Take, for example, Burning Blood which is a rank 2 Bright Wizard spell. It has no "additional modifiers" cost, not even a . There are other rank 1 and rank 2 spells of the various colleges with no costs whatsoever, or with just a single . I really don't think being able to cast "automatically", especially with rank 2 spells, is the intent. I really do feel that the intent is for spells, and most tasks, to be "easy" and not "simple". It's purely up to the GM, though, since it is generally an Unopposed check.

Refer to pg42 for the descriptions of the challenge levels.

Simple is basically -> "something so basic and routine that the outcome is rarely in doubt." i.e. success is assumed to be automatic except in extenuating circumstances.

Easy is basically -> "something that should pose little challenge to most characters, but something could go wrong". ie reasonably expect they will always succeed.

Average is basically->"a routine action where success is common enough to be expected, but failure is not surprising". ie. will succeed more than they fail.

IMO, spellcasting is something that will pose little challenge to a trained wizard, but failures do happen. The Winds of Magic are not docile and benign. It takes a modicum of control and attention to control the power and shape it into the function of the spell being cast. It isn't something most wizards can do on auto-pilot unless they are very experienced. Certainly not apprentice wizards.

dvang said:

Burning Blood is a Reaction and doesn't require a check at all.

Mordenthral said:

Is this in reference to a book section in which the reation trait is discussed? why the emphasis on Reaction?

pumpkin said:

Just a note on the trait (which hasn't been defined by FFG yet). It's not a typical spell and is not cast as an action. The spell icon in the upper left is also inside of a shield border, indicating that it is a Defence. Burning Blood is just not a good spell to use as an example.

dvang said:

I agree, but I would reference casting Cantrips in the ToM, I don't have the book infront of me so I can't reference a page number.

Wizards:

Flaming Sword of Rhuin, BW, Rank1,

Shooting star, celestial, rank 1, (works like a ranged attack, although it doesn't say it is one)

Curse, celestial, rank 1, [bB]

Omen, celestial, rank 1,

Cerulean Shield, celestial, rank 1,

Blade in the Dark, Grey, rank 1, No mods (although it says a melee attack under traits, so prob counts as a melee attack for difficulty)

Second Portent of Amul, celestial, rank 2, [bBB]

Priests

Sigmar's Strength, Sigmar, rank 2, [bB]

Sigmar's hammer, sigmar, rank 1, no mods (works like a melee attack, although it doesn't say it is)

Divine Perseverence, sigmar, rank 1, [bBB]

Penitent Zeal, sigmar, rank1, [bB]

So there are a few that don't have challenge dice. Including a few that operate and do damage just like a melee/ranged attack action, although they don't have the melee attack trait.

It might help to also list the power/favour requirements for those. It might be illuminating.

Ok, so there are spells/blessings that only have Black dice as the difficulty?

How do you miscast on those then? Only if you cast the spell/blessing in the same turn as the channelling/curry favor?

For some reason that seems incorrect.

A spell/blessing should always have a chance to miscast.

I am now leaning towards that casting a spell/blessing always has a Purple challenge die along with the difficulty modifiers of the particular a spell/blessing action.

Magic in the Old World was never without the possibility of consequence.

-ashe-

You don't miscast them. They are generally simple spells (like Magic Dart). Some are less simple, and contain multiple , so, they can still fail but can be assumed to be reliable enough that there is no possibility of a miscast (there aren't a lot of spells like that).

Keep in mind that if you channel, there's still a <P> added to the roll. So, even a reliable spell can miscast if you are not careful.

With magic though, didnt even "reliable" spells in the past editions have the chance to miscast?

From what I have gleamed, the winds of magic are skirting the essence of chaos itself.

I do see your point though. Lesser magics in the 2nd edition could be cast with just one d10 possibility wouldn't suffer the chance of Tzeentch's Curse since doubles, triples and quadruples weren't possible.

I am anxious for Jay's FAQ

-ashe-

I suppose you could do it either way, depending on how deadly you want it.

