hello

does a familiar take benefits from the command ability of an hero?

in effect the wolf when attacking with the white die can take the bonus if an hero with command ability is within 3 space from the wolf?

thanks

Yes. Though represented by markers, familiars are figures, which is all Command requires.

James McMurray said:

Thanks a lot we applied it correct i just wasn't 100% sure

James McMurray said:

May I ask what your basis is for this conclusion? I am aware of no rule that says familiars are figures, and familiars are treated unlike figures in numerous ways: they don't block movement or LOS, they don't have wounds and are unaffected by attacks, they cannot open/close doors or perform other movement actions (except when specifically allowed by a special rule), etc.

Antistone said:

+1
Antistone is perhaps being extremely polite. Familiars are not figures. They are not once referred to as figures ('tokens' or 'markers' usually) and have so many rules differences between them and the general rules for figures that it is ... strange... that anyone should think of them as 'figures'.

If they are not figures then they are not affected by command (and similar effects), which explicitly refer to figures.

The JitD rulebook says that they are figures, albeit through indirect grammar and not a straightforward "x is y" statement. Since it happens twice in the section where familiars are defined, I doubt it's accidental.

"Familiars move like heroes, except that they can move through enemy figures and can end their movement in the same space as another figure ." p. 14, bullet 3

"Familiars may occupy the same space as another figure " p. 14, bullet 4

The only way for something to end its movement in the same space as "another figure" is if it is a figure itself.

James McMurray said:

Interesting; that does appear to be the case. I'll have to check my printed rulebook tomorrow to see if the wording has changed, though a search of the FAQ turned up a similar wording in the errata for WoD quest 1.

I do not share your confidence that this was intentional, however. I also found this:

FAQ page 7:

Q: What happens when a rolling boulder or crushing wall moves across potions/chests/glyphs/rune keys/other tokens?
A: Any token not specifically mentioned, either individually or as a class, in the rolling boulder or crushing wall rules is completely ignored by the boulder or wall. This includes familiars , potions, coins, chests, rune keys, and many others.

Meaning that familiars were not mentioned (either individually or as a class) in the rolling boulder or crushing block rules (or at least someone thought they weren't mentioned when writing this answer). Let's check those:

WoD page 5:

Any figure in a space that a boulder moves onto is instantly killed, regardless of wounds, armor, or special abilities such as Undying. The only exception to this is figures that are in a pit when the boulder rolls overhead (see below).

AoD page 7:

Any figure in a space that a crushing wall moves through is pushed along in front of the wall, taking 1 wound (ignoring armor). The only exception to this is figures in a pit when the crushing wall moves overhead (see below).

That seems to indicate that things that specifically affect figures don't affect familiars by default. Absent a rule that explicitly states that familiars count as figures, or at least a precedent where something that affects figures has been clarified as including familiars, my best guess is that the word "figure" is carelessly used in certain passages to refer to any playing piece, but that familiars were never intended to count as figures for rules purposes. Yet another terminology failure on the part of the writers (see also: action, adjacent, armor, empty, front, half, turn).

I agree with Antistone. James has a point regarding the implications of the grammar in the familiars section, however, familiars and other token creatures have always been treated as non-figures by the rules at large. The Descent rulebook is known for not having the best possible wording; considering its history and the multitude of ways familiars interact with other obstacles and abilities as specified both in the rules and FAQ, I'd say it's more likely the implications James has found were the mistake, not the other way around.

I would think command applies because of the "another figure" line in JitD. Oddly enough NOWHERE in the core rules does it define EXACTLY what a figure is, because of this oddity EVERYTHING could be defined as a figure. This means doors, chests, pits, water, etc is a figure as well. What this boils down to is, because everything is a figure, familiars can be commanded.

Just because the boulder says figures are killed doesn't overrule what I said above since technically only heros or monsters can be killed by the rules definitions.

Finally I say let it be commanded anyway it got nerfed enough as it is in the errata give it some shred of a combo.

Page 4. The figures are those plastic things that denote monsters and heros. The familiars are all "markers." They likely didn't bother to define it as the English language has already done so. There may be an argument that allows familiars to benefit from Command, but "everything is a figure" ain't it.

Yeah I had time to reread that little snippet.

Still this discussion reminds me of a similar discussion with Boggs vs Gust of Wind. Once again a familiar in the forefront of weird rules. This and Boggs need some FAQ love.

Zephusdragon said:

Boggs was long ago settled by Kevin Wilson or Dan Clark on one of the old forums stating that he was not affected by Gust of Wind because he was A) a familiar and not a hero and B) he's a rat, and he's nocturnal so he can see in the dark.

And no...I am not even remotely making B up.

Big Remy said:

Yeah, these are the same people who said "no a familiar may not jump over a pit [3 MP], however, they may fall into a pit [1 MP] - taking no damage because they're familiars - and then climb out the other side [2 MP]." Sometimes Kevin et al can be a bit... flippant in their responses. Not that I'm complaining, mind you, after all this sense of humor is how we got bloodsquids. =)

I don´t see the point regarding markers...so if markers are strictly taken, a lieutenant won´t get a command in RtL either...and that was never a question in our round. But I have to admit, we never let a familiar get a command...

Maringo de Luna said:

Let us not forget that their are official metal miniatures aka figures for the Lieutenants. Thus they are figures.

Poor Boggs is just a token!

Maringo de Luna said:

I'd have to double-check my RtL rulebook, but I'm pretty sure the LTs are said to count as figures. This constitutes an exception which is not provided for familiars/companions.