The oddest thing is that I cannot find a base difficulty for a spellcasting attempt. It seems like the answer should be hiding on one of two pages. The three of us could not find it, however.

Anyone know?

We've been playing it that the base difficulty is zero the only bad dice added to the pool are those listed on the spell card.

I decided to go with this because I could not find any spell card without a difficulty modifier.

Not a great answer, but hope it suffices until someone who really knows gets back to you.

moofrank1 said:

Look on the upper left corner of the card. Also, check out my caster cheat sheet in my sig.

I believe that the default difficulty for any unopposed action is a single <P> (like melee attacks, for example). Additionally, certain spells will have an additional modifier of a or a <P>. Remember, 0 <P> is a Simple task, and I doubt most spells are simple.

Personally, I plan on operating spells like this: A spell of the same rank is an Easy challenge <P>. A spell of a lower rank is Simple and thus no <P>. For spells above the caster's rank, each rank above adds another <P>. Thus, an apprentice (Rank 1 caster) trying to cast a Rank 2 spell will default to <PP> to cast it, representing the greater challenge to cast a spell more difficult than they are trained for.

So a caster would roll one <P> for difficulty and one <P> for the spell itself?

dvang said:

Yes, this makes the most sense in regards to the way things are stated in the rules; unfortunately there is not anywhere that explicitly states what the default difficulty for a spell is, like is done for melee and missile attacks.

However, during play (only three demos and the first act of a new campaign), it has made spells very difficult to successfully cast. It makes it very difficult indeed just to gain the power/favor needed to even cast the spell.

I hope I get some clarification soon. I don't like implementing house rules when I've played a game so little since it's more than just a little likely that the game was playtested more than the 4 times I've played it [tongue planted firmly in cheek].

We were playing the demo adventure last night....

The grey wizard worked out that the best way to deal with spellcasting was to channel and cast a dart every round, leaving his stance on neutral. It was easy enough to get a single success that way. (I believe that ends up with only a single challenge die introduced by the simultaneous channel/cast).

It was going much more easily for him than the rest of the party who were going up against two challenge dice.

I don't know that I agree with the default <P>. I haven't found anything saying that casters have that default.

The difficulty could mount up quickly. Remember, if you channel and cast in the same round (which will happen a lot), that's <P> right there. All but the simplest spells have an added casting difficulty in the upper-left corner. A lot of spells also have an additional <P> if you are engaged while casting. Couple that with the fact that {S} can be real bad for casters and you start to see why an extra <P> could be a serious problem.

I'll look into this, but till I find something, I won't be kicking my casters in the cod with an extra <P>.

I am operating under the premise that the base difficulty of any spell is listed on the action card. And that is why there is no "base-line" difficulty listed in the rules. The only except to this are cantrips, which I believe are referred to as simple tricks.

I should state that although we do own a copy, we have not yet had an oppertunity to actually play the game.

Admittedly, it doesn't explicitly state in the rules what the default difficulty is for spellcasting. It does state that for Melee and Ranged attacks the default is <P>. You then add any difficulty modifier on the card to this. So, what is printed on the card alone is not the entire difficulty of the action, merely an additional modifier.

For other actions, if it is an opposed test then the difficulty is based on the chart. If it isn't an opposed test, then the difficulty is up to the GM. There are a few things to keep in mind:

A Simple task is one that typically should ALWAYS succeed. Generally, a task that is Simple will normally not even need a roll except in rare circumstances.

An Easy task is one that should succeed the majority of the time, but could have occasional failures.

For opposed checks, an action is only Simple if the "attacking" stat is twice or more than the defending stat, which will be pretty rare. Otherwise, the task is Easy <P> if the attacking stat is greater than, and Average <PP> if the stats are equal.

So, looking at the descriptions for the task difficulty levels, and the methodology for opposed check difficulty, it seems to me that spellcasting and manipulating the Winds of Magic is typically an Easy task. It's not a "given" for an apprentice to be able to automatically cast each and every spell they know, so Simple just doesn't seem right. Should it really be easier for an apprentice wizard to cast a spell than for a trained warrior to swing a sword?

Yes, it should be difficult for a wizard (especially an apprentice) to channel and cast in the same round, and especially if engaged in melee. That is why wizards can store up/hold power. In the 3 demos that I ran I used a default <P> for spellcasting, and I think the wizards still only failed to cast once. Magic dart went off a number of times, and both attempts at Pool of Darkness succeeded even being after a channel power action. Keep in mind that wizards are trained in Sepllcraft, so get a [Y], in addition to their Order talent which gives them an additional [W] to casting spells of Rank 1.

That's why I'm planning on making the difficulty Easy for spells of the same rank, Simple for spells of lower rank, and Average/above for spells of a rank higher than the caster. Spellcasting shouldn't be inherently easier than melee, it's still a matter of wrestling and controlling the Winds of Magic and forcing them to create the desired effect. I might eventually reduce the difficulty if a spellcaster uses one spell more often than others, so becomes more adept at using that one spell, though.

This is all my opinion, of course, since the rulebook doesn't say. Basically, if it isn't a Melee or Ranged attack or an opposed check, the rules say that difficulty is up to the GM. I would personally shy away from making any test a Simple test, and only have those as a rarity.

Beyond spellcasting there are a number of other actions that are not an opposed check that need clarification. For example the basic "Defensive Stance" action (not sure of the exact name). I used a default <P> for this as I assumed that any unopposed check defaulted to that the way melee and ranged attacks do.

NeZZiR,

I looked at your caster reference card and I had a question. Where did you find the rule that you lose or gain 1 power per turn until you reach equilibrium? All I could find is where it says that it slowly recharges or decreases but I could not find any specific number or anything saying when you lose that number. This has been bothering me all day! haha. Any help would be appreciated.