When there's finally an official ruling on this, I'll bet it will say "It's like this, but you can do it like this instead if you want it to be [more/less] dangerous.

I'm sacrificing and tolerating 'a few spells can't fail if you cast them under optimal conditions' to avoid 'high level spells are too dangerous to even consider casting'. I think that extra <P> can make things just TOO dangerous. There are cases where you will have <PPPP>, that has the possibility of 4 chaos stars. I think 3 is bad enough without adding another, but then I've killed characters already so I'm cautious of making things more difficult.

See, I'm leaning the other way because I don't think that casters should channel and cast in the same phase very often. I also think that casting spells is more dangerous and more difficult than making melee/ranged attacks, thus <PP> (average difficulty) will be common for spells that have a <P> modifier. Best bet is to train in Spellcasting and take a specialization get a [W] to add. Stances also will help quite a bit in offsetting any <P> dice.

dvang said:

They almost HAVE to if they want to be any where near half as effective at damage output as say... anyone. If they don't channel and cast in the same round, then after the first round, they are casting every-other round. That means I would take a cross-eyed halfling with a pile of rocks over a caster if I wanted something dead.

I think they are already getting their 'penalty' when they channel and cast in the same round. I mean, they have to roll twice (two chances to fail), and the cast is more difficult. That's just my opinion though.

NezziR said:

I haven't found the rule itself, but I've found a rule that references the (imaginary?) rule. In the rules for the rally step, it says that spellcasters move one towards equilibrium just like they do during their end of turn.

Chipacabra said:

Yeah, this may have been where I got it. I'm not sure now. That would mean there are no automatic shifts toward equilibrium during combat, but only during the rally phase. If we can't find it soon, I'll update the caster quick reference sheet.

They almost HAVE to if they want to be any where near half as effective at damage output as say... anyone. If they don't channel and cast in the same round, then after the first round, they are casting every-other round. That means I would take a cross-eyed halfling with a pile of rocks over a caster if I wanted something dead.

Or they could channel power in the first round, max out their power, and (depending on cost of the spells) cast a couple rounds in a row, maybe having to channel every third round. Or, on the round they channel+quickcast they select a non-<P> mod spell to use. While spells aren't always the most damaging effect in combat (although some come close), an awful lot of them provide some amazing benefits to the group (or penalties to enemies).

Also keep in mind that the majority of spells are unopposed checks and not "attacks". Target do not get to add Defense dice, nor can they use active defense cards to dodge/block/parry. That's a pretty big benefit to spells right there.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. I understand your points, and I'm a heart beat away from thinking the same, but...

I'd be interested to see how bad or well your casters perform and if they resent the added difficulty. My caster accepted his lot when I assigned the additional dice, but he was very discouraged and started wondering (aloud at times) what the benefit was to being a caster. He was very relieved (and a bit indignant) when I announced that we were going to try it without.

We plan on removing it next week and trying that. I'll let you know how it goes.

I ran some numbers just for fun. I’m sure I made a mistake somewhere (I didn’t spend a lot of time on it - lot of cut/paste), but it should be pretty close.

Let’s do a test. For this test, we will use a spell and a bow. For this test we will assume that all rolls generate 1 success and no other effects (good or bad).

Flame Blast (recharge 2) vs. Basic Ranged Shot (recharge 0)

Test 1: Flame Blast vs. Basic Ranged Shot
Both participants have 4 in their relevant statistics and are train in the relevant skills. The archer is armed with a standard Shortbow (DR:5, CR:3) and is using a basic action (Ranged Shot). The caster is armed with an attuned staff and is casting Rank: 1 Flame Blast. The targets are 2 Orcs (Def:1; Toughness 5; Soak:2; 14 Wound Threshold), armed with bows and miss every turn. All participants are in reckless stance. An extra <P> of difficulty will be added to casting for this test. The caster will not channel and cast in the same turn. The engagement takes place at medium range (and has no additional range modifiers assigned).

