Me and my PCs have just been playing through the 'Into The Maw' adventure, and as with any other RPG we have played are causing me all sorts of trouble.

During the fight with the two Wolfpack Raiders, they managed to disable and board both raiders (they got really lucky and I underestimated their creativity), and have decided to tow the behind them to Footfall in order to attempt to sell them. I cannot find much information about selling items or ships for that matter. Would a successful sale of the two raiders be worth two profit factor points? How else could I reflect the profit made from selling these?

--Olek

Even one profit factor is a huge portion. After all, the final reward is three profit factor, for a hold full of ancient artifacts. Even something like establishing an entire trade route is 3 profit. I'd say give them some endevour points that will factor into their next endevour or EXP points. These ships aren't exactly in their prime, and any spare parts that will be stripped won't exactly modify the OVERALL wealth by a large portion.

It would be like bill gate selling 2 computers. Sure, he'd make some cash, but is $1000, a large change in his overall earnings?

Profit factor represents stable income. You could make it bump their profit factor for a short amount of time, but without being able to consistantly importing wolf-pack raiders for sale, the profit factor won't last. Maybe have it so they can strip the parts, and maybe have some parts be repaired to start them on building a new ship. Or have them add new roleplay opportunities. Maybe these parts will be a card in their hand when dealing with a criminal contact, or perhaps the adeptus mechanis are in need of a functioning plasma drive for experiments, or a new creation. What does that lead to? Who knows..

I have to disagree with Tido, the total profit factor of that adventure is only 3 if you do no side quests, and have no ship parts that give a bonus to your achievement score. It's a 3 part adventure, each part is worth 500 achievement, the total achievement to complete it is 1500. There are 2 side notes worth 200 for selling some books off in Footfall, and either ferrying the pilgrims from that encounter to FF for 200, or stripping the pilgrim ship for 400. at the end of the adventure, if you've done both, and your total achievement is say (we'll say they ferried and have no ship pieces that add more) 1900, that, at the end of the endeavor, is +4 profit factor on TOP of the profit factor from completing it. Selling a ship is not like Bill selling a computer, it's like Bill selling an operating system (which DOES have a large effect on his net worth). Most of the ships in Rogue Trader aren't in their prime... that's a bonus, as in the Imperium, the older the technology, the better it is/more prestigeous, etc.

If they want to sell it, there is precident within the adventure itself that selling off just one of them is worth at LEAST 4 profit factor (as the jericho pilgrim ship is no where near as decked out as a wolfpack raider, and at the end of the adventure, just stripping that of parts is worth 4 profit factor). Profit factor is meant to be somewhat... temporary, require upkeep checks, etc, that can reduce your PF as often as not. If their ships, crew, etc, were damaged in the encounter with the raiders, their own ship will require an upkeep check, failing that check may net them a -5 to their PF (which means, worst case scenario, capturing 2 ships and selling them provides a slight upgrade to their PF while keeping their ship in repair).

While I agree with the good Brother that seeling whole ships is lots and lots of turnover , I think there is a lots of "investment" to be done as well. It´s not like everyone in the imperium could buy (or even afford!) a space ship. For sure, you will not be granted the money "up front" but in form of other resources (land, title) or a steady flow of money just like you would pay off a car nowadays.

In addtion, it is not "4 Profit points flat" but 400 ap which only transfert into this 4 profit under the circumstances the adventure dictates. There are no "hard and fast" rules for his. At least, no officials.

How about turning the sell of the two ships into a grand endeavour ? (+5)

Objective: Find a client [Military; Criminal; Trade]
You have to spread the word that you have two ships on sale and that your are searching for some-one to "buy" them. Leave the ship at some point and send out the message (or even go travelling somehwere yourself!) to find interested parties...the more, the better you price will be!

Objective: Get rid of the pirate crew! [Criminal; Military; Trade; Creed]
These are pirates. It is a wonder that they did not revolt on the way, since they should know that only death, imprisonment and slavery waits for them. Now, sell them on to the slave markets, get penance for them by the local Bishop (to use them as crew!); give them away to the Governeur or the IG-Commander as "Penal Legionaire" or simply (and non-profitable) hand them over to the judges...if they don´t decided that it is YOUR duty to "clean house" and send all of them out on an airlock on your own! ("Your business is your business. You claim the prize, so you must deal justice for those that are found guilty!).

