My store received a Warhammer Invasion Kit League this morning. A few minutes later, we were sorely disappointed.

Why ?

No official rules.

A few suggestions explained in fewer words. I don't mind a few options, but that's not even barely enough.

No storyline or any campaign: two short paragraphs about 2 characters is not a story. When I saw the rulebook was titled "Storyline Campaign", I expected more than that.

Is this what my players are paying for ? A tournament format we have to come up ourselves with, two pins, a very medium quality binder and no playmat ? For 30 $ ? (15$ for the shipment to Belgium).

I could say the very same fhing about the Cthulhu Kit League 2.

We will probably run the same rules as Cthulhu League 1, but I would have nice to see Fantasy Flight a little more involved in these.

I don't wish to produce any kind of heated thread on this forum, and I won't, but I'm very disappointed

I think their point is that it allows people to run it however they want to run it based on their players wishes.

Yes, the idea is to allow each store and tourney organizer to fashion things their own way rather than force strict guidelines on them. The storyline bit, is that your games will get to influence the direction the game develops, not that there is a storyline you must adhere to. There should have been a playmat though. If you did not get one I'd highly recommend contacting FFG immediately about that.

Yes, yes, but we can do our own tourney every time we want.

After having played Cthulhu League 1, we expected a lot more, especially for Warhammer where you have to fidelize your new players. Cthulhu League 1 was a nice set up, allowing both expert and new players to discover the game and its building processes with some goodies (character cards!). Having to choose between two cards is fun, but not enough. It's not concrete enough for starting players.

What's the point in having an official League if the prizing is quite poor, if we don't have any official rules and if there is no fluff story to tell ?

Why make rules and pigeon hole people into them when its easier to provide the support and then let people do things how they want to. I rather like that approach as it allows everyone to tailor the league for then own unique group.

Toqtamish said:

Well, I don't need to spend 30$ to do what I want.

Another game, another time: Horrorclix. Each week, we had a new card and a new scenario to play with usually new rules. If we didn't like these rules, we modified them. But we had a base to work from and something to surprise us, both players and organizers..

Cthulhu League 1, we modified a little the rules for our own player-base.

There is always a little tweaking to do.

Here, there's nothing to work from. They could have, at the very least, put a few detailed suggestions. Or a very detailed storyline to involve players in their faction and heroes.

I can't help but be disappointed.

I somewhat agree. Having trouble deciding how to use the kit at the moment...

It's the first one.

See... some games league/tourney kits actually require you to play them as dictated by the rules for that event. If you change or tweak them technically you violate the End-User Agreement and they can stop supporting your store... now obviously FFG (and any game company which remembers who is really in charge here) has no reason to go that route, but there was a lot of suggestions and debate back in the earlier days of tourneys and leagues where people were complaining about the special rules and talking about how they changed them or just ignored them... Why should FFG put the time (and remember time is money) into creating a detailed story or special rules event when 60-80% of their player base is not going to play the event as envisioned?

Now you may still argue that the kit is not worth $30 without that... an dI would argue that the material in there is worth $30 retail price (again if you didn't get a playmat contact FFG immediately) but more important to a competitive player is the pins. Not only are they some snazzy little keepsake that you can wear to your play sessions and remind everyone you are the reigning league champ for Order/Destruction, but they serve as your golden ticket into the exclusive, invite only, FFG run tournament. There was a rumor that the tournament would actually take place at FFG headquarters. Just getting in and seeing the place and chatting with people like Christian, Eric, and Nate would be cool, but to face off against the other players from all over and your chance to prove you are the best... yeah, that sounds like it is worth it.

But I'll tell you what, and this is an honest offer, if you really want some fluff and special rules for this league, I'll write something up for you. It'll at the least give you a springboard for you guys to make the tweaks you want.

Will there be some kind of invite only tournament in Europe?

Good question. Send an email to FFG and ask. I hope so, though it would be boss for the EU-ians to travel here for something like this (not that I would expect it).

Edit: Some problems with quote. Sorting them.

• See... some games league/tourney kits actually require you to play them as dictated by the rules for that event. If you change or tweak them technically you violate the End-User Agreement and they can stop supporting your store... now obviously FFG (and any game company which remembers who is really in charge here) has no reason to go that route, but there was a lot of suggestions and debate back in the earlier days of tourneys and leagues where people were complaining about the special rules and talking about how they changed them or just ignored them... Why should FFG put the time (and remember time is money) into creating a detailed story or special rules event when 60-80% of their player base is not going to play the event as envisioned?

Well, what were we supposed to do when there were too many players in our Cthulhu League 1 or when almost all players didn't want to "exchange" (even for a short time) their cards ? Sack them and play with 3 other peoples instead of 15-18 ? They're always some tweaks to do and as far as everything is still fair for every players involved, that's all that matter.

But that's beyond the point.

• *Now you may still argue that the kit is not worth $30 without that... an dI would argue that the material in there is worth $30 retail price (again if you didn't get a playmat contact FFG immediately) but more important to a competitive player is the pins. Not only are they some snazzy little keepsake that you can wear to your play sessions and remind everyone you are the reigning league champ for Order/Destruction, but they serve as your golden ticket into the exclusive, invite only, FFG run tournament. There was a rumor that the tournament would actually take place at FFG headquarters. Just getting in and seeing the place and chatting with people like Christian, Eric, and Nate would be cool, but to face off against the other players from all over and your chance to prove you are the best... yeah, that sounds like it is worth it.