Sorenthion said:

ToM 33, 34

moofrank1 said:

After looking at this closer, I'm even less sure about the proposed <P> default difficulty for casting.

The majority of damage spells already have <P> as part of their listed difficulty. An exception, for example, would be 'Magic Dart', which is a basic cantrip type spell, slightly weaker, and meant to be a reliable cast. It has a default difficulty. A couple of others have [bB] or [bBB] instead. Few exceptions aside, most missile and melee type attack spells have, at a minimum, <P> difficulty, just like their non-magical counterparts. Even Channel has <P> listed as its difficulty on the card. This, in my opinion is the 'listed' difficulty and brings the spell difficulty in line with other 'attack' options. Note: I have also not found a card that has 'no listed difficulty'. If there is one, I'd bet its a really simple spell.

Adding an extra <P> to casters could make some spells difficult to cast indeed. Rank 1 Flameblast, for example, a staple Bright Wizard spell, would incur <PPP> to cast if you use a default <P> and channel in the same round. I think this is excessive. A potential of {CCCCCC} (challenge) and 3 chances for {S} (Star, Chaos), is a lot for a rank 1 spell when a ranged strike of the same power (or greater) suffers no such penalty.

Assuming the difficulty to cast a spell is listed on the card would give you <PP> to cast Rank 1 Flameblast after channeling. Still more difficult than say a specialty bow shot, but that's the price you pay for channeling and casting in the same round.

Now, I do agree with adding a default <P> to tests that do not specify a difficulty, for example the test to see if an insanity becomes permanent. That is not listed in the book, but I believe it is implied.

I'm going to try another session (one with much casting) and see what the impact is.

It would be nice if Jay would chime in on the major points of the game churning around on the Rules Question forums.

Someone mentioned the contact at the bottom of the web page to email Rules Questions, but has anyone gotten an answer to these and more yet?

-ashe-

The Asgardian said:

Yeah, I sent this question and one about default skills for divine casters out, using that link, last night. No word back yet. If I hear back from them, I'll post here.

I sent a bunch out the day they mentioned that that is the appropriate place for rules questions, and not the rules questions forum.

No answer yet.

There's probably a lot of questions queued up. Usually is on release of a new RPG. If I had to guess, I'd say they were compiling them for a FAQ and/or Errata.

Adding an extra <P> to casters could make some spells difficult to cast indeed. Rank 1 Flameblast, for example, a staple Bright Wizard spell, would incur <PPP> to cast if you use a default <P> and channel in the same round.

Then they should power up before they cast, so they aren't Channeling and casting in the same round. Channeling and casting in the same round *should* be difficult. It's taking 2 actions in the same round.

dvang said:

i see your point, but that would still leave them with <PP>, where as an archer could do the same (or greater, depending on the bow) damage with a bow with only a <P> difficulty. I think that's gimping casters. I checked, most direct damage spells (firing an arrow-like missile) are Spellcraft-vs-Defense. So, it's essentially the same thing, except a cast has to bother with channeling and a greater chance of failure. Casters are supposed to be powerful. They run the risk of going insane. They could blow themselves up if they mismanage their power. They take a lot of risks. There has to be a payoff there somewhere...

With only the difficulty listed on the card, if they don't channel and cast a missile like spell, it's close to the same difficulty, range, and damage of a bow shot. They just have to worry about turning into a gibbering pile of goo, but that's their problem. The next and subsequent turns, they will likely be forced to channel to stay even close to the archers damage output, but at a much increased risk! And that's without adding the extra <P>!

It gets worse in melee as a lot of spells state 'Add <P> if engaged with an enemy'. So let's say our imaginary protagonist, Accolyte Cannon McFodder, is in combat. That goblin, with only one hitpoint left decides to go for the gold and charge the Accolyte, catching him off guard and low on power. He channels (because it's after round 1 and he's forced to), and casts his most wimpy spell (but one that has the best chance of succeeding) Magic Dart. His difficulty, without adding extra challenge dice will be:

• For the card

and that's just for a basic cantrip every caster learns on his first day of Wizard Kindergarten! That's 2 chances for a miscast.

I think this situation can best be

Take that same Wizard, not engage, on the first round of combat (so no need to channel), fresh and in full possession of all his faculties. I don't think it's unreasonable that he would only have to his cast - it's a cantrip. Remember has no chaos star. There's no reason he should be sucked into the warp for a practice spell.

Keep in mind that the extra difficulty die doesn't just increase the chance of failure. It also increases the chance of miscast. Be careful you don't wreck them in their first fights!

NezziR said:

I still can't find where it says you gain/lose 1 power if you are under/above equilibrium. All I'm seeing is where it just says you slowly recharge or lose power. Is there anywhere in the book where it clearly states that it's 1 power per turn?

Sorenthion said:

I don't remember seeing a rule that states you get power for free. You lose it if it's above your Willpower and you don't spend manoeuvres. I think the 'slow recharge' reference was just for flavor. You have to channel if you want power (or favour.)

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It does make more sense to me that way.

Sorenthion said:

Pfft... I can't find it either now. Perhaps I imagined it. If I come across it again, I'll post it here. Otherwise assume that I am out of my mind.

I was pretty sure I saw that as well, I will look around for it, either way thats how I am going to play it in my game =)

I also agree with the diff of spells being base simple, otherwise pretty much any rank 1 spell is 2 <P> without quick casting, 3<P> with it. An archer could shoot every round with no channeling for only 1<P>.

If the spells were more devastating than swords/bows then I'd understand (With great power comes great responsibility and all) but they really dont seem to be.