A couple of questions came up as we played today.

1. Does the church of Sigmar effect stack? Meaning that if I have two churches you'll have to pay two ressources? I think not, but I'm not sure.

2. The shrine says: "After your turn begins, choose one target unit in this zone. That unit gains power for each of your developments in this zone until the end of the turn." If you have two developments the unit gains two extra power. But what if you increase the number of developments in the relevant zone during your turn? Will the unit gain more power or is it a one time effect counting only the development present as you assign the abilty?

Any help is appreciated.

mads

1. Yes. Abilities stack.

2. No. The Shrine of Taal only grants the bonus power at the beginning of the turn. You play developments during the Capital Phase. Your next turn would benefit from the added Development though. Also note, if you have City Gates and Shrine of Taal in the same Zone, you choose which "beginning of turn" forced effect to resolve first. Resolve the City Gates auto-Development, then Shrine of Taal to maximize your bonus power.

i dont think that is correct re shrine of taal. The card doesnt say anything about only using the # of developments you have at the beginning of the turn. It simply says choose a target unit, and that unit gains power equal to the # of developments in this zone. I believe that if you add developments, you add more power.

mateooo said:

Shrine of Taal

Forced: After your turn begins, choose one target unit in this zone. That unit gains power for each of your developments in this zone until the end of the turn.

I believe my interpretation of Shrine of Taal to be correct. The Shrine's ability is a Forced Effect. Meaning that it triggers once and is not CONSTANT. The power gain occurs immediately at the beginning of the turn due to the Forced Effect. Since the effect only occurs at the beginning of the turn, playing more developments will not increase the power gain.

I can see how you interpret it. If Shrine of Taal's Forced Effect is the unit gaining the ability to gain X Power for X developments, it would make sense. But the Forced Effect is gaining power, not the ability.

FiendishDevil is correct. Shrine to Taal's ability is triggered (just once) at the beggining of the turn. Obviously, you cannot take into account developments that will be played later on that turn.

eloooooooi said:

Because if that was the case the card would be written to reflect the power of the unit at the time it attacks and not at the time that the ability is triggered.

i dont think the card clearly states any of those opinions, but the card does not put any sort of restriction on only getting the power at the beginning of the turn.

It simply states choose a unit, that units gets x power for deployments in this area.

You could be right or wrong regarding the designers intention, but the card does not clearly state either. What is the official Nate on this, or is everyone (including myself) just giving opinions?

mateooo said:

In fact, it says more than that. An ability is applied at the moment it's triggered. You choose a unit (when the ability is triggered) then that unit gets X power (when the ability is triggered) where X is the number of developments in the area (when the ability is triggered).

Look at it this way: can I choose a unit that I will play next turn and give it the bonus? Of course not, because that unit it's not in play when the ability is resolved. Similarly, I cannot take into account developments that are not in play at the moment the ability is resolved but that will be played later.

eloooooooi said:

of course you cant target a unit that does not exist, but there was a previous official Nate ruling that allowed you to play the card "Grudge Thrower" that said spend a resource sacrifice a unit and give all attacking or defending units 1 power till the end of the turn before the battle phase ie before there were any attacking or defending units, and it worked even though when it was played, there were NO ATTACKING OR DEFENDING UNITS. This sets the precedence that a card can be played with an effect that lasts "until the end of the turn" but changes based on future events ie additional deployments or additional attacking/defending units.

so based on the wording of the card, it is not clearly one way or the other. If this is your guys' opinion, thats fine, Ill wait for the official Nate ruling. You may actually be right, but the literal wording of the card suggests a different interpretation to me.

I see where the problem is. When an effect is played all decisions, choices, targets, costs etc. are dealt with immediately before the card resolves. In this case Shrine to Taal counts all relevant developments and applies the boost until the end of the turn. That is a fixed number at the time of initiation. Any additional developments will not boost the StT because the card has already initiated and resolved.

Grudge Thrower creates an effect that selects all attacking or defending units to gain this boost, but the boost itself is a set number. Because it does not set a target but resolves on all cards in the phase that end up qualifying, if a card let you attack an additional zone, or one which let your opponent attack during your turn, and you had selected attackers when the card was initiated, every attacker, would gain the boost.

If there is doubt, send it to Nate.

Grudge Thrower: "...to have each attacking or defending unit gain [POW] until the end of the turn."

WAAAAGH: "Each attacking unit gains [POW][POW] until the end of the turn."

So these two should work the same, correct? If Grudge Thrower sets up an effect that lasts the entire turn, WAAAAAGH does as well, so even units that come into play later will get the bonus? And this applies to all "such and such gets this until the end of the turn" cards, such as Culling the Weak as well?

And what about Radiant Gaze: "All units in that zone lose [POW] until the end of the turn". Does that hit only units that are present when it is played, or does it affect the zone?

The Grudge Thrower ruling seems counterintuitive to me, and mateoo certainly has a point about the wording for the Shrine. And if for some reason it doesn't work the same for all such cards, how do we tell the difference?

Also, is it just me or will Grudge Thrower increase your opponent's unit power as well?

Buhallin said:

HAHA I noticed the same thing! I was going to ask, but it seemed like a stupid question. The wording on Grudge Thrower affects ALL attacking or defending units. Doesn't say which units, so it can be inferred that ALL units get the power bonus.

