Last Call of Cthulhu adventure I participated in was a year long thing wherein three of my characters died, were blinded or horribly maimed (their replacements always 'somehow' linked in with how they died and the 'transit' of the first char's journal). It's ultimate end saw us all dying as Singapore was nuked, but we did save Earth. For now. (Or then, as it would've been eighty-four years ago...)

With that in mind, I like to think one ought not be squeamish about Fate Point burning. If the players are really investing in their characters, work with them. Wading through baddies is one thing, but a nice sense of achievement can come from defeating a seriously cunning and skillful foe. (Themselves from the future is one I rather fancy throwing in at somepoint...) By the same token, permitting the correct degree of 'get out clauses' is a sensible thing too. Going the CoC route and having to 'bring down the mountain' is often the only vaguely viable solution, even for Astartes (look at Nightbringer ). But having that fact be too obvious too soon is no safe way to encourage player interest. Similarly, sticking to one 'type' is probably poor form too. A nice blend of 'winnable' and 'no chance' with surprising changes (the unkillable grot archenemy or the readily foilable moustache-twirling greater daemon) and often just a great big dose of exactly what it says on the tin can be alot of fun.

If players know they're up against genestealers...it's not exactly easier, is it?

Xisor said:

This (more or less) exactly ... is what I was trying to convey in my last post here.

There's nothing wrong with your players' characters having some encounters that are easily handled ... especially if they are clever and thoughtful and prepared. That said, there's also nothing wrong with putting them in un-win-able situations ... especially if they are stupid and sloppy and overly bold. The key is to make a great story ... one that keeps both them and you entertained. And don't be afraid to make them burn a fate point here and there to survive. As a balance, if they accomplish a goal with style, or beyond all expectation, you can (by RAW) award them more fate points. So, no worries, right?

Two examples of combat from my campaign:

3 acolytes (mesh vest, carapace helmet, combat shotguns and one autogun) with Rhino

vs.

20 rebels (flak vests, lasguns)

Acolytes drive right into middle of a camp packed with rebels, crush the few first under the Rhino and start shooting everything that moves. After sustaining 10 casualties in few rounds the rebels break and run just to get mowed down while they run.

End results: 20 dead rebels, no casualties to acolytes.

5 acolytes (mesh vest, carapace helmets, flak coat, combat shotguns, one long las, one autogun, a total of 60 hand grenades, 10 blast shields) with Rhino

vs.

3 heretics (no armor, autopistols)

6 mutants (no armor, assorted mix of primitive melee weapons like screwdrivers and lead pipes)

Acolytes are forced to ditch the Rhino and most of their heavy equipment (blast shields and half of their grenades) and climb up a 200 meter elevator shaft to reach the heretic den. The initial combat takes place in very cramped office space and after the first two heretics are killed in entry the remaining one starts to spray suppressive autofire above the table level, forcing acolytes to keep their heads down and try to grenade the heretic by throwing unaimed frag grenades at the general direction of the autofire. The mutants rush out behind the tables emerging in melee before first shots are fired and start to stab and club everyone so that the fight turns into a huge pilewrestling with acolytes trying to keep all the shotguns, pistols and grenades from hurting themselves...

End results: 3 dead heretics, 6 dead mutants. All acolytes are bruised and battered with few wounds. One acolyte has critical leg damage, one acolyte with some new insanity points and shaky for next 4 hours, one acolyte has spent fate point to reroll a photon flash grenade that would have blown in the elevator shaft blinding the whole party and burning out the optics from their long las

A seemingly difficul fight (3 acolytes with short range weapons against 20 rebels with lasguns) can be easy as anything in right circumstances... A seemingly easy fight (5 heavily armed acolytes against 9 unarmored heretics and mutants mostly armed with rusty screwdrivers) can be turned into a nightmare with some creative use of environment.

Polaria said:

Sweeet!

Polaria said:

This (more or less) exactly. The point being ,,, it's all about the story.

Acolytes are but invincible, I tend to have very tough fights and by the end of the game most of my acolytes tend be either low on wounds or have critical damage.

My npc's use: Autofire, Ambushes, Poison, Explosives and so on and all nifty weapons they have (Bolt Pistol, Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, Chain Sword and so on) they have "experienced" first.
You simply can't buy a Plasma Pistol at your local gunshop...

My pc's have become very reluctant in asking: Could I have that coll gun from that and that supplement...?

The last requests were something better as the Longlas for the guardsman and a Synskin for the assassin.
So they had an encounter with an Assassin wielding a Plasma Rifle (xeno-sniper-tech) and wearing a Synskin at 200 meters, several hours later they had a new rifle and a ruined synskin and a lot of....pain.

*GRIN*

Just to clarify - in my post I wasn't advocating auto-scaling. Like Baldrick, I do aim to ensure that my baddies increase in difficulty as the PCs increase in XP/equipment. That doesn't mean every single encounter is pitched at exactly the level where the PCs end up wounded but not dead, just as the "assassinate the governor/attack the local pub" example demonstrates.