Round 1:
The Wizard Channels. Pool: <PP><BBB>®[W][Y]
Result: +2 power, for a total of 6 power

Archer fires. Pool: <P> <BBB>®[Y]
Result: (5+4) – (5+2) = 2 damage

Wizard’s Orc: 14 wounds left
Archer’s Orc: 12 wounds left

Note: The Wizard could potentially suffer 1 wound if he rolls 2 banes
Note: The Archer does more damage than the Wizard.
Advantage: Archer

Round 2:
The Wizard casts Flame Blast (Spellcraft(Int); 6 power). Pool: <PP><BBB>®[Y]
Result: (4+4) – (5+2) = 1 damage

Archer fires. Pool: <P> <BBB>®[Y]
Result: (5+4) – (5+2) = 2 damage

Wizard’s Orc: 13 wounds left
Archer’s Orc: 10 wounds left

Note: The Wizard has a higher difficulty to hit.
Note: The Wizard could potentially suffer 2 chaos star miscasts.
Note: The Archer does more damage than the Wizard.
Note: At 1 success per channel, and not channeling and casting in the same round, it will now be 4 rounds before the Wizard can cast Flame Blast again.
Advantage: Archer

At the end of the 6th round, when the Wizard has cast again, the score will be:
Wizard’s Orc: 12 wounds left
Archer’s Orc: 2 wounds left
Then the cycle starts again. Total of 6 rounds.

Lightning (recharge 6) vs. Basic Ranged Shot (recharge 0)

Test 2: Let’s try something different. Same as above, but substitute Flame Blast for the Celestial Wizards Lightning. The difference is, this is a Spellcraft vs Defense, so more dice for the Wizard. It also costs 7 instead of 6, so one more round of channeling for the Wizard. It also has a recharge of 6, so we’ll have to bump it up two round to 8 rounds total.

At the end of the 8th round, when the Wizard has cast again, the score will be:
Wizard’s Orc: 10 wounds left
Archer’s Orc: 0 wounds left
Then the cycle starts again. Total of 8 rounds.

Magic Dart (recharge 0) vs. Basic Ranged Shot (recharge 0)

Test 3: OK, let’s back to a basic spell – Magic Dart. Same as above. The difference is Magic Dart has no recharge, costs 3, and only has for a difficulty. But oops, Magic Dart doesn’t do enough damage to bypass the Orcs toughness and soak (damage and mitigation are equal, netting zero wounds). We will have to be satisfied with the ‘1 minimum damage’ rule.

Round 1:
The Wizard Channels. Pool: <PP><BBB>®[W][Y]
Result: +2 power, for a total of 6 power

Archer fires. Pool: <P> <BBB>®[Y]
Result: (5+4) – (5+2) = 2 damage

Wizard’s Orc: 14 wounds left
Archer’s Orc: 12 wounds left

Note: The Wizard could potentially suffer 1 wound if he rolls 2 banes
Note: The Archer does more damage than the Wizard.
Advantage: Archer

Round 2:
The Wizard casts Magic Dart (Spellcraft(Int); 3 power). Pool: <P> <BBB>®[Y]
Result: (3+4) – (5+2) = Minimum 1 damage
Note: The Wizard has 3 power left

Archer fires. Pool: <P> <BBB>®[Y]
Result: (5+4) – (5+2) = 2 damage

Wizard’s Orc: 13 wounds left
Archer’s Orc: 10 wounds left

Note: The Wizard could potentially suffer 1 chaos star miscast.
Note: The Archer does more damage than the Wizard.
Advantage: Archer

Round 3:
The Wizard casts Magic Dart (Spellcraft(Int); 3 power). Pool: <P> <BBB>®[Y]
Result: (3+4) – (5+2) = Minimum 1 damage
Note: The Wizard has 0 power left

Archer fires. Pool: <P> <BBB>®[Y]
Result: (5+4) – (5+2) = 2 damage

Wizard’s Orc: 12 wounds left
Archer’s Orc: 8 wounds left

Note: The Wizard could potentially suffer 1 chaos star miscast.
Note: The Archer does more damage than the Wizard.
Advantage: Archer

The Wizard must now channel again – repeat rounds 1-3. In 7 rounds total, the archer’s Orc will be dead, and the Wizard’s Orc will have 9 wounds left.

