I enjoy running four of them with ptl, the title and thrusters. It's a really fun list.
This is what I took to the Hoth Open, and made it to the second day. I love the maneuverability they have. All my opponents commented that they are hard to pin down and put damage on.
How did you find the damage? 4 2-dice ships is just not a lot of offense. Definitely a durable list, though.
Baron of the Empire, just enough tools to be good?
I enjoy running four of them with ptl, the title and thrusters. It's a really fun list.
Heh, you can drop the title on one of them and upgrade the other to Omega Leader + Juke + Relay (100).
The thing that makes the JM5Ks so good is lots of dice, plus rerolls, plus the focus conversion, right? Rage and prockets does that. I'm going to give this a try:
Colonel Vessery (35)
Ruthlessness (3)
Tractor Beam (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/D (0)
Baron of the Empire (19)
Rage (1)
Proton Rockets (3)
Guidance Chips (0)
TIE/v1 (1)
Baron of the Empire (19)
Rage (1)
Proton Rockets (3)
Guidance Chips (0)
TIE/v1 (1)
Academy Pilot (12)
Total: 100
I will say that sometimes a good Alpha Strike doesn't have to be ordnance on every ship. I've done very well in the past with a Vader with a missile as an Alpha Strike. You hit one target hard and the rest of your ships can focus fire. Don't underestimate the power of just one or two missiles in a list.
Outmaneuver on a Baron that fires last is actually really clever. I like that. Situational, but not bad.
Juke really does well. I have to admit that I haven't been flying with it lately and I thought you had to spend the Evade token to get the ability. It's really nice that you don't. It does make Cluster Missiles better in that regard. I can see going with a PTL and Cluster being nice as you can Boost and then TL for those that are lower PS than you (U-boats, TLT, etc.).
I think the V1 is a nice ship to add to Imperial lists. Oh, it's nothing that's overtly game breaking, but it's a good ship to add that pulls a lot of pieces together. It's not the best at anything, but it's good at a lot.
these guys should have been 18 points
there is no reason for them to be stuck at 19, especially when crackshot and tie/v1 are both 1 point as well
the TAPs is not a insane enough ship to errant a price tax on what should be the normal +2 points for +2PS
2 dice primary + overpriced base basically kill any build you can make with them. Imo, the PS 4 FO is strictly superior especially as a Juke platform (comm relay is many times more flexible than the stiff Tie/v1).
The TAP is just more versatile that the FO. It can carry a missile and it can boost which mean thrusters. They are also slightly more durable than the FO having an extra shield.
Until we get more Tech upgrades, I rather have the missile slot. I do agree they shouldn't have been 19 points. 18 would have been a better price point. FFG's pricing with generics w/ EPTs is always goofy.
Edited by Jo JoI hate to get into the thought of what ships should cost as it's a moot point.
I think both the V1 and the Tie FO are both really good ships. I think they both have uses in the game. They don't have to be exclusive of each other. I think the Imperials have a lot of ships that they can use these days to build a list with and that's a good thing. We have good generics and named ones that all do a variety of things.
I also admit that I don't care for the ultra tournament meta, either, but I know good lists can be built with both Tie FO and V1.
the TAP really isn't more versatile.
the dial of the FO is in fact versatility incarnate. The TAPs, comparatively, is incredibly stiff
As for upgrades, you're not going to be spending points on a single missile shot that requires TL (and can't even abuse deadeye because tiev1 needs target-locks), not when the bomber costs the exact same (and cheaper at PS 4)
and thrusters are cute and all, but on lower PS ships it's far harder to enable. Plus 2 points is 2 points. They can make the inquisitor tough, or soontir nigh immortal. These guys will get a damage cancel or two at best, especially given the nature of low PS TLs. Not a great investment
pouring more points onto an overpriced base doesn't really make for much variety, just more unviable builds
ordnance really isn't so whambamthankyoumaam that we can stick it anywhere and call it a selling point. Unless you can abuse it (esp if you're a jumpmaster), or are a cheap as chips Z-95, it's still a vestigial upgrade slot
our friend the Baron of the Empire should've been 18 points to enable 20 point packets of crackshot + tie/v1
Edited by ficklegreendicethe TAP really isn't more versitile
you're not going to be spending points on a single missile shot that requires TL (and can't even abuse deadeye because tiev1 needs target-locks), not when the bomber costs the exact same (and cheaper at PS 4)
...
ordnance really isn't so whambamthankyoumaam that we can stick it anywhere and call it a selling point. Unless you can abuse it (esp if you're a jumpmaster), or are a cheap as chips Z-95, it's still a vestigial upgrade slot
I disagree. I think throwing in a ship with ordnance really can make a difference. I've used it in the past and I've seen it used in the latest round of Store Championships. You don't need a whole list of ordnance abusers to make ordnance worth it. Just being able to nuke one target pretty hard is a good selling point in a list.
