Good evening everyone

I'd love to get some feedback on an article posted on my blog in regards to the upcoming Imperial veterans release.

www.thatsnomoon.info/​blog/bring-on-the-veterans

Cheers

I agree with most of this stuff, but one of the biggest things I'm looking forward to about the TIE/D title is that it is an incredible threat to any moderately low AGI ship. Miranda? It's going to be easy to hammer her down once you get a single Ion shot through. Poe with R2? 3 hits once and there's nothing he can do, no regeneration, and your whole squad will be shooting him. Big, mobile large ships? You'll need 2 tokens, but you'll get a few free turns of knowing where they'll be here and there, and that can be all the difference.

I certainly should have added to the article that I'm looking forward to seeing what master pieces you can come up with Bio.

I certainly should have added to the article that I'm looking forward to seeing what master pieces you can come up with Bio.

You mean what I come up with then he tweaks and takes all the credit.

I certainly should have added to the article that I'm looking forward to seeing what master pieces you can come up with Bio.

You mean what I come up with then he tweaks and takes all the credit.

Har. Har.

You left out the "I" in Imperial right after the TIE/x7. I wasn't proof reading but that really jumped out.

I kind of doubt the Glaive will be 33 points. 3 with the x7 title and Juke just seems so good. Of course so are the Contracted Scouts...

Still though if they are 34 points, 2 of them with a loaded Inquisitor or Carnor Jax sounds great.

Great article!

Im more excited for Vets than Wave 8!!!

Oh yeah, I still need to buy wave 8!

This is the first real expansion I've actually done pre-release testing with and I've now twice had a Delta Squad with the x7 title end up being the last one left alive along with an opposing Soontir Fel. Both times the Delta and Fel went at it for 4-5 rounds more before one of them finally died from 1 damage getting through. (Was split 1-1)

I think the only real miss in the article is that the x7 title does effectively close the gap between the Defender's price and its "ideal" price. Depending on whose estimates you go by, the Delta Squadron Pilot is somewhere between 3 and 7 points overpriced for what it accomplishes. With the x7 title, that ship gets a straight-up 2 point discount, plus a free action-equivalent that triggers on about half of your dial--including the famous and useful white K-turn. Usually, extra tokens cost 2-3 points and extra actions cost 3 and some other restriction like a stress token. This one is completely free, with a light restriction, so that ability is probably worth another two-ish points. I don't think the TIE/D title will always be a great buy on the cheap generic Defenders, but the x7 title is going to make them really efficient fighters.

Honestly I'm most excited for x7. /d is powerful but defenders don't need that much help as a cannon jousting ship, that's what they try to do already and /d makes the glass cannon hit harder but still be glassy with naked evades. X7 makes them tanky buggers by encouraging the zoom and boom with a free shield each turn essentially. It also means 28 points gets you a delta which is pretty gross value since it's a delta that will have an evade no matter what else it does (I haven't had much difficulty always doing 3+ maneuvers yet).

As a huge fan of the old TIE figher game (I remember buying the TIE CD when it first came out) I have not been this excited for a release since the Defender was 1st announced. I plan on pairing a Delta/Onyx-x7 with Vader and a /D Vassery with a tractor. Get the best of both worlds IMO.

I think the only real miss in the article is that the x7 title does effectively close the gap between the Defender's price and its "ideal" price. Depending on whose estimates you go by, the Delta Squadron Pilot is somewhere between 3 and 7 points overpriced for what it accomplishes. With the x7 title, that ship gets a straight-up 2 point discount, plus a free action-equivalent that triggers on about half of your dial--including the famous and useful white K-turn. Usually, extra tokens cost 2-3 points and extra actions cost 3 and some other restriction like a stress token. This one is completely free, with a light restriction, so that ability is probably worth another two-ish points. I don't think the TIE/D title will always be a great buy on the cheap generic Defenders, but the x7 title is going to make them really efficient fighters.

Not that it matters, but is there an estimated value for the upgrade slots that it loses w/ x/7? Because I don't think it quite bridges the gap as much as, say, Chardraan Refit did.