It looks to me like that extra <P> is killing the Wizard. Without it, he could channel (with an easier channeling test) and cast in the same turn for the same casting difficulty. He would still be behind (in all cases), and his rolls would be generally tougher (more risk, greater chance of failure) but he would be closer.

The difference is, Wizards have better results, in the above listed cases, if we have the potential to roll other beneficial results, other than a single success. Therein lies the reason to choose a Wizard. Consequently, those other positive results also come with negative results...

dvang said:

Besides Nezzir's points, it's worth noting that you can use dodge against some spells.

I’m bored, so let’s redo the Basic Magic Dart vs. Basic Ranged Shot. Same as above, but this time we will not add the extra <P> to the caster’s casting check and we will allow him to channel at the discretion of the player.

Round 1 (FIGHT!):
The Wizard Channels. Pool: <P><BBB>®[W][Y]
Result: +2 power, for a total of 6 power
Note: 1 less <P>

The Wizard casts Magic Dart (Spellcraft(Int); 3 power). Pool: <P> <BBB>®[Y]
Result: (3+4) – (5+2) = Minimum 1 damage
Note: This is the same difficulty listed above, but the <P> comes from channeling instead of from arbitrarily adding an extra <P>
Note: The Wizard has 3 power left

Archer fires. Pool: <P> <BBB>®[Y]
Result: (5+4) – (5+2) = 2 damage

Wizard’s Orc: 13 wounds left
Archer’s Orc: 12 wounds left

Note : The Wizard could potentially suffer 1 wound if he rolls 2 banes during his cast
Note: The Wizard could potentially suffer 1 chaos star miscast.
Note: The Archer does more damage than the Wizard.
Advantage: Archer

Repeat this every round for 3 more rounds, 4 rounds total. At this point, the Wizard will be low on power and must spend 2 rounds channeling to cast again. There after, he may cast twice ever three rounds.

At the end of round 4, the total is:
Wizard’s Orc: 10 wounds left
Archer’s Orc: 6 wounds left
Three rounds later, when the archer’s Orc is dead, the Wizards Orc will be at 8 wounds.

As you can see, the Wizard is still weaker than the archer. The Wizard still must contend with miscasts. The Wizard still must make 2 rolls each round, once for channeling and once for casting – giving him twice the chance of failure. All this WITHOUT punching him in the kugelsachen with an extra <P>.

Only when we discard the ‘1 success only’ caveat and allow boons, comets, and additional effects to count does the Wizard start creeping up in damage. Even then it’s only ignoring 1 soak, which in this case would change nothing since we are already at zero damage and ‘borrowing’ a wound. But this generosity also brings with it the potential for miscasts, and in this case, a 1 stress + 1 fatigue potential.

Please be kind. Don’t stand on your caster’s kugelsachen.

Ok, I see your example, but don't forget that is assuming the base minimum of 1 success and no boons. Both channeling and Flameblast get much better with more than 1 success and 1 or more boons. Much better than Ranged Shot gets with those same rolls. For example, if the wizard channels and gets 3 successes. Now he's sitting at 10 power, which is enough to cast magic dart, and then flameblast the next round without needing to channel between them.

You also forgot that the apprentice wizard career provides an additional [W] to casting Rank 1 spells.
You also forgot that the orc can block or dodge the Ranged Shot, adding an additional to the attempt.

I do agree that it *seems* in your example like the extra <P> for the difficulty is really hampering the wizard. I would also, personally, think that a wizard would channel+quickcast with magic dart (or any other non-<P> spell). Again, though, I'm not sure that assuming the minimum roll is a useful comparison. Assume 1 success and 2 boons, and both Magic Dart and Flameblast become much better. Assume a "best" roll of 3 successes, 3 boons, and a comet, and Flameblast completely outclasses Ranged Shot. That's not a 'realistic' or good roll to compare.