The V1 does a nice job of being able to throw out ordnance, but then be a decent ship in it's own right to fight on afterwards. Especially with Juke.
Edited by heychadwickthe TAP really isn't more versatile.
the dial of the FO is in fact versatility incarnate. The TAPs, comparatively, is incredibly stiff
As for upgrades, you're not going to be spending points on a single missile shot that requires TL (and can't even abuse deadeye because tiev1 needs target-locks), not when the bomber costs the exact same (and cheaper at PS 4)
and thrusters are cute and all, but on lower PS ships it's far harder to enable. Plus 2 points is 2 points. They can make the inquisitor tough, or soontir nigh immortal. These guys will get a damage cancel or two at best, especially given the nature of low PS TLs. Not a great investment
pouring more points onto an overpriced base doesn't really make for much variety, just more unviable builds
ordnance really isn't so whambamthankyoumaam that we can stick it anywhere and call it a selling point. Unless you can abuse it (esp if you're a jumpmaster), or are a cheap as chips Z-95, it's still a vestigial upgrade slot
our friend the Baron of the Empire should've been 18 points to enable 20 point packets of crackshot + tie/v1
The FO dial, in my opinion, is superior, but the TAP does get 1-banks in return for losing its 2-sloops, which is something. It also has Boost, which matters, especially if you want more ability as a blocker. It's a different ship, but it's not strictly worse, and that missile slot is not nothing.
imo, the 1-greens are far more difficult to utilize than the 2-speed given the recent urge of large ship blockers
the area in which you can complete a successful green maneuver is much smaller for the TAPs than the FO or interceptor, leaving them open to blockers. Unless it's the inquisitor snaking in well away from the enemy, I've found I'd rather have FO greens any day
boost is always nice
the missile slot, however, imo is nothing. GC does not make ordnance good enough on its own, it just makes it good enough (finally) when combined with a variety of other nice stuff (extra munitions, for one)
the only configuration I can imagine taking a missile for is the STP with ion pulse and title (Chips) for 20, which I still wouldn't run because palp aces still won't care
the game's gotten to a point where a lot of sub-optimal stuff simply doesn't cut it anymore. We got dice mods up the ass, especially palp aces (imo still the build to beat) and just being able to throw out a powerful attack once isn't going to cut it when the fall back is a 2-dice primary
mixed feelings on that, given limiting variety is rarely good but removing as much RNG as possible from a maneuver-based game is a great idea. Ultimately, I feel the baron of the empire was a huge baffling mistake in pricing, and any attempt to make it work will be noble in intention, but ultimately frustratingly difficult. Any battle with these guys on your side is going to be an uphill one
ultimately, if asked which 2-dice ship would be worth trying to make work, I wouldn't point to the Baron of the Empire before Black Squad, Omega Squad, Omega Leader (technically the Inquisitor) etc. it just doesn't offer enough dice, which is just an exercise in frustration waiting to happen
Edited by ficklegreendiceAt 16 points, the Sienar is pretty much the Nathan Eide prototype A-wing but with one major advantage over the A-wing and TIE f/o IMO - they have 1-banks.
Executing 1-banks into a BR backwards is pretty brutal against Imperial aces who are chasing you. There's a good chance they'll bump you or fly by you.
The same applies to the Baron of course; but as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm not sure the 3-point premium and cost for Juke/PTL is good value.
I also think the title is borderline mandatory. It's one freaking point, and depending on the matchup it might do more for you than autothrusters even.
I wasn't saying that the Baron was actually a great ship to take, but its better than the Omega Sqd. Pilot in my opinion. It can just do more stuff.
I'm not really taking either in my builds. If I need a blocker its the STP. If I need a cheap missile carrier its the STP/Scimitar. If I need a cheap ship that can threaten to hit aces its BSP w/ Crack or Wampa.
Edited by Jo JoI'd take Omega Squaddie over BOTE any day
18 points of crackshot + that dial is a far better buy than a naked baron at an inexplicable one point mark-up
I'd take Omega Squaddie over BOTE any day
18 points of crackshot + that dial is a far better buy than a naked baron at an inexplicable one point mark-up
While I agree, I don't think anyone's trying to make a case for a naked Baron.
A more fair comparison might be Sienar [title, AT] vs Omega [Crack Shot]. I personally would trade 2-Segnors for 1-banks any day.
Edited by zerotcI just use Barons as cheaper Royal Guard doing the PTL+AT thing. Yeah, I don't get the Stealth Device, but I do get the v1 title, which is pretty good too.
Pricing discussion aside, I think a successful use of Barons could be a strong or solid Alhpa strike on anything but aces, that moves into hard to kill consistent but slow damage.
Against Aces, the use of the interesting dial would be nessescary to make sure you block an age for your friends to hammer on. Adding crack shot or juke is good for this, because it's hard to counter with no action to up your evasion.
