The problem the Starviper had is that it's a relatively unknown ship with a comparatively small fan-base, in a just-starting-out faction. So yeah, it was a good thing they put autothrusters in there or they'd have sold a lot less of them.

Remind me how many people knew what the jumpmaster was and even if it had a fan base? That line of logic is flawed. Some people do buy ships based of nostalgia or personal aesthetics, but it's a miniatures game. People will buy the model if it works, and does what is needed.

The problem the Starviper had is that it's a relatively unknown ship with a comparatively small fan-base, in a just-starting-out faction. So yeah, it was a good thing they put autothrusters in there or they'd have sold a lot less of them.

Remind me how many people knew what the jumpmaster was and even if it had a fan base? That line of logic is flawed. Some people do buy ships based of nostalgia or personal aesthetics, but it's a miniatures game. People will buy the model if it works, and does what is needed.

The Stairmaster 9000 was at least piloted by someone who had screen time. Sure, it took the EU to give that person a name and a ship and all the rest, but it's still starting at an advantage. That fact that it's a **** fine ship is also definitely a factor, but also doesn't make it any more palatable that Interceptor upgrades are packaged with a S&V ship.

I have NEVER heard X-wing referred to as a pay-to-win game. Just because someone droped a boatload of money on it and beats you doesn't mean they paid to win. It means means your list sucked against theirs and you should change your list.

Given that X-wing now tops 40K in gaming, I'd like to think most players have at least 1of everything at this point in the game's life. This is mostly for allowing as many possibilities in list making as they can come up with.

Dengar action figure circa 1980. Appearantly part of the EU now.

Also put me in the buy one of everything crowd. Except the Scyk, still haven't got that thing yet. Got almost all small based expansions and half of the large, only the transport for huge. It's nice to be able to make cool combos and not rely on spam lists.

The problem the Starviper had is that it's a relatively unknown ship with a comparatively small fan-base, in a just-starting-out faction. So yeah, it was a good thing they put autothrusters in there or they'd have sold a lot less of them.

Remind me how many people knew what the jumpmaster was and even if it had a fan base? That line of logic is flawed. Some people do buy ships based of nostalgia or personal aesthetics, but it's a miniatures game. People will buy the model if it works, and does what is needed.

The Stairmaster 9000 was at least piloted by someone who had screen time. Sure, it took the EU to give that person a name and a ship and all the rest, but it's still starting at an advantage. That fact that it's a **** fine ship is also definitely a factor, but also doesn't make it any more palatable that Interceptor upgrades are packaged with a S&V ship.

The star viper probably had more of a presence then any jumpmaster, seeing as star vipers were enmass in video games. So I feel like that's still tomato, tomoto type situation.

I understand that you may feel like you're at a disadvantage for not buying at least 1 of everything. On the other hand, if you don't buy everything in the game, you will not get a complete game experience. You can complain about it, but it's the way the game is designed.

The people crying about pay to win are the ones that bought 3 X-wings and got beat by anything in the current meta.

Fixed it for ya

I brought 3 X-wings to my latest store champ and went 7-0 ^^. I did use cards from other expansions though.

T-70s don't count

Every miniatures game is pay to win. If the new waves weren't highly competitive people wouldn't buy them much. Simple business principle.

and Autothrusters only come in the Star Viper and it doesn't see much play. People dont complain as much because you get two for a smaller investment as oppose to the Raiders Tie Adv fixes.

and Autothrusters only come in the Star Viper and it doesn't see much play. People dont complain as much because you get two for a smaller investment as oppose to the Raiders Tie Adv fixes.

For the TIE advanced fix you can tell they were keeping the standard format in mind when releasing 4 titles and ATC for the TIE advanced (the most you can have in a 100 squadron point limit) . However with Rebel aces the most Chardaan refits you can have is 6 so you will have to buy 2 sets.

But FFG figured the most anyone will buy of the raider is 1 so why not have everything for a standard game while Rebel Aces you could just buy 2.

1 of everything? or 5 of everything?

I'm going to have 5 defenders. Not the best planning I've done in my life.

