I could build a really expensive and terrible list, does that mean this game is pay to lose also???

It's really quite simple.

Step 1: Pay

Step 2: Play

Step 3: Win or lose

it is pay to win, but its only barely classified that.

Pay to win means you are paying money to amplify what you have even further, or gain access to something most people wouldnt to get an advantage. If you buy an expansion for the cards and not the ship, thats considered paying to win.

But, unlike Magic, micro-transaction games, or various "free" MMO games, its very minimal gain and you know what youre getting. I only consider it pay to win because there is a heavy mentality to buy ships you dont actually want.

Yes i know the "buy stuff to make your army better" applies to pretty much any game, but like i said, youre buying kits for the cards not the ship. Even worse, you buy kits for a faction you dont even use because of the cards. I want engine upgrades, but its impossible to get that without buying non-imperial ships. Same for Autothrustors. Its either i make do with what i have, or i "pay to win" so i can run a better list with the exact same ships.

It is possible to have pay-to-win in a fixed-content expansion pack game like XWM, but XWM is not pay-to-win.

The way that works is by dollar-pricing the components based on power level, with intentional in-game power imbalances that are supposedly offset by the dollar price of the components in question. To put that in XWM terms, imagine a setup like:

- Every generic TIE costs 12 points (including TAPs, advanced, defenders, phantoms)

- Named pilots cost a couple points more (so Vessery would be +5 points just like now)

- TIE Fighter packs cost $15 like now

- TIE Defender packs cost $50

- TIE Phantom packs cost $80

- Imperial Vets would cost $100

So for a cool $800 you can fly 8x Onyx/X7s and absolutely obliterate any list that didn't drop $800.

THAT is pay to win.

While FFG might make balancing mistakes, they are *mistakes* and not intended to correlate with the price you play to acquire the imbalanced cards. Note that this is separate from packaging components in ways that encourage you to spend money! They're trying to get you to buy all the things and *not* have the game be imbalanced as a result.

I guess you could say the game is pay to win, but we aren't talking about the game are we. No we are talking about those who ran out and brought 3 jump masters at launch or close to it.

Was the list brought to play friendly's with, not likely. Considering there are only a few list that can stand well against it, where are the people running the 4 x T70 list?

Pay to win means you are paying money to amplify what you have even further, or gain access to something most people wouldnt to get an advantage. Correct. Everything in X-Wing is available to everyone out of the box, so nothing in X-Wing is pay to win.

If you buy an expansion for the cards and not the ship, thats considered paying to win field a legal squad that you want to play at a sanctioned tournament, not paying to win.

I only consider it pay to win because there is a heavy mentality to buy ships you dont actually want. The ships and cards are, in sum total, the expansion pack. If you want the cards but not want pilots, you still want the expansion. Ebay has plenty of card singles that cost half as much as the expansion if you really only want one single card out of an expansion... but you're overpaying for that card compared to just buying the expansion. Paying outrageous prices for single cards to field your specific list is closer to pay to win than buying the full expansion from FFG.

If you bought all your stuff online at the 30-40% discounts, it is save to win!

You can't actually buy any of the ships without buying them...

So you could say people pay to lose, too.

People don't know the meaning of the phrases they choose to utilize.

I bought two jumpmasters...

I paid to have two ships with a bunch of upgrades I may use someday.

I also paid to have enough ships to lend one out to a buddy on game nights.

I have paid to break even.

1 of everything? or 5 of everything?

I'm going to have 5 defenders. Not the best planning I've done in my life.

I started the game recently. Thought I would bolster my forces by buying used lots off ebay. I currently have 12 interceptors. Seems the first thing everyone bought after the starter box was Imperial Aces (currently sitting on 5 sets).

Only 1 defender though...

It's not pay-to-win in the sense that you can literally spend money to go up the ladder, sure...

I don't care one bit for how current meta affects people's shopping carts, either. If you just want to follow the easiest path and change your whole list to whatever is considered "best efficency" at the moment, go for it. All wins are fun, even easy wins, so I give you my absolution, because apparently not everyone has to "feel" his build to play it, and I can live with that. All the more good challenges for me to overcome. Just don't lie to me saying there's no power creep, because it's out there.

What really sickens me in X-wing, though, is the buy lots of stuff you don't want for pieces of paper you're gonna need business model.

You get a T-70 X-wing from new Core set. Integrated Astromech is a free upgrade that basicly gives you a free shield, improving the ship's overall potential with no drawbacks.