Still makes them viable, but I'm not 100% sure the cost is actually "perfect" as some math proposes.

I kind of doubt the Glaive will be 33 points. 3 with the x7 title and Juke just seems so good. Of course so are the Contracted Scouts...

Still though if they are 34 points, 2 of them with a loaded Inquisitor or Carnor Jax sounds great.

X7s with Juke seem really excellent (and I'm looking forward to running it), but it scares me a little, because the 1-bank is one of my most used moves right now. That move sucks with an x7/Juke Defender. There's going to be a different set of movement patterns necessary for the x7 compared to the TIE/D, and I'm not yet sure what it will take to get the most out of it.

l

X7s with Juke seem really excellent (and I'm looking forward to running it), but it scares me a little, because the 1-bank is one of my most used moves right now. That move sucks with an x7/Juke Defender. There's going to be a different set of movement patterns necessary for the x7 compared to the TIE/D, and I'm not yet sure what it will take to get the most out of it.

Defenders currently have conflicting emotions because they like to 1 bank to keep the hlc they're usually carrying online for as long as possible but their dial likes the zoom and boom of 4k -> 3 straight or bank -> 4k as they dance and joust. X7 lets them embrace that and you just fly them fast and loose. The extra evade also makes barrel rolls feel much better since it's not naked greens. The switch between mindsets on flying them is a little tricky but if you just go into the game planning for hitting 0 1-2 speed maneuvers you force yourself into a different groove that still feels pretty good.

I think the only real miss in the article is that the x7 title does effectively close the gap between the Defender's price and its "ideal" price. Depending on whose estimates you go by, the Delta Squadron Pilot is somewhere between 3 and 7 points overpriced for what it accomplishes. With the x7 title, that ship gets a straight-up 2 point discount, plus a free action-equivalent that triggers on about half of your dial--including the famous and useful white K-turn. Usually, extra tokens cost 2-3 points and extra actions cost 3 and some other restriction like a stress token. This one is completely free, with a light restriction, so that ability is probably worth another two-ish points. I don't think the TIE/D title will always be a great buy on the cheap generic Defenders, but the x7 title is going to make them really efficient fighters.

Not that it matters, but is there an estimated value for the upgrade slots that it loses w/ x/7? Because I don't think it quite bridges the gap as much as, say, Chardraan Refit did.

Still makes them viable, but I'm not 100% sure the cost is actually "perfect" as some math proposes.

From my perspective, the estimated value of an upgrade slot is usually zero. Since each upgrade card has its own price, and theoretically that price is the same as the upgrade's value, the ship should be equally balanced with or without the upgrade.

Clearly that theory isn't correct in every instance. The TLT is probably a little underpriced, for instance, so we should price access to the turret slot at the difference between the TLT's value and its price. A single crew slot is probably worth 0, but there are so many interesting interactions and synergies among crew that a second crew slot is worth more than 0. The combination of crew and astromech (either Scum or Rebel) is worth more than 0 because there are so many combos there that reinforce each other.

But upgrade slots are still worth approximately 0--even those strong synergies, where they exist, probably shouldn't exceed 1 point.

I kind of doubt the Glaive will be 33 points. 3 with the x7 title and Juke just seems so good. Of course so are the Contracted Scouts...

Still though if they are 34 points, 2 of them with a loaded Inquisitor or Carnor Jax sounds great.

X7s with Juke seem really excellent (and I'm looking forward to running it), but it scares me a little, because the 1-bank is one of my most used moves right now. That move sucks with an x7/Juke Defender. There's going to be a different set of movement patterns necessary for the x7 compared to the TIE/D, and I'm not yet sure what it will take to get the most out of it.

I'm not sure you need to try and get that evade every time. You'll probably want to setup the first joust with a 3+ move, but after that I think you need to do whatever move is most beneficial. Otherwise you are going to push yourself out of position too many times and that evade will be worthless. Even if you only get it twice (which you shouldn't with the K-turn), that defender is probably worth its points.