I started the game recently. Thought I would bolster my forces by buying used lots off ebay. I currently have 12 interceptors. Seems the first thing everyone bought after the starter box was Imperial Aces (currently sitting on 5 sets).

Only 1 defender though...

Interceptors without push to limit might be not the best deal, because you end up with buying imperial aces for PTL anyway.

Except when you use proxies anyway

12 interceptors? The limit for the same class is eight.

The people crying about pay to win are the ones that bought 3 X-wings and got beat by anything in the current meta.

Fixed it for ya

I brought 3 X-wings to my latest store champ and went 7-0 ^^. I did use cards from other expansions though.

T-70s don't count

Well it was only one t-70 but hey poe is just so much better than luke

I keep hearing over and over again people saying that U-Boats are pay to win. So, I decided to look up what it would cost if someone new to the game came in and just bought everything needed to buy the standard Trip U-Boats build. Now this is costs from FFG and not other sites and it included the core set. Then I compared it to what it would cost someone to build a typical Palp Aces build before wave 8 came out. I even made sure to see that each build was made as cheaply as possible.

Standard Trip U-Boats vs. Pre-Wave 8 Palp Aces w/ Vader

1 The Force Awakens Core Set $39.95 x 1 = $39.95

3 Punishing One $29.95 x 3 = $89.85

3 Dead Eye $14.95 x 3= $44.85

(3 A-Wings or TAPs)

3 Plasma Torpedoes $0.00

(Punishing One)

3 Extra Munitions $19.95 x 3 = $59.85

(K-Wing or TIE Punisher)

3 Guidance Chips $0.00

(Punishing One)

3 R4 Agromech $39.95 x 2 = $79.90

(Most Wanted)

TOTAL $314.40

1 The Force Awakens Core Set $39.95 x 1 = $39.95

1 Lambda-class Shuttle $29.95 x 1 = $29.95

1 TIE Interceptor $14.95 x 1 = $14.95

1 TIE Advanced $14.95 x 1 = $14.95

1 Emperor Palpatine $99.95 x 1 = $99.95

(Imperial Raider)

1 Royal Guard TIE $29.95 x 1 = $29.95

(Imperial Aces)

1 Push the Limit $0.00

(A-Wing or Imperial Aces)

1 Stealth Device $14.95 x 1 = $14.95

(Slave I or M3-A Interceptor)

1 Autothrusters $19.95 x 1 = $19.95

(StarViper)

1 Veteran Instincts $29.95 x 1 = $29.95

(Slave I or Millennium Falcon)

1 Engine Upgrade $0.00

(Millennium Falcon or

Hound’s Tooth)

1 TIE/x1 $0.00

(Imperial Raider)

1 Advanced Targeting Computer $0.00

(Imperial Raider)

TOTAL $294.55

Difference $314.40 - $294.55 = $19.85

U-Boats cost a whooping $19.95 more and that's what's called pay to win???

Was Palp Aces w/ Vader pay to win too when they started being used?

actual answer:

3 punishing ones - $90

the other cards off ebay - like $10 including shipping max lol

"pay to win"

12 interceptors? The limit for the same class is eight.

Not in epic.

You cannot call any list in X-wing Pay 2 Win, it is Pay 2 Play.

I cannot for example drop $20 on the table to make all my ships roll +1 red and +1 green dice. I cannot pay $20 to respawn a ship and deprive you of the points and the win. I cannot pay $20 to make my ships +2 hull and +2 shields. There are no gold upgrade cards which things like proton torpedos but they roll 6 dice and change 2 blanks to crits.

That does not exist in X-wing. There is a cost to play but not a way to win by just throwing more money at the table than your opponent. If you can't afford the entry fee I understand but that does not make it P2W. I can't afford to race F-1 cars... but it isn't P2W.

P2W is a literal pissing contest with $$$.

You cannot call any list in X-wing Pay 2 Win, it is Pay 2 Play.

I cannot for example drop $20 on the table to make all my ships roll +1 red and +1 green dice. I cannot pay $20 to respawn a ship and deprive you of the points and the win. I cannot pay $20 to make my ships +2 hull and +2 shields. There are no gold upgrade cards which things like proton torpedos but they roll 6 dice and change 2 blanks to crits.

