Okay, i haven't played 3rd ed yet.

I will probably get it. I have to say i am very nervious about the prospect, but hey well see, maybe it will suprise me.

But i have to say, i am going to be paying a lot of money to get it, yet from what froo said in the 'Worth getting' thead, it only gives you enough componants for three players. I have only once had a group of three players. This seems a really bad choice to me.

If that is accurate it seems somewhat mad to me.

You can have more than 3 PCs if you don't mind sharing the occasional card, or photocopying some of the material.

Some player groups have avoided ANY sharing of materials, even with four PCs. That probably took some planning ahead of time, though.

The upcoming Adventurer's Toolkit has enough cards to add a fourth PC, with no card sharing.

Some people are cool with that, others aren't.

For me, I rarely ever play an RPG with more than four players. So, personally, I'm cool with this.

But it is a problem for people who like to play in larger groups, and/or don't want to be hassled with sharing components, or photocopying materials.

I've run three sessions now with five players each (and partially new players in each). Building and running characters by sharing components is little different than doing so out of a single book. Easier, in fact, as you can just pass around piles of cards and jot down your notes from there.

Come on. I am paying 60ish quid, and i need to photocopy stuff.

zombieneighbours said:

Like I said, some people have had no problems with sharing the occasional card or two.

But, like I also said, if that bothers you, and the idea photocopying is beneath you, then this game isn't for you.

morskittar said:

In fairness, I can get four WOD corebooks for about that much, but more than that, I personally don't have to personally do it, because my players will buy those books for themselves. No ownership issues which would come up if we pooled money to buy a copy.

It isn't benieth me, its just annoying.

zombieneighbours said:

Ahh... yeah. I'm the guy who always ended up having to buy the books anyway (usually buy a few, share them amongst four or five people), so 100 bucks and sharing cards is an attractive option. Sounds like your setup doesn't take it the form factor nearly as well.

I'd rather share something that costs me between £15 to £20 than something that costs £60ish.

zombieneighbours said:

Certainly understandable. I've found there are benefits to having cards to share that are worth the cost, but if the price doesn't work for you... it doesn't work!

morskittar said:

I wouldn't really mind if the cards to share around option ment that i didn't need anything else at all. Or, if the price was reduced, and such components came on a CD and i could print out as many as i needed.

Don't forget you are getting 4 books, plus dice, not to mention all the components, for the money you put down.

In other RPGs when a PC gets a talent, they write that information down on a piece of paper (usually the character sheet), they don't rely on always keeping the book open in front of them. In WFRP they get a card instead of the book. In other RPGs, if two players take the same talent, they both write the information down on paper. In WFRP they can share the card, or one (or both) can write the information down on a piece of paper (or have the card photocopied). WFRP is less work, because they can use the card, but it doesn't obviate the ability to do what they've always done and write the information down.

Dvang:

In my experience, most players i know are going to want a copy of each of the books for themselves anyway, regardless.

And i really wouldn't need any more dice, save that this game makes them neccissary. So that isn't a bonus

If i am spending £60 i really don't think i should have to have my players share any of the components.

Another issue, and this is one is very specific to me, is that this box is going to way a lot. If it is all needed, i don't fancy having to carry it the eight miles to my game

I will do away with the box very quickly. Either a few smaller card cases, or sheets of cards in a folder should do it.

If WFRP is going to be so hard on you, to expensive etc. then I do not understand why you at all would bother buying it, save your money and energy for a game you want 100%, better for you and your group.

zombieneighbours said:

Are you the GM? If so, then your players should be hiking eight miles to get to YOU! Ha HA!

zombieneighbours said:

As said, some people do and don't like the concept. Take it as you will.

That said, if you have a regular group of friends you RP with and they number more than 3, why not have everyone invest a bit of their money and buy the set so it's not as onerous and you're not stuck holding the $$ bag alone? Even better, if you have enough players to only 20q each and can still get 2 sets, why not do that? Shoudln't that get you the dice/books/cards you need for up to 6?

I think Kjett has the gist of it. If you don't like the cost for what you get, find a game that you like just as much and is less expensive and you'll have 100% more enjoyment out of it.

Because i have been playing since the early nineties, have played through several editions and want to see what the new edition is like before i make a judgement on it.

Because i am a completionist

I know after the last ten years its a really weird concept to a lot of people but descent is a very healthy thing. These things are issues. Such as the need to carry around a lot of material like the 'attitude monitor'(i think thats right), that might have been more usefully presented as part of a character sheet is an issue, cause the box will way a lot.

Paying lots, but not really getting enough bits to deal with the industry standard sized game group, is an issue. It isn't a matter of expense, it is a matter of poor planning in the production phase. Given that the players tool kit is comming up for quick release, one might even be forgiven for thinking it deliberate.