Wanna get it? Buy a T-70 expansion pack. Want that upgrade for the newly purchsed X-wing as well? Oh...

Upgrade it with Autothrusters then! Yes, a card only available on a ship comonly considered sub-par, which also belongs to a completely different faction altogether. What a bargain!

How about, you want to field some old X-wings, for which IA is even more of a no-brainer? Buy some more T-70 expansion packs...

Wanted some Guidance Chips for all your Y-wing ordnance dreams of the past? Get one of the 2 expansions that belong to different factions.

Or go TLT, and buy K-wing for it. Oh, those were Scum Y's this time? Tough luck dude, you're stuck with a Rebel ship that has the worst model in the entire range, not even shelf-worthy.

Fielding TIE Advanced? You better open up your wallet for an Epic ship noone in your region cares about, because it's the only way to make it competetive.

How about R2-D2 for your Falcon (3PO at least you can get via other chanels)? For only 100$ you can get a lump of plastic and maculature called Tantive IV to go with it,

I could go on like this forever. You might argue that people will buy 1+ of each anyway, but that's not the case for me.

I've got this thing with a friend of mine, where I always collect Rebels, and he's the Empire dude, back from Decipher's SW CCG times.

Why either of us would want to have a Scum ship?

Sure, sure, we can just print out the cards for casual play, but what about the guy who really likes taking Crackswarm to tournaments and had to buy 5-6 Kihr-craps which are completely worthless?

Call it what you want, that's a really annoying business model. Of course, you don't have to use all the options, there are ships that can be built with a single purchase like OL on budget without Stealth Device... but getting a single Tech card with new Core - a pack of 3 ships that have a slot for it, now that's just beyond pathetic.

So there, a piece of internet drama for you to enjoy, because this really makes me bitter, no matter how I'd like to avoid it.

It's a great game, but the greed is sticking out a bit to much to turn a blind eye on it, just my 2 cents.

The people crying about pay to win are the ones that bought 3 E-wings and got beat by anything in the current meta.

The people crying about pay to win are the ones that bought 3 X-wings and got beat by anything in the current meta.

Fixed it for ya

There is no point in denying it. X-Wing has one example of pay to win - the TIE Advanced. That ship can, exclusively, be made better by using a card that must be purchased independently from the original TIE Advanced expansion. That card does not have any opportunity cost, does not cost any squadron points to equip, and objectively makes the ship better.

Otherwise, X-Wing is a game where you pay to participate and pay for more access to different options. Once a player has a squad, the game should be balanced based on the costs of ships and upgrades so that no further purchases are necessary to be evenly matched at the start of a game.

This thing that 3 jumpmasters are "op" and pay to win are just coming from people who ran up against one of these list at a tournament, lost hard and now blames the player instead of the game.

I won a regional with a fat han with chewbacca instead of c3p0 because I didn't wanna buy a cr90 for just one card. Later on I did that since I realised that 3cp0 was so much more effective and I have only played with my cr90 once in epic. Did I pay to win?

In some ways yes but that's part of the tournament game. Many strong lists require you to buy more expanions than you really want but it's just a game and it's your choice if you want to or not.

Most FFG's games and x wing included is pay to win if you want to play in tournaments because alot of new stuff will either buff older expansions or be slightly better than earlier expansions so yes you will usually have to pay for ships and expansions you don't want just cause you will need a card here and a card there. But if wave 1 lists would FFG sell as many expanions? (spoiler: NOPE)

3 of the top 4 lists at my most recent store champ hade 4+ crack shots in them and they were all imperial squadrons. I myself won that champsionship with both a crackshot and 2 integrated astromech despite the fact that I never used more than my core set T-75 or khirax. Did I pay for my win?

Chess is not pay to win since it's the same pieces for all players every time. X-wing is a game were they release new ships and cards 2-3 times a year. Some will be better some will be worse and some will unlock new combinations that are much more powerful that old ones. It's just that kind of game and most people who place high in tournaments knows and accept this.

Pay to win is used as some kind of shame against players brining in strong lists. It's not like these expanions are limited edtition, you all have the option to buy 3 jumpmasters and go kick some butt but we have seen time and time again that it's both a strong list and a good player that wins tournaments not just one of these two.

The people crying about pay to win are the ones that bought 3 X-wings and got beat by anything in the current meta.

Fixed it for ya

I brought 3 X-wings to my latest store champ and went 7-0 ^^. I did use cards from other expansions though.

Um... You don't have to win. You also don't have to play.

Plenty of other games out there that have everything you need in one box.

