but I rarely if ever see a decent imperial build without it. I see lots of builds without Ackbar, TRCs, Dodonna and even Rhymer.

And yet I've been to plenty of Tournaments where most Imperials were running Motti and dual ISD lists, the odd man out had Screed/Gladiator.

There are many many good builds that do not require a Demolisher to function efficiently, that can win without a Demolisher.

The day I turn up to a Tournament and every single Imperial has a 5 ship Demolisher fleet, is the day I say OK perhaps this does need looking at, as it stands there are many varied builds capable of winning games. As it stands Ackbar with TRC are pretty much the staple of every Rebel fleet I see in tournaments, yet Ackbar and TRC are fine?

Actually, yes I think Ackbar and TRCs are fine because in our area they get crushed.

Dras - yup, several. Mc80 is a piece of cake. Only two damage from "shooting" has to make it thru with 11 black and 4'red. Pretty simple.

The 14 hull is tricky. The rolls on damage have to be well above average. But not out of possible.

Ecm does nothing to demo. Ap is moderately useful, but won't save an mc80

My issue with the Demolisher is it breaks the one thing that sets Armada apart from most other miniatures I have played and that is the shoot than move mechanic. I am not arguing that there are not good upgrades for the Rebels but I rarely if ever see a decent imperial build without it. I see lots of builds without Ackbar, TRCs, Dodonna and even Rhymer.

And yet I've been to plenty of Tournaments where most Imperials were running Motti and dual ISD lists, the odd man out had Screed/Gladiator.

There are many many good builds that do not require a Demolisher to function efficiently, that can win without a Demolisher.

The day I turn up to a Tournament and every single Imperial has a 5 ship Demolisher fleet, is the day I say OK perhaps this does need looking at, as it stands there are many varied builds capable of winning games. As it stands Ackbar with TRC are pretty much the staple of every Rebel fleet I see in tournaments, yet Ackbar and TRC are fine?

Actually, yes I think Ackbar and TRCs are fine because in our area they get crushed.

So Ackbar adding 2 red dice to every ship in the fleet, Home One allowing every ship in range gets a free Accuracy, and TRC guarantee 2 damage, upping average damage to 4 with an Accuracy, on a cheap ship at all effective firing ranges, seven of eight Imperial ships cannot take ECM meaning no braces is not as powerful as a single ship being able to fire once after it moves? it is that powerful it's changed Imperial Meta.

So I don't accept because in your local area they get crushed, I'm not even sure what you feel that adds for validity, Ackbar is still by far the most popular Rebel Admiral at tournaments, and TRC's are the most used upgrade on Rebel ships with him.

Interesting. Mathmatically, I thought it might, given the additional Shields it makes you plough through - that's all...

But I'll of course, bow to the experience.

Not with Intel officer, oe and Vader

Just one of those things where my head went "If a Motti ISD has a chance, then an AP MC80 should..."

I mean, it HAS a chance.... But I've yet to see one live.

Prolly the second best probability next to motti isd

Just one of those things where my head went "If a Motti ISD has a chance, then an AP MC80 should..."

I'm curious as to what the odds get to be like with Lando on board. It's a lot of contingencies with math, of course, and I'm sure it depends on exactly how the Demolisher is kitted out. I've seen Lando save the bacon of a few ships when they really should've been space dust. Dude is underrated.

Dras - yup, several. Mc80 is a piece of cake. Only two damage from "shooting" has to make it thru with 11 black and 4'red. Pretty simple.

The 14 hull is tricky. The rolls on damage have to be well above average. But not out of possible.

Ecm does nothing to demo. Ap is moderately useful, but won't save an mc80

Of course you always roll max damage?

Average damage with ACM will be 7 from side, then 7 from side, then 6 from front, by my maths that means that MC80 with AP on it has no shields and 2 health left.

I dunno how you can just state categorically you will always kill one, when the truth of the matter, you are rolling dice, which means sometimes you will roll low, "normal" and high, meaning alive, alive, dead.

Apt plus ramming. Dead mc80

Just speaking from experience. I also agree that demo is way under costed and changes the mechanics paradigm too much. People just haven't fully caught up to its power and the way to run it. IMO it beats every list with a modicum of skill.

Snip,

Haven't faced lando except once. And it was very powerful. People do not give him credit. He can literally keep a ship alive to continue the fight

While there are other pretty tough combos out there, I think the clonisher tripple tap has the added advantage of simply being demoralizing. Some definite shock and awe tactics otherwise not possible with fireballs, ackbar, or anything else in the game at the moment.