I think it is attacking OR defending.

When you attack you choose to buff attacking units, and when you defend you choose to buff defending units. So your enemy will not gain the bonus.

Otherwise it would be "attacking AND definding units", no? Hmmm... not too sure anymore :/

EDIT: Hmm, now that I reread the wording on the card I think it effects both, yours and your enemys units.

well, when you play grudgethrower, you choose "attacking OR defending units" (its not attacking AND defending units) and they get a bonus until the end of the turn, so presumably you would play it and choose the attacking or defending units based on which would help you the most ie "buff the attackers when you are attacking, and defenders when you are defending"

Also, if you say " When an effect is played all decisions, choices, targets, costs etc. are dealt with immediately before the card resolves. In this case Shrine to Taal counts all relevant developments and applies the boost until the end of the turn. That is a fixed number at the time of initiation. Any additional developments will not boost the StT because the card has already initiated and resolved.", that is against the interpretation of Grudge Thrower, because if there are no relevant attackers in play when Grudge Thrower is played, then it would not affect future attackers, unless it is setting up a persistent environment of "all attackers or defenders gain power" or "gain power equal to number of developments in this zone" that would adjust depending on the number of deployments at a given time, or the number of attackers that are later declared.

Regardless, I do not see a clear distinction between the wording of Grudgethrower or Shrine (and Waagh, and radiant gaze), and yet some people feel they behave differently. I may be right or wrong, but there is no clear ruling based on the card and rulebook, in my opinion. And really, if it is your opinion that there is a clear ruling despite the arguements going both ways, well.... perhaps most gamers (including myself) are simply not intelligent or enlightened enough to fully decipher and comprehend the intricate workings of this rulebook and this game. Why are there so many card interactions that require uncertain and difficult interpretations to figure out....?

dormouse said:

1) Only the target is a decision here. "Power equal to" is part of the resolution and wouldn't occur until the effect resolves. Not important for forced effects since they don't produce a window but for actions (blood for the blood god+demoralize) it matters. But that is irrelevant because

2) The problem is does the resolution add the ability "Gain power equal to..." or does the resolution add the ability "X power".

The reason to think the second is the "After your turn begins" but that just tells you when the forced effect occurs it doesn't limit the type of resolution that can occur. The timing of the resolution and the effect's trigger are completely different. According to the immediate adding power idea if the card had said gains pow while attacking it would do nothing. The target wouldn't be attacking while the card resolves and since the amount of power gained is determined immedietely it would add zero and be gone. The strict reading of the card is that adds to the target "gains power for each of your developments in this zone". Add that exact wording to the target until the end of the turn and the targets power will shift as the number of developments shifts. To limit the card to the developments you had at the start of your turn you would have to specify it as part of the resolution ie "gains power for each of your developments in this zone at the start of your turn" or telling you to count the number of developments seperate from what the target gains.

I tend to doubt the designers meant for it to change (although it does present some nice surprises when an opponent destroys your developments) but as written it certainly appears too.

Hi there,

Whaag and Shrine don't behave different, they aren't an exception to the rules.

When you play a tactic or trigger an ability on a card in play, the effect of the tactic or ability is put on the stack inmediatly, this effect is based on what is in play at that moment it's played, after the effect is put on the stack, the source of the effect can be destroyed or removed, as well as the actual conditions can change in any way, but the effect is already on the stack waiting to resolve and won't change at all, once it is resolved, it applies and it doesn't exist anymore as an effect, for example you won't be able to cancell it with Bright Wizard Apprentice after the effect leaves the stack, in the same way it won't change to adapt further changes on the conditions, as well as it won't stop or cancel if the source of the effect is destroyed or removed. In the same way, you don't return to your deck a card you drew during your quest phase because one of the units providing power in that section is killed after your quest phase.

I hope this helps and sorry for my english.

Regardless of the wording on the Shrine, you can infer that the designers meant for the power increase to be fixed at the time of its use (beginning of turn). Otherwise, they could have worded it simply as "Action: ... " . Then you could use it any time, even after you played a development in your Capital phase or even just before you were about to Declare Attackers (In the action window after Declare zone of attack).

Mind you, inference is not 100% proof but it's good enough for me.

The problem is that you could just as easily infer that Grudge Thrower only affected units which were actually attacking or defending at the time the ability was activated - it would be my default interpretation, honestly... But it's also wrong, and the similarity of the effects blows a hole the size of a Bloodthirster through inference

Trying to guess at the designers' intention has been loudly touted as the wrong strategy, so we should focus on the rulebook and card. I dont know what the answer is, but I do know that the answer is NOT clear and both arguments have merit, using the rulebook and the card. please post the answer when someone gets one from Nate.

Grudge thrower and Shrine to Taal are different issues. Grudge thrower is an argument on targeting Shrine of Taal is about how to apply resolutions. Grudge thrower reads "have each attacking or defending unit". I would have read it as when activated the thrower targets each unit and then applies it's effect. The answer given is that the grudge thrower doesn't target but rather creates a constant effect lasting until the end of the turn. The grudge thrower never says target so I can go with it but the "each" is misleading. If grudge thrower had just said "attacking or defending units gain" it would have been crystal clear as a constant effect. So a poorly worded card but I can live with it and can't think of any cases off hand where each being non-targeting destroys the card.

That said targetting is not the issue with Shrine of Taal