A Baron with Juke, V1, Chimps and Prockets is 25 points. Run 2 of those with an ace that has Thread Tracers and fill the list out with whatever makes you feel good.
the missile slot, however, imo is nothing. GC does not make ordnance good enough on its own, it just makes it good enough (finally) when combined with a variety of other nice stuff (extra munitions, for one)
Once again, I disagree. When combined with something like a Concussion Missile, GC, and Juke, you end up with something that can do a lot of damage. Oh, it's true that perhaps the dice will crap out on you and you only get 2 hits, but the potential to do 4 hits is not bad at all....especially when combined with Juke. After that, you still have Juke and the V1 title to cause damage with.
Even just having one of these in your list of other ship types can be a boon. You get to smash one thing pretty smartly and still be useful afterwards. It's a nice thing to bring to a list.
Consider this (really just throwing out ideas here):
Baron, Crack Shot, Autothrusters, Homing Missiles, Title = 28 points, roughly the ballpark of the modern Imperial pocket ace.
Compared to the small ace, it is roughly as tough (Autothrusters + title), has a lower PS, but hits much harder once, and a bit less hard later. Consequently, it's stronger against lower PS ships with its ability to take stuff off the board quickly, but operates in a supporting role against higher PS aces. This is sort of the opposite of Omega Leader, who is strong against aces, but only okay against the beef.
I'm interested in seeing what "System Officer" does and if it relates to Target Locks, if there was a way to get the Barons a TL from very far away then I think they would have a very solid alpha strike.
Consider this (really just throwing out ideas here):
Baron, Crack Shot, Autothrusters, Homing Missiles, Title = 28 points, roughly the ballpark of the modern Imperial pocket ace.
Compared to the small ace, it is roughly as tough (Autothrusters + title), has a lower PS, but hits much harder once, and a bit less hard later. Consequently, it's stronger against lower PS ships with its ability to take stuff off the board quickly, but operates in a supporting role against higher PS aces. This is sort of the opposite of Omega Leader, who is strong against aces, but only okay against the beef.
Why not just go with Juke to make the Baron even better after the missile?
24 points is an interesting number for the Imperials. When you have two loaded aces, especially if one is a phantom, it is about what you find yourself having.
There are some options at that price range...
Baron + Juke + Title + AT is a nice 24 point ship. It can hit better than a normal 2-die ship. It often has TL/Evade, to work with juke and add survivability. The TL means he doesn't need howl runner. It makes a nice arc dodger for TLTs and Scouts. It has a chance to hit an ace due to the juke.
Saber Squadron + AT + CS. Here is a solid choice as well. No target lock, but the extra attack die. You will rarely if ever have the evade and cannot take TL, but the focus does one of those two roles. A faster dial, in a similar role.
Lambda + Vader crew. A totally different option. Anti-Ace, no arc dodge, no maneuverability. Some very nice blocking potential at the cost of positioning. Dies easy, but scares people.
2x Academy pilots. A swarm player option. Blocking, light hitting, requires support.
The real question then comes back to, is the Baron better than a Saber? The Saber is a little used ship, but is that because it is inefficient? Is the Baron more efficient enough to give up a quarter of your list? I'm not really sure, but I think it is worth testing. I do think the missiles, beyond tracers, should be left to higher PS ships or cheaper munitions carriers.
I can see Fickle's argument in terms of cost analysis. Black and white, it all makes sense. A crackshot FO has a different value than an ordnance packing Baron. But the moment in game... That could be very different.
How about this for a hypothetical: Same situation for the FO and the TAP. Your opponent just rolled 3 hits, 2 of them are crits, at range 3. Your green dice fail you, and all you have is your evade token. One of the two ships just took a crit. Obviously, it doesn't happen like that every time, the situation could be avoided completely by the FO's dial.
I like both ships because they come in under 27 points in a variety of load-outs to fill a variety of roles. I think the missile slot is of note now. It mitigates two advantages most targets have. High HP and high agility. Only one shot? Ordnance fire should be thrilling, the risk is part of the fun. Sometimes it's not even a risk, but the best play. Range 3 shot on an ace? Sounds like the riskier move is to just shoot the primary. Guidance Chips are a big part of making it work, even if it means no Autothrusters. I would argue that Autothrusters have a diminished role in the current environment.
Munitions matter now, and that's fun. Maybe a little cool too.They might even resurrect the Jouster class.
I think the missile slot is of note now. It mitigates two advantages most targets have. High HP and high agility. Munitions matter now, and that's fun.
Maybe a little cool too.They might even resurrect the Jouster class.
You forgot shield regen. It's hard to regenerate your shields when your dead. Alpha Strikes can do that (based on personal experience).
If it weren't for Integrated Astromech, I'd see a use for GC on a T-65 and Proton Torp.