It does no one any good to pretend these issues don't exist at all. I hope, that WFRP 3rd edition will be a good game, i look forwards to trying it. Will it be the game i have loved for the almost the last twenty years? No. Clearly not. Will it be interesting in its own right? That i have yet to decide.

keltheos said:

Because groups change with time. One of my week day group recently moved to china for work for instance. There are ownership issues raised by it, and frankly i don't need that hastle.

It isn't the cost, though the cost is significant, it is that i expect more from something that costs that much. That is a different issue.

Necrozius said:

That isn't an option.

Zombie:

Oh, I certainly understand people's desire to have their own copy of the rulebooks. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that the cards are essentially part of the rulebooks. The careers, talents, and actions are all needed. Now, you can make copies or write down the information for use in-game and avoid the need to actually use the cards. However, just purchasing the rulebooks separately are not enough to be able to play the game. Someone will need to get the cards. Right now, it all means the Core Set. The game has just been released, so focus is on getting sales of the Core Set. It is designed to be a 'group purchase', whether that means a single individual (like the GM) buys it for the group, or people in the group pitch in together to purchase it. At some point in the future this conept might change, and FFG might sell the rulebooks separately. Again, though, without the various card information you won't be able to fully conceptualize PCs and the game. Yes, it's a big chunk of change to plop down at once on a single "thing", but remember it is actually 4 rulebooks plus dice plus a lot of tokens, cards, and other components rather than a single rulebook.

While the dice aren't necessarily a "bonus", you are buying them with the set. Custom dice are about $1 per *side*, depending on the quanitity you order (and the price usually doesn't start dropping until you get over 100). So getting them at about $1 per *die* is pretty good. My point is that the monetary value of the physical components included in the box is well worth the amount you pay for the Core Set. This is even more true if you can purchase through Amazon for their discounted $62 price, or any other vendor that sells below the retail (since if retail is worth it, then anything less than retail is REALLY good).

The box is a little hefty, at about 6.5 pounds, but it isn't that bad. It doesn't feel any worse than what I take to my normal Dark Heresy game nights. I take my hardcover DH rulebook, Inquisitor's handbook, Rogue Trader hardcover, paper and character sheet, pencils, dice, and miniatures. The two hardcover books alone weigh quite a bit. So, I already have a fair-size bag I carry to game night. It's not any more difficult to bring the WFRP box instead of all that, and I don't imagine it's much different for a lot of players.

I only ever game with three other players, so it works for me.

I wonder what marketing FFG did that suggested 3 players and a GM made sense. I understand that the Adventurer's Toolkit will add enough for a fourth player as well as more careers, etc, but did FFG do any surveying to find optimum play group size? The mechanical need for a certain group size o fill party roles is one of the biggest turnoffs for my group playing D&D4. We still play, mind you, but it is limiting to a degree.

zombieneighbours said:

And you never print out character sheets for your other RPGs. Or is this your first?

Magnus von Bildhofen said:

I kind of get the impression that FFG wanted to include the contents of the Adventurer's Toolkit in the Core Set, but their marketing research led them to decide that the $100 MSRP was the most they could charge, so they figured out a way to split the contents up into two products. Seriously, who is buying the Core Set that won't buy the AT? Whether you need the components to add a 4th player or not, you want the additional careers. Likewise, if you wanted to allow groups to more easily add more than one additional player (and not force sharing of components), a player's pack with the standard action cards and counters (tokens, stance pieces, etc.) would make more sense than the AT. Who wants to end up with multiples of just the handful of careers in the AT just to add a 5th or 6th player? Somebody figured out a $100 CS and a $30 AT would sell better than a single $130 CS.

zombieneighbours said:

zombieneighbours said:

Sounds like you are making some pretty big judgements now. . .

zombieneighbours said:

Don't think anyone here thinks decent is a BAD thing to start with. In fact, I am decenting to your judgements.

Don't get hung up on the bits like the cards and stance meter. They work Beutifully . For example, I've started a campaign, and played the demo once, and run it three times now. In all that time no player EVER picked up a book and started leafing through it to figure out what they could or could not do; nor did they have to flip through a book to figure out how a mechanic worked in order to do the thing they wanted to do.

This represents a total of fourteen people who HAD NO IDEA HOW TO PLAY THE GAME! That's incredible. The bits work. After character creation you can leave the pencils and pads of paper at the house. You'll need one guy to take notes related to solving whatever mystery is in the adventure, but that is it. That should save you some weight right there.

zombieneighbours said:

You get enough bits to deal with 6 characters, if you don't mind sharing some cards similar to how you share multiple rulebooks now. It will also mean some other minor inconveniences (waiting for the dice pools to be built, using pennies or assigning one color on the recharge tokens to count as two tokens, etc.) which are still not deal breakers given all the other great stuff. It's kind of like driving a car for the first time instead of riding a horse, and complaining because you have to put gas in it every few days.

No one is pretending the issues don't exist. But until you've actually played the game, you don't even know if these really are issues.

For the record, I picked up my second set today. . .