That does not exist in X-wing. There is a cost to play but not a way to win by just throwing more money at the table than your opponent. If you can't afford the entry fee I understand but that does not make it P2W. I can't afford to race F-1 cars... but it isn't P2W.

P2W is a literal pissing contest with $$$.

That is easy do say if you do not consider all of the cards, but some would say that you are being disingenuous.

You can pay $90 to have you fleet of TIE Advanceds get a free 4 points of System Slot upgrades.

All I got to say is that I'm glad it's not a blind package of random ships!

You cannot call any list in X-wing Pay 2 Win, it is Pay 2 Play.

I cannot for example drop $20 on the table to make all my ships roll +1 red and +1 green dice. I cannot pay $20 to respawn a ship and deprive you of the points and the win. I cannot pay $20 to make my ships +2 hull and +2 shields. There are no gold upgrade cards which things like proton torpedos but they roll 6 dice and change 2 blanks to crits.

That does not exist in X-wing. There is a cost to play but not a way to win by just throwing more money at the table than your opponent. If you can't afford the entry fee I understand but that does not make it P2W. I can't afford to race F-1 cars... but it isn't P2W.

P2W is a literal pissing contest with $$$.

That is easy do say if you do not consider all of the cards, but some would say that you are being disingenuous.

You can pay $90 to have you fleet of TIE Advanceds get a free 4 points of System Slot upgrades.

because we see x4 tie adv's so well represented at literally any final table.

Of course it's play to win or pay to play, it's a collectable table top game! That much is undeniable as it is in it's very nature. ^__^

This thing that 3 jumpmasters are "op" and pay to win are just coming from people who ran up against one of these list at a tournament, lost hard and now blames the player instead of the game.

I won a regional with a fat han with chewbacca instead of c3p0 because I didn't wanna buy a cr90 for just one card. Later on I did that since I realised that 3cp0 was so much more effective and I have only played with my cr90 once in epic. Did I pay to win?

In some ways yes but that's part of the tournament game. Many strong lists require you to buy more expanions than you really want but it's just a game and it's your choice if you want to or not.

Most FFG's games and x wing included is pay to win if you want to play in tournaments because alot of new stuff will either buff older expansions or be slightly better than earlier expansions so yes you will usually have to pay for ships and expansions you don't want just cause you will need a card here and a card there. But if wave 1 lists would FFG sell as many expanions? (spoiler: NOPE)

3 of the top 4 lists at my most recent store champ hade 4+ crack shots in them and they were all imperial squadrons. I myself won that champsionship with both a crackshot and 2 integrated astromech despite the fact that I never used more than my core set T-75 or khirax. Did I pay for my win?

Chess is not pay to win since it's the same pieces for all players every time. X-wing is a game were they release new ships and cards 2-3 times a year. Some will be better some will be worse and some will unlock new combinations that are much more powerful that old ones. It's just that kind of game and most people who place high in tournaments knows and accept this.

Pay to win is used as some kind of shame against players brining in strong lists. It's not like these expanions are limited edtition, you all have the option to buy 3 jumpmasters and go kick some butt but we have seen time and time again that it's both a strong list and a good player that wins tournaments not just one of these two.

you could put me in that category as someone who lost to the list the first game I played against it the day after it came out. I was completely unprepared for it. The list I was running was never going to be able to handle going against it. Now in the game directly before it I won against 2 uboats and some feedback z's. The problem was the fact that I had not been reading anything about wave 8, I wanted to have that excitement and surprise of opening up some new ships and enjoying what was something new and cool. I made top 8 but also got smashed out by a rebel list that had gotten a ordinance list together with the new upgrades.it was a steep learning curve both games and in both cases I had to say yes I felt the pay to win feeling. The problem was that if you didn't know that the game, not just meta had taken a huge change in direction with reliable heavy 4 dice attacks. The fact was that yes people who didn't jump on that wagon got stomped, everyone did that day. I had the old feeling of 40k but the difference was overnight not over a few weeks/months but it was still the same. With other waves the counters didn't get countered so easy either and we were only talking about 1 ship not 3 to seal the deal

So your unpreparedness going into a tournament because people brought new, long time ago spoiled, toys, is some how not your fault? It's pay to win? Ha...hahah.....Hahahahahahaha. No, sir, you need to at least read up on stuff in a tournament setting. You even get to see the opponents list before the round, so you can't even claim that.