Objective: Haggle a payment [Trade]
What ever the deal, you will not be given cash. Haggle and make sure you know what is your side of the deal...otherwise you might be paid with fraught accounts or with mines that aren´t worth a throne.

Gregorius21778 said:

This is, of course, how it should be done! Very neat, and I think it illustrates the logic of the profit system

The Raiders got away in my game, but the question is still a good one as it will pop up again. I like the Grand Endeavor idea.

I handled this as follows:

1)Most pirate ships have prior owners. If you kill the pirates and take the ship as your own you are just another pirate under the Imperium's eyes.

2)Pirate ships not built in the Imperium are often forbidden classes. Built by Rogue Forgeworlds that include heretical, and Xenos technology. These ships are attacked on sight by Naval vessels, and Admech ships.

3)If you recapture a vessel and return it to the Imperial authorities you can claim the ship under the rules of salvage. You get a percentage of the vessel's current worth.

4)Just because another Rogue Trader attacked you, and you captured his ship. You can't keep the ship legally. (Any more than I would be able to keep your stuff if you assaulted me today.) Strip it, Ransom it, Blown it up. Sure.

5)Changing a ship's origin is really hard. You need to refit the engine, strip off the maker marks all over the ship, and the like/ Tech priests generally will refuse to dishonor a ship in this way.

Thus if the PCs capture an pirate vessel they have only a few options:

A)Turn it over to the Imperium for salvage.

B)Keep the vessel in the Expanse and hope a Naval patrol doesn't ID the ship.

C)Strip the vessel for parts.

D)Selling it on the black market. Might very well be bought by pirates.

E)Completely refit the vessel replacing the drive, a number of other systems, alter the hull profile, and remove every plaque/maker mark/serial number. This is a task of months or years.

In A,C,D the PCs might get 10-20% of the ship's SP in profit factor. Plus there are possible bounties on the pirates.

Well, unless the Navy gets close enough to make a visual inspection, you could probably get away with replacing/reprogramming the vox-transponders, loosely bolting some new panels to the ship and rejigging the engines.

The reason I say this is until they get close enough to confirm their target's ID with Mk-1 Eyeball, all they can go by is the energy you're emitting (barring powerful psychic tricks, anyway), and possibly by a hull map with radar/lidar. Provided you can alter the RF emissions spilling from the ship's various electronics (which can be done by switching off/on various pieces of equipment and altering the shape of the antenna, i.e. the hull, which neatly covers the chance they recognise the hull map), you can provide a fair degree of confusion, maybe enough to (temporarily) convince them it's not the same ship. The voxponder tells them who you claim to be, so if you can get a good signals match with your fake voxponder ident, it'll buy some more time. Just make sure you get all the voxponders, it'd be embarrassing if your lifeboats were still squawking the old idents...

The big emitter is, of course, the main drive. Now, you can play some short term tricks by adjusting the thrust levels of some of the main drive tubes, but they won't fool people long, as unless you've got a really good/sneaky crew, it'll simply look like a damaged version of the ship you're pretending not to be. The way around that is to build in a secondary drive chamber, quite possibly one designed for a wholly different vessel of a smaller class, and have the enginarium adjust the power balance between them to monkey with your drive signature.

The downside of that is, of course, that it's a long, difficult and probably fairly dangerous refit, which may or may not be tech-heresy, and it still won't fool an internal inspection without additional measures.

As for selling off captured ships, I ruled that if they turned them over at the nearest Imperial port, along with a copy of their logs (and of course, the logs of the captured ship), they could sell it through a Prize Court (Salvage laws would cover ships found without crew, or whose crew was in such dire straits that their only hope of survival was aid from another ship within the week). Whether they got to claim ships that had previously been captured by pirates would depend on how long said ship was in the hands of the pirates, and whether any of her officers still survived.
And I reckon that there's always a chance that the Prize Court would rule that she wasn't a legal prize, or judge her worth at stupidly low, or even seize her as Droits of Admiralty.