I don't know if inflation got up recently, but $30 is a hell of a price for two pinz. :-) Even if we can participate an invite-only tournament in the States the following year, which is less likely for some European players.

• But I'll tell you what, and this is an honest offer, if you really want some fluff and special rules for this league, I'll write something up for you. It'll at the least give you a springboard for you guys to make the tweaks you want.

It's not a honest offer, it's a great one. But I'd rather launch a new thread and ask there how people planned to organize their tourney and to include a storyline, if at all. I hope you'll give some insights there. ;-)

Edit: I've got some problems with multiple quotes in the same post. I put dormouse's quote in italic instead.

Yeah, I'm not terribly enthused by this either. League play is somewhat over-rated, imho. Having worked at FFG I know that they're convinced that it's a "must-have" to "build community" but imho, if you make a great game, players should be playing it, regardless of League stuff. You shouldn't have to supplement a game's inherent quality with league play simply to keep a game "hot."

I also think it's a huge mistake to show the community 2 cards and then say "Hey, only one of these will be in the game and it's pretty much something that not a single gamer/customer will be able to control." It'd be different if they had said, "Hey, one of these will enter play EARLIER and one will be a later card based on League Results." But as it stands, only one of these cool cards will enter play (according to FFG) at all. That stinks, imho.

And lest I be misunderstood, I'm not saying that it's a negative to at least have the League play offered but I'm not seeing a lot of incentive to participate nor are there very many places even doing it - which is sad here in Minnesota, the homeland of FFG. I've also never liked special members-only style tournaments, particularly in a gaming environment where lady luck still holds heavy sway. One bad match and a player who may very well be one of the best in the world at that particular LCG, could be left out. That's un-cool in my book.

This is off topic but it's something I'm curious about league play:
Do opponents get to see each other's deck before a match ?

Most likely no, players can't see eachothers decks before playing.

Wytefang said:

I agree with pretty much everything Wytefang here said, but I've singled out this segment to highlight - in my experience, giving one faction a boost and another The Shaft, and then directly correlating that to tournament results, is usuallly quite unpopular.

That is not how it works. The Alignment that wins gets to choose their card, but the other side while not getting the proposed card will still be gettingthe same number of cards as the other, with the same generalo power level spread between the races. The point of this league prize is the choice versus randomness.

As to the price of the league kit, and the worth of the pins you can look at it this way, two pins, two tickets into a con for a championship tournamen for a day is usually $10-$25. That is worth the price of the kit. I can't make any statements about our European players, they'll have to figure out whether it is worth it to them to purchase the kit. I'd recommend talking to FFG about a EU invitational. Certainly worth discussing.

I strongly disagree with Wytefang. I think League play is a very great element, attracts lots of attention, and provides a very easy buy-in for new gamers. No one is forced to take part, if your group just wants to do a weekly game night of the Core Set or constructed you can. The League Play is for those people, groups, stores that enjoy that format.

We're not referring to how the League handles the card pool used in the league but rather how the Voting for either Order or Destruction cards to be added to the game will occur (Tethys or The Changeling).

I respect that you disagree with me, Dormouse. League play isn't for everyone. I've had far more success showing this game and teaching it to personal friends that I did when I have held a couple of Demo days at local FLGS. Generally speaking, people go to a FLGS to either buy something specific, maybe browse a bit, or play in some tournament that they're already involved with. Most people don't go to their FLGS to learn a new game or be taught a new game. Not saying it doesn't happen, it does, but it's a bit less likely of an attendance reason. That's why simply having a League doesn't really generate new players, per se, imho.

But as I also said, it can't hurt any, I suppose. Though I think this first kit isn't terribly exciting. But since I'm not terribly intrigued by League Play (yet, anyway), I don't mind.

Having a league does encourage new players. People are more likely to play a game that they know others play rather than a game they might be able to get some friends to play. The league lets people know they will have others to play with and against after they purchase the game.

I agree with Toqtamish: Leagues are a good way to show that a new game is town and that X players are already at it. It's also a good way to get "almost-player" out of their caves: You know, these guys buying the cards but who never show up to play.

Toqtamish said:

The thing is, though, that with your friends, you control who you game with and you can play with people you know and like. It's not very often that I'm comfortable gaming with random nerds, considering that the majority of us having serious social issues (smelling bad, poor sportsmanship, rules lawyering, cheaters).

So the appeal of playing with random gamers whom I've never really met isn't always as appealing as some might think. In general, I'd rather hang out with my fellow geek/nerd gamers but with a new game like this, I'd rather teach and develop my own friendly group that can get together on a moment's notice and such.

Who's to say you can't do both.

when I got back into L5R some friends and I all got into it and we visited the store in the city to play with the existing group there.

Wytefang said:

I dont know what kind of people live there, where you a living. I am demoing games in general at fairs for the fun and especially WHI brought some cool people to my demo table and no one was smelling bad or a poor gamer. Maybe it has do to something with the length of the hears. I can say, that any people with a decisive length of hear or a special created beard (or both) are used to be really nice at fairs/stores.

Well, in my experience with both online PC gamers and board gamers, foreign players (non-USA) are WAY cooler in general than their equivalent USA counterparts. I'd gladly play with some random Euro-gamer than a random US-gamer. I have no idea why the foreign gamers seem cooler to me but they just do. That's not to say that I don't discover some fun USA gamers at random places but usually that's the exception, rather than the rule.