Chess and Checkers are classics, as is Monopoly

X-wing IS a game in which you "pay to win", and that goes for casual as well as competitive gaming. You have to invest in the game even to play it, and the more you spend on the game, the better lists you can build, and the more winning strategies you can develop. No specific list is more of a "pay to win" strategy than another. The competitive side is a little more "pay to win", as original components are necessary, whereas casual games allow proxies, but generally on both sides, there will be upgrades and ships that we buy specifically for certain strategies, hence we at least try to "pay to win"; doesn't always work, and sometimes we end up paying to lose, but so be it....).

Rather than using pay to win as an insult, we might as well just accept it for what it is- pay to win is how X-wing and FFG make a viable business.

Um... You don't have to win. You also don't have to play.

Plenty of other games out there that have everything you need in one box.

Chess and Checkers are classics, as is Monopoly

Um... You don't have to win. You also don't have to play.

Plenty of other games out there that have everything you need in one box.

Chess and Checkers are classics, as is Monopoly

What about Star Wars Rebellion?

Life is pay to win.

You have to be prepared to invest cash into your hobby.

Someone who played golf, might quite happily spend thousands of dollars buying a really good set of clubs. Same deal goes for many many passtimes, especially the ones that are a competitive activity.

I've never once heard a golfer moan about the sport being "pay to win".

At least the x wing meta is open enough that no-one has to invest in triple u-boats unless they want to.

It's not like the existence of that squad obseletes everything else; you can beat them without joining them.

Saw someone take down the triple u-boats just yesterday.

And you know what with? X-Wings. As in the X-Wings that came with the original core set.

How's that for paying to win? $29.95 spent over two years ago to defeat the current "big thing". And it was awesome to watch.

I agree with the above statements about hobbies. This one is mine. I buy what I want, when I want, when I can afford to, after the family and life-things are taken care of. I could buy the triple u-boats if I wanted to. I'd rather own more of every ship, though and build lists I like that just may - just may - be competitive and effective against the current meta builds.

This is my hobby. I don't do the bar scene and drink every weekend, or throw copious amounts of money away on car accessories, or spend hundreds of dollars for select sports. And I certainly don't bemoan anyone who does. That's they're prerogative and they can do what they want. My wife buys shoes. I buy ships. To each their own so long as it doesn't interfere in other aspects of life.

This thing that 3 jumpmasters are "op" and pay to win are just coming from people who ran up against one of these list at a tournament, lost hard and now blames the player instead of the game.

I won a regional with a fat han with chewbacca instead of c3p0 because I didn't wanna buy a cr90 for just one card. Later on I did that since I realised that 3cp0 was so much more effective and I have only played with my cr90 once in epic. Did I pay to win?

In some ways yes but that's part of the tournament game. Many strong lists require you to buy more expanions than you really want but it's just a game and it's your choice if you want to or not.

Most FFG's games and x wing included is pay to win if you want to play in tournaments because alot of new stuff will either buff older expansions or be slightly better than earlier expansions so yes you will usually have to pay for ships and expansions you don't want just cause you will need a card here and a card there. But if wave 1 lists would FFG sell as many expanions? (spoiler: NOPE)

3 of the top 4 lists at my most recent store champ hade 4+ crack shots in them and they were all imperial squadrons. I myself won that champsionship with both a crackshot and 2 integrated astromech despite the fact that I never used more than my core set T-75 or khirax. Did I pay for my win?

Chess is not pay to win since it's the same pieces for all players every time. X-wing is a game were they release new ships and cards 2-3 times a year. Some will be better some will be worse and some will unlock new combinations that are much more powerful that old ones. It's just that kind of game and most people who place high in tournaments knows and accept this.

Pay to win is used as some kind of shame against players brining in strong lists. It's not like these expanions are limited edtition, you all have the option to buy 3 jumpmasters and go kick some butt but we have seen time and time again that it's both a strong list and a good player that wins tournaments not just one of these two.

This thing that 3 jumpmasters are "op" and pay to win are just coming from people who ran up against one of these list at a tournament, lost hard and now blames the player instead of the game.

I won a regional with a fat han with chewbacca instead of c3p0 because I didn't wanna buy a cr90 for just one card. Later on I did that since I realised that 3cp0 was so much more effective and I have only played with my cr90 once in epic. Did I pay to win?

In some ways yes but that's part of the tournament game. Many strong lists require you to buy more expanions than you really want but it's just a game and it's your choice if you want to or not.