A summary of the above thread: either count on the Demolisher pilot being retarded and flying into your delicious firepower/bombers, or take Rieekan, or underbid. I.e. not anything particularly useful

Another simply demoralizing event is spending your time attempting to help others only to have it derided as a "useless" parody of what you actually said.

Apologies for the ambiguity- I meant my thread was useless. Go internet!

I appreciate the discussion as I think I've exhausted my own thoughts and appreciate all of y'all thinking about it.

Great discussion here, but why all the hate for bidding to go first?

It's an integral part of the game, and nowhere in the rules does it say that "20 points is a crrrrrrazy bid that you will not exceed." I see bidding as simply another fascinating element to list construction.

At some point, the bid WILL become a distinct disadvantage against a full 400 point list. Finding out how much you're willing to handicap yourself as insurance against Demolisher is a very interesting process. Why not explore it as a viable option?

I'm not a fan of the bidding aspect in armada or X-wing (to put it mildly). I don't find it interesting in the slightest to waste build points on a pure guess in the hope that no one else will bid lower. I don't bother with bidding, and if that means I will be second player every game I accept it and plan accordingly.

Apologies for the ambiguity- I meant my thread was useless. Go internet!

I appreciate the discussion as I think I've exhausted my own thoughts and appreciate all of y'all thinking about it.

Ah, my bad. Ambiguity on the internet?!? No way! In that case, please accept my apology as I have accepted yours in turn.

Snip,

Haven't faced lando except once. And it was very powerful. People do not give him credit. He can literally keep a ship alive to continue the fight

Lando is legit. He won't always be the MVP of a given game but on a titled MC30 (particularly under Mon Mothma) or on a larger ship you expect to receive a lot of attention he can be a crucial one-use upgrade. My buddy likes to compare him to Leading Shots on larger ships - he's 4 points you won't always need or use, but when you need it, you NEED it and it can make or break the game.

The second lesson is that the Demolisher should have another ship nearby to take advantage of the carnage caused by the Demolisher. In spite of solo-mauling a VSD with ACMs, it would have been disasterous had my opponent lead in with another ship. But my ISD was scaring off his Raiders from getting in too close, and he didn't hook back around with the Demolisher after that run because he was sitting at 1 health and facing ISD and VSD batteries.

I find that having follow-up ships running picket behind Demolisher can help for this kind of thing. I usually need to make an extra pass with a backup Gladiator if Demolisher can't handle a particularly tough target all by himself.

Just one of those things where my head went "If a Motti ISD has a chance, then an AP MC80 should..."

I'm curious as to what the odds get to be like with Lando on board. It's a lot of contingencies with math, of course, and I'm sure it depends on exactly how the Demolisher is kitted out. I've seen Lando save the bacon of a few ships when they really should've been space dust. Dude is underrated.

Outside of simulations, I think the best way of thinking about it is that Lando should normalize things a bit more- i.e. shift towards the mean. I think he makes spectacular rolls more unlikely since you've got to beat the odds twice, but otherwise shouldn't skew things too far?

Hmm... time to program a clonisher vs x ship simulator...

Just one of those things where my head went "If a Motti ISD has a chance, then an AP MC80 should..."

I'm curious as to what the odds get to be like with Lando on board. It's a lot of contingencies with math, of course, and I'm sure it depends on exactly how the Demolisher is kitted out. I've seen Lando save the bacon of a few ships when they really should've been space dust. Dude is underrated.

Outside of simulations, I think the best way of thinking about it is that Lando should normalize things a bit more- i.e. shift towards the mean. I think he makes spectacular rolls more unlikely since you've got to beat the odds twice, but otherwise shouldn't skew things too far?

Hmm... time to program a clonisher vs x ship simulator...

It usually comes down to...

"Han, you see all the hits on those dice over there?"

"Yeah, I guess?"

"They want the Billy Dee."

*sighs* "Damnit, Lando."

"Duty calls, my friend!" *cape flaps in the breeze, Lando disappears in a puff of smoke, chuckling to himself*

Just one of those things where my head went "If a Motti ISD has a chance, then an AP MC80 should..."

I'm curious as to what the odds get to be like with Lando on board. It's a lot of contingencies with math, of course, and I'm sure it depends on exactly how the Demolisher is kitted out. I've seen Lando save the bacon of a few ships when they really should've been space dust. Dude is underrated.

Outside of simulations, I think the best way of thinking about it is that Lando should normalize things a bit more- i.e. shift towards the mean. I think he makes spectacular rolls more unlikely since you've got to beat the odds twice, but otherwise shouldn't skew things too far?

Hmm... time to program a clonisher vs x ship simulator...

That and he makes you spend all your tricks before he forces the re-roll...so you won't have them again.