I wonder if we will get another preview. There are two cards we don't know the point costs to: Glaive and Maarek (he could be 35 points). There are 3 cards we don't know what they do and those bomb tokens, but they are probably just something to do with the mission in the expansion.

I think the only real miss in the article is that the x7 title does effectively close the gap between the Defender's price and its "ideal" price. Depending on whose estimates you go by, the Delta Squadron Pilot is somewhere between 3 and 7 points overpriced for what it accomplishes. With the x7 title, that ship gets a straight-up 2 point discount, plus a free action-equivalent that triggers on about half of your dial--including the famous and useful white K-turn. Usually, extra tokens cost 2-3 points and extra actions cost 3 and some other restriction like a stress token. This one is completely free, with a light restriction, so that ability is probably worth another two-ish points. I don't think the TIE/D title will always be a great buy on the cheap generic Defenders, but the x7 title is going to make them really efficient fighters.

Not that it matters, but is there an estimated value for the upgrade slots that it loses w/ x/7? Because I don't think it quite bridges the gap as much as, say, Chardraan Refit did.

Still makes them viable, but I'm not 100% sure the cost is actually "perfect" as some math proposes.

From my perspective, the estimated value of an upgrade slot is usually zero. Since each upgrade card has its own price, and theoretically that price is the same as the upgrade's value, the ship should be equally balanced with or without the upgrade.

Clearly that theory isn't correct in every instance. The TLT is probably a little underpriced, for instance, so we should price access to the turret slot at the difference between the TLT's value and its price. A single crew slot is probably worth 0, but there are so many interesting interactions and synergies among crew that a second crew slot is worth more than 0. The combination of crew and astromech (either Scum or Rebel) is worth more than 0 because there are so many combos there that reinforce each other.

But upgrade slots are still worth approximately 0--even those strong synergies, where they exist, probably shouldn't exceed 1 point.

The upgrade slots on the Defender in particular don't have really any synergy. Missiles aren't underpriced, and neither are cannons, and they don't really interact with EPTs too much.

I agree with most of this stuff, but one of the biggest things I'm looking forward to about the TIE/D title is that it is an incredible threat to any moderately low AGI ship. Miranda? It's going to be easy to hammer her down once you get a single Ion shot through. Poe with R2? 3 hits once and there's nothing he can do, no regeneration, and your whole squad will be shooting him. Big, mobile large ships? You'll need 2 tokens, but you'll get a few free turns of knowing where they'll be here and there, and that can be all the difference.

So basically we're moving towards the Brobot meta? Not that many other ships that are agile enough to avoid most tractor and ion shots and big enough to deal with it if they actually get hit.

I agree with most of this stuff, but one of the biggest things I'm looking forward to about the TIE/D title is that it is an incredible threat to any moderately low AGI ship. Miranda? It's going to be easy to hammer her down once you get a single Ion shot through. Poe with R2? 3 hits once and there's nothing he can do, no regeneration, and your whole squad will be shooting him. Big, mobile large ships? You'll need 2 tokens, but you'll get a few free turns of knowing where they'll be here and there, and that can be all the difference.

So basically we're moving towards the Brobot meta? Not that many other ships that are agile enough to avoid most tractor and ion shots and big enough to deal with it if they actually get hit.

Maybe? It's hard to say. They can often avoid one ion shot, so it could take a while to get them ioned since they need 2 tokens, but once they are ioned, it could be pretty bad thing for them. Especially if they get their second token after an S-loop or something.

I agree with most of this stuff, but one of the biggest things I'm looking forward to about the TIE/D title is that it is an incredible threat to any moderately low AGI ship. Miranda? It's going to be easy to hammer her down once you get a single Ion shot through. Poe with R2? 3 hits once and there's nothing he can do, no regeneration, and your whole squad will be shooting him. Big, mobile large ships? You'll need 2 tokens, but you'll get a few free turns of knowing where they'll be here and there, and that can be all the difference.