Most FFG's games and x wing included is pay to win if you want to play in tournaments because alot of new stuff will either buff older expansions or be slightly better than earlier expansions so yes you will usually have to pay for ships and expansions you don't want just cause you will need a card here and a card there. But if wave 1 lists would FFG sell as many expanions? (spoiler: NOPE)

3 of the top 4 lists at my most recent store champ hade 4+ crack shots in them and they were all imperial squadrons. I myself won that champsionship with both a crackshot and 2 integrated astromech despite the fact that I never used more than my core set T-75 or khirax. Did I pay for my win?

Chess is not pay to win since it's the same pieces for all players every time. X-wing is a game were they release new ships and cards 2-3 times a year. Some will be better some will be worse and some will unlock new combinations that are much more powerful that old ones. It's just that kind of game and most people who place high in tournaments knows and accept this.

Pay to win is used as some kind of shame against players brining in strong lists. It's not like these expanions are limited edtition, you all have the option to buy 3 jumpmasters and go kick some butt but we have seen time and time again that it's both a strong list and a good player that wins tournaments not just one of these two.

you could put me in that category as someone who lost to the list the first game I played against it the day after it came out. I was completely unprepared for it. The list I was running was never going to be able to handle going against it. Now in the game directly before it I won against 2 uboats and some feedback z's. The problem was the fact that I had not been reading anything about wave 8, I wanted to have that excitement and surprise of opening up some new ships and enjoying what was something new and cool. I made top 8 but also got smashed out by a rebel list that had gotten a ordinance list together with the new upgrades.it was a steep learning curve both games and in both cases I had to say yes I felt the pay to win feeling. The problem was that if you didn't know that the game, not just meta had taken a huge change in direction with reliable heavy 4 dice attacks. The fact was that yes people who didn't jump on that wagon got stomped, everyone did that day. I had the old feeling of 40k but the difference was overnight not over a few weeks/months but it was still the same. With other waves the counters didn't get countered so easy either and we were only talking about 1 ship not 3 to seal the deal

So your unpreparedness going into a tournament because people brought new, long time ago spoiled, toys, is some how not your fault? It's pay to win? Ha...hahah.....Hahahahahahaha. No, sir, you need to at least read up on stuff in a tournament setting. You even get to see the opponents list before the round, so you can't even claim that.

Was Palp Aces w/ Vader pay to win too when they started being used?

Pretty much, yes.

FFG deliberately packages good upgrades in otherwise hard-to-sell or expensive kits, in order to boost the sales of those kits. This is a known sales strategy.

I hear this a lot and it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Okay, it's tempting to look at, say, the StarViper and say, hey, good job they put Autothrusters in there or they'd sell a whole heap less of those.

But that doesn't make a lot of sense. Why not actually make the StarViper good? Surely that would sell even more. And there's ships with decent stats AND good upgrades (B-wing, etc). Ultimately the more balanced, the better. Kits that fix discrepancies in older ships are popular.

The only place it makes any sense is with the Epic ships. Put a couple of cards in there that everyone will want and people are much more likely to buy them. You might also argue that with X-wing, ships like the Millennium Falcon probably are more popular than, say, YV666 as casual SW fans identify the former. But I don't see much evidence that non-iconic ships are particularly more attractive in terms of cards.

Pretty much, yes.

FFG deliberately packages good upgrades in otherwise hard-to-sell or expensive kits, in order to boost the sales of those kits. This is a known sales strategy.

I hear this a lot and it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Okay, it's tempting to look at, say, the StarViper and say, hey, good job they put Autothrusters in there or they'd sell a whole heap less of those.

But that doesn't make a lot of sense. Why not actually make the StarViper good? Surely that would sell even more. And there's ships with decent stats AND good upgrades (B-wing, etc). Ultimately the more balanced, the better. Kits that fix discrepancies in older ships are popular.

The only place it makes any sense is with the Epic ships. Put a couple of cards in there that everyone will want and people are much more likely to buy them. You might also argue that with X-wing, ships like the Millennium Falcon probably are more popular than, say, YV666 as casual SW fans identify the former. But I don't see much evidence that non-iconic ships are particularly more attractive in terms of cards.

The problem the Starviper had is that it's a relatively unknown ship with a comparatively small fan-base, in a just-starting-out faction. So yeah, it was a good thing they put autothrusters in there or they'd have sold a lot less of them.

Perhaps. But it doesn't seem like an intended outcome. More a happy coincidence. Most kits have some decent upgrades in there. That seems to be a ploy to get us to buy one of every ship. Which, for the most part, does work quite well.