There are plenty of posts in this thread of low IQ, there is a big difference to collecting ships and list over a given time than dropping the cash on release to pick up a beat face list. Most people who have been collecting would already have most of the upgrades from the other packs to play this list. But nobody picks up 3 big based ships on release or just after if they didn't intend to smash face. If people can't admit this to them selves so be it. But this list kills of comp, just like the phantom did. I don't want to go back to playing anti meta xwing because a few dbags wanted to jump on easy street. I love xwing plus I'm competitive, I already have all the counters and have won 40+player tournaments with the list that counter it, I just don't want to have too.

You cannot call any list in X-wing Pay 2 Win, it is Pay 2 Play.

I cannot for example drop $20 on the table to make all my ships roll +1 red and +1 green dice. I cannot pay $20 to respawn a ship and deprive you of the points and the win. I cannot pay $20 to make my ships +2 hull and +2 shields. There are no gold upgrade cards which things like proton torpedos but they roll 6 dice and change 2 blanks to crits.

That does not exist in X-wing. There is a cost to play but not a way to win by just throwing more money at the table than your opponent. If you can't afford the entry fee I understand but that does not make it P2W. I can't afford to race F-1 cars... but it isn't P2W.

P2W is a literal pissing contest with $$$.

That is easy do say if you do not consider all of the cards, but some would say that you are being disingenuous.

You can pay $90 to have you fleet of TIE Advanceds get a free 4 points of System Slot upgrades.

because we see x4 tie adv's so well represented at literally any final table.

You have never seen a list with Vader, obviously utalizing the title, perform well at a tournament?

More importantly, what does the fact that you don't see a purchasable advantage as significant have to do with whether or not the purchasable advantage exists?

You cannot call any list in X-wing Pay 2 Win, it is Pay 2 Play.

I cannot for example drop $20 on the table to make all my ships roll +1 red and +1 green dice. I cannot pay $20 to respawn a ship and deprive you of the points and the win. I cannot pay $20 to make my ships +2 hull and +2 shields. There are no gold upgrade cards which things like proton torpedos but they roll 6 dice and change 2 blanks to crits.

That does not exist in X-wing. There is a cost to play but not a way to win by just throwing more money at the table than your opponent. If you can't afford the entry fee I understand but that does not make it P2W. I can't afford to race F-1 cars... but it isn't P2W.

P2W is a literal pissing contest with $$$.

That is easy do say if you do not consider all of the cards, but some would say that you are being disingenuous.

You can pay $90 to have you fleet of TIE Advanceds get a free 4 points of System Slot upgrades.

because we see x4 tie adv's so well represented at literally any final table.

You have never seen a list with Vader, obviously utalizing the title, perform well at a tournament?

More importantly, what does the fact that you don't see a purchasable advantage as significant have to do with whether or not the purchasable advantage exists?

I think he's getting confused with bejewelled or some other game where you pay money to win but to auto advance, cos xwing is just like internet app games ya know. Skill factor is erelevnt when I can just pay you money to let my dice roll be what I want it to be. Come on we know it ain't like that but some people are having problems with the correlation between the two ideas

Its pay to win!

Of course!

No pay - no play.

No play - no win.

No pay - no win.

Ergo:

Pay to win!

(or to lose - but still, if you have lost, you have played)

I am pretty much settled and satisfied with my own answer.

The whole game model is pay to win, outside casual play. If you're playing tournaments, you're buying 2-x more ships than you need, many you'll never actually use (looking at you, 3,427 cheap Starvipers and K-Wings on EBay, lol) just to gather the requisite cards. There is definitely a hidden cost to the deceptively inexpensive entry-level investment.

So no, I don't see why you'd call Triple Toilet Seat "pay to win" more than any other tournament list.