So basically we're moving towards the Brobot meta? Not that many other ships that are agile enough to avoid most tractor and ion shots and big enough to deal with it if they actually get hit.

Maybe? It's hard to say. They can often avoid one ion shot, so it could take a while to get them ioned since they need 2 tokens, but once they are ioned, it could be pretty bad thing for them. Especially if they get their second token after an S-loop or something.

It also seems like low-PS Ion Bombs or Conner Nets would be a solid counter.

To me the Achilles' heel of Brobots has always been (aside from stress control) the fact that they rely so much on repositioning that they struggle against higher PS in general, and higher PS aces/arc-dodgers in particular. And since those ships will still do fairly well against Defenders (not to mention the fact that PS7+ Defenders are capable of outflying Brobots in the hands of a strong player), I'm not sure Brobots will get stronger than they are now in the post-Imperial Veterans meta.

l

X7s with Juke seem really excellent (and I'm looking forward to running it), but it scares me a little, because the 1-bank is one of my most used moves right now. That move sucks with an x7/Juke Defender. There's going to be a different set of movement patterns necessary for the x7 compared to the TIE/D, and I'm not yet sure what it will take to get the most out of it.

Defenders currently have conflicting emotions because they like to 1 bank to keep the hlc they're usually carrying online for as long as possible but their dial likes the zoom and boom of 4k -> 3 straight or bank -> 4k as they dance and joust. X7 lets them embrace that and you just fly them fast and loose. The extra evade also makes barrel rolls feel much better since it's not naked greens. The switch between mindsets on flying them is a little tricky but if you just go into the game planning for hitting 0 1-2 speed maneuvers you force yourself into a different groove that still feels pretty good.

I don't really see it as conflicting emotions, I see it as a different dial tool for different scenarios. Need to bug out or close fast? 3+ speed move. Need to creep in around an asteroid? 1 bank.

All I have to say is the first very crew member I'm putting on my fancy new TIE Shuttle is yo momma!

To me the Achilles' heel of Brobots has always been (aside from stress control) the fact that they rely so much on repositioning that they struggle against higher PS in general, and higher PS aces/arc-dodgers in particular. And since those ships will still do fairly well against Defenders (not to mention the fact that PS7+ Defenders are capable of outflying Brobots in the hands of a strong player), I'm not sure Brobots will get stronger than they are now in the post-Imperial Veterans meta.

You'd think that, but there is a long list of things that scare me more than Soontir Fel. He just doesn't do enough damage to really worry me, at least the way I run my big, stupid 50 point Defenders. He doesn't do reliable damage at Range 3 against an AG3 ship (with 7 hit points), and and Range 1-2 autothrusters stop working so he has to get really worried about those 4 red dice slamming through his defenses. I can guard against a Range 1 shot with a supporting ship, and just go to town on his support, because he can't do enough damage to worry me before I can put the ship count in my favor. Do I sometimes lose to Fel? Sure, but him and Vader are two very maneuverable ships that I am pretty okay facing.

l

X7s with Juke seem really excellent (and I'm looking forward to running it), but it scares me a little, because the 1-bank is one of my most used moves right now. That move sucks with an x7/Juke Defender. There's going to be a different set of movement patterns necessary for the x7 compared to the TIE/D, and I'm not yet sure what it will take to get the most out of it.

Defenders currently have conflicting emotions because they like to 1 bank to keep the hlc they're usually carrying online for as long as possible but their dial likes the zoom and boom of 4k -> 3 straight or bank -> 4k as they dance and joust. X7 lets them embrace that and you just fly them fast and loose. The extra evade also makes barrel rolls feel much better since it's not naked greens. The switch between mindsets on flying them is a little tricky but if you just go into the game planning for hitting 0 1-2 speed maneuvers you force yourself into a different groove that still feels pretty good.

I don't really see it as conflicting emotions, I see it as a different dial tool for different scenarios. Need to bug out or close fast? 3+ speed move. Need to creep in around an asteroid? 1 bank.

Nope, no more dialing in less than three speed maneuvers anymore.

Gotta go fast!