A ship with prior ownners that loses them to pirates (in the Golden Age of Sail - GAS) or privateers that was recaptured by a friendly force (privateer or national force) was actually worth more to the victors as you just turned it in for its salvage value (a quarter of the vessel and cargoe's worth) without all the messy business of prize courts with their associated fees and taxes, not to mentioned the long delays and potentially ruinous legal proceedings. It was quick and straightforward. Whilst you've eventually receive much less, the fact that you'dd receive it that much quicker and with much less fuss (if they couldn't afford to pay, you still got your money as the asset was sold or the underwriters paid up) was worth far more to a privateer (or naval force) where time was money (and you could be out cruising for prey rather than wrangling with the courts).

I wrote a generic endeavor for selling prize ships.

ENDEAVOR: SELL PRIZE SHIP(S)
Greater/Grand Endeavor, +* Profit, Variable Achievement points

*Base 2
-1 if ship is crippled
+1 if ship is at full Hull Integrity
+2 if ship has one or more archaeotech/xenotech components
+1 if ship is a Frigate
+2 if ship is a Light Cruiser or Monitor Cruiser
+3 if ship is a Cruiser
+1 per additional ship of equal of lesser value

Objective 1—Gather Buyers (Trade, potentially Criminal)—300 pts base
+200 if ship has one or more archaeotech/xenotech components
+200 if ship is a Light Cruiser or Monitor Cruiser
+300 if ship is a Cruiser

Every buyer capable of purchasing your ship is worth (2x their Profit factor)+encounter bonus in achievement points when brought into negotiations

Objective 2—Negotiate the High Bid (Trade, potentially Criminal)—300 pts base
+100 if one or more buyers has a vastly superior support network (fleet, army, bureaucracy) at the place of sale

Settling with failed bids is worth (100-relevant Profit Facotr, minimum 10)+encounter bonus in achievement points
Settling the high bid is worth (3x relevant Profit Factor)+encounter bonus) in achievement points

Objective 3—Deal with Complications (Criminal and/or Military)—300 pts base
+25 for every 100 Achievement Points past 900 the Endeavor already requires

The GM should throw at least a few wrenches into a transaction, which will grow more deadly and insidious relevant to the profit to be gained.

Example: Sell the lightly damaged Cruiser Infinite Hate
Profit+5, 1275 achievement points (+125 on Objective two condition) to complete—600/300/375 (potentially 600/400/400)

Example: Sell a trio of crippled transports
Profit +3, 900 achievement points (300/300/300)

What to do with two captured pirate ships? Start a fleet! Park them in orbit around a distant asteroid in a dead system as spares if you ever need them. Use them as escorts for your valuabletrade routes that you will establish. Lots of options other than selling them or busting them up for salvage. And unless the vessels are heretek, I can hear the screams of the Ad-Mech from here at the thought of busting up and ancient and rare machine for salvage...

On a related note, how would people handle the party wanting to trade in the frigate they started with to make it easier to buy a cruiser?

And as an afterthought, how the heck did they tow two ships back to Footfall? Grapling lines? Would'nt the plasma drives melt the lines? How did they stop the two ships slaming into each other as they were towed? And I shudder to think of what it would be like to fly through the warp with two ships trailing behind you on string.

Remember, PF isn't just about the Thrones, it's about power and prestige.

Rogue Traders are for the most part outside of the Law and can do whatever they please. A Warrant of Trade is essentially a License to Thrill. The higher your PF the less you care about Imperial Authorities (except the Inquisition of course) and after painting your Dynasty emblem on the hull and changing the transponder codes, the Navy can go fornicate with itself.

It's all about the Bling-bling, baby. A new ship in your fleet is a highly visible representation of your wealth and power. Who's more powerful? The RT with 3 ships or the RT with a fleet of 16 ships?

The bigger your Fleet, the bigger your Schwartz. So I'd add +1 PF just for owning another Raider.

Hygric said:

All good questions that have been asked before and never properly answered. In fact, I believe it started the "Tractor Beams vs. Giant-arse Tow Chains" debate on another thread.