Perhaps I'll sit down and actually run some test rolls to see how the dice actually seem to work.

Also keep in mind that Wizards aren't supposed to supplant ranged experts, nor melee experts. Wizards (even Bright Wizards) have much more versatility with their spells, including healing and group support spells. So, a pure damage comparison isn't necessarily fair, because Wizards shouldn't do as much damage as a ranged/melee ally.

Plus, it just *seems* wrong that casting spells is a Simple task. It totally does not fit under the rulebook description for being a Simple task. Why is casting a spell easier than the majority of the other tasks in the game?

Look at Pyrokinesis:
It has no card difficulty modifier. It's special says what the difficulty of the spell is:
0d is trivial - a fire the size of a candle
1d is easy - a fire the size of a campfire
2d is average - a fire the size of a hearth fire
3d is hard - a fire the size of a bonfire or forge fire
4d is daunting - a fire larger than a bonfire

So, Flameblast has the same base difficulty (0d) as controlling a fire the size of a candle? Or, even if we include the card's additional difficulty modifier, the same as controlling a campfire? We're talking generating, aiming, and sending out a stream of fire larger than a campfire out to a range of Medium.

So, I see what you're saying as far as game mechanics, but it doesn't feel right to me. Maybe I'll compromise and instead of a <P> always add a or [bB] instead.

You also forgot that the apprentice wizard career provides an additional [W] to casting Rank 1 spells.
Doh! My caster had that card under his action card stack and I didn’t see it.

You also forgot that the orc can block or dodge the Ranged Shot, adding an additional to the attempt.
Right again, he could also do the same with the lightning.

Both channeling and Flameblast get much better with more than 1 success and 1 or more boons.
Yeah, I haven’t even looked at how much it improves. Let’s take a look:
Let’s assume no challenges or banes, 3 successes (the max that will do either any good) and the rest boons. No comets or chaos stars. No extra <P> for the caster. No dodge or block – optimal situation for each.

The Wizard casts Flame Blast (Spellcraft(Int); 6 power). Pool: <BBB>®[Y]
Caster does *SSSBBB* (*SB* on reckless die)
Caster does 12 damage and 1 critical

Note: Cast can only cast this spell every other round. Recharge = 2.

Archer fires. Pool: <BBB>®[Y]
Archer does *SSSBBB* (*SB* on reckless die)
Archer does 11 and can perform a free manoeuvre, or, regain a stress or fatigue, or, may trigger a weapon critical.

Note: Caster still has two potential chaos stars (assuming he channeled). Caster will also need to channel again soon.
Note: Archer has 1 less <P>, but one more and another if there’s a block or dodge. So a max difference of trading <P> for [bB].
Comet: Would allow the archer to use it as a weapon crit, freeing his boons for a manoeuvre or some stress/fatigue relief.
Comet: Would allow the caster to do another damage and another critical.

Slight advantage to the caster now, including comets (but since it's recharge 2, the archer still trumps):
Best roll caster: 12 wounds, 2 crits (every other round)
Best roll archer: 11 wounds, 1 crit, reclaim 1 stress/fatigue (or manoeuvre) (each round)

Note: This isn't some special trick archer. Just a guy with BS trained and using a basic action. So more like a wall guard or a hunter vs an Apprentice Wizard. Pretty close in power comparison I think.

P.S . I just want to say kugelsachen again.

Edit: Doh! I forgot the [W] again, but it would be wasted here.

NezziR said:

There is a rule where if you have "excess" power, unless you concentrate (use a manuver) you lose 1 power on your turn.

Can't find any rule that if you have less, you gain one though.

As priest can gain faith dependant on their specific talent card, if they got one back every round anyway, it would make their faith talent pretty redundant.

NezziR said:

Off Topic:

Nez, I think you may want to use kugelsacken, as sachen is "property" if I remember correctly. Although, "ball property" does do the image justice.

-Thorvid

BTW, not a native speaker of German or Reikspiel.

Thorvid said:

Holy crap! It's really a word?!?