But the point I was making is simply that if the OP isn't sure what level of threat will adequately challenge his acolytes, just start ramping the threat level up a bit at a time. When your group are forced to burn a fate point, you know you've exceeded the group's capabilities (unless they just rolled badly). That's the reason for having fate points - they allow you to throw stuff at the group that they *can't* handle, without needing some slightly annoying deus ex machina to allow them to escape with their lives.

Once you've established what the group can handle, you can go on to pitch your encounters at an appropriate threat level, be it "walkover" or "TPK".

I believe it's worth noting that as acolytes become more skilled and experienced, they're likely to be sent on more important and dangerous tasks by their inquisitor/interrogator, hence the idea of scaling. It should by no means be linear in regards to rank, but it's not unfeasible to start with small opposition and build from there by any means.

The loss of an ear or eye often takes acolytes down a peg.
narh i agree with whats already been said. Focus on your enviroment and other things. Acolytes in low gravity may have more toruble, or underwater? Try shooting somethng in an electro magnetic generator!

Had a great session with RejoiceFYAT.

Two players were awake/dozing at the time of the attack (they were on shifts monitoring a makeshift bug left at the Alabaster Court). Both had Light Sleeper talents. So they immediately woke the other acolytes when the door was blown and the lights went out...

I said to them. "You are all paranoid gits, so you can all grab a weapon (& an extra clip), an easy to put on piece of armour (or another weapon) and a misc item (say a torch). If you want any item else it's half an action per item."

"How long do we have?" they asked.

"You do not know. Just tell me how long you spend getting items of kit." I say.

Que a great session with the players having to use cover, taking lots of damage from those who sacrificed armour for an extra weapon, a Guardsman having to steal weapons from the attacking mercs when he realised his beloved flamer only had a 3 shot clip and the tough as nails Arbitrator started marking down how many times he's been shot through his PJs.

I think the moral of the story is, take the players out of their comfort zone and that is when the players enjoy it and there is real risk.

Santiago said:

Wait, when your players request extra equipment it turns up as random encounter loot?

Graspar said:

I'd hate to see what happens when they ask for bionics...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Priceless. ... I can see it now "Say Dave, can I see about getting a augmetic leg to replace the one that got shot off this session?"

Dave: "No problem." Next session, a bionic uber-assassin shows up to inconvenience the player-characters. Dave: "All you have to do is kill this guy, and 'poof', there's your new leg."

Sister Cat said:

There's nothing wrong with dropping pcs items they want, so long as you don't do it on command.

Otherwise, most of the advice here is pretty good. Of course, there is always the issue of putting them up against foes they can't kill for political reasons - the respected man in town who turns out to be a slaver and manipulates the town guard into chasing down the pcs makes for a difficult villain unless the characters have no qualms about killing local arbites and making their lives much more difficult. Manipulators are some of the most enjoyable villains.

Then, don't forget that - when possible - the villains will try and draw the pcs to fight on their home ground ... which should be trapped, mined, etc.

There is nothing wrong with your players being meat grinders in a straight out fight ... but smart foes don't engage in fair fights very often.

Santiago said:

Okay, I got ya. Sorry, but the whole bionics thing really tickled the heck out of me.

Sorry as this is a bit off topic...

How do other GMs handle NPC talents? Now I look at a selection of NPCs and I think. "Yeah, to make this combat challenging I'll give the main guy an extra dodge, a reroll for pinning (aka Nerves of Steel) & for his men (aka Iron Discipline), and the henchmen the dodge skill..."

I pick and choose what I need to make the combat flow at the level required for the session. I try not to rely upon giving the bad guys bigger and better guns because that sometimes causes an arms escalation in the campaign.

I do not keep with the careers defined in the guide, sometimes I do not even fulfil the pre-requisites (eg. WP may not be 30 for Iron Discipline).

I try and keep it so I can easily handle the NPCs during combat and have a manageable list of Talents that I know the NPCs can draw on. Problem is that each player will manage their own list of 20+ talents, I've got to manage a talent list for 10s of NPCs & have a enemy force that can challenge the PCs. In non combat situations a long talent list is okay but during combat with everyone else wanting a go, I've got to be quick so the players do not get impatient.

I don't think about what will challenge the players. I just make a senario that seems appropriate to what the mission is, maybe it will be easy for the players maybe it turns out to be really hard.

I just make a set fight what the enemy has where they are how they plan to fight, and let the PC's get cracking. I like the strange tactics the players will come up with given something like this.

This is mostly for when the players are attacking something, the same thing works for when the foe is hunting the players. If they are hiding in a forest maybe search teams working in a grid pattern will lok for them. Or something.

Currently my players are still sort of low rank, so I don't often need talents like Iron disipline (mostly because the psyker is a total Telekenisis freak with no mind affecting powers) I don't ever follow the careers for NPC's I just give them talents and skills that seem like somehthing they should have based on how the character should be. The only "boss" as it were I've run this campaign was a traitor marine from the purge, it wasn't meant to be a fight just something to illustrate how little the other side was messing around. Naturally before the players could finish running away two fate points were burnt, one from the crazy assasin who stayed behind to "hold off" the marine, another from the adept (played by random people in the party because the person who plays him never shows up) to avoid being broken over the marines knee. No I don't balence fights, I know what I want to achieve and the players better be ready to deal with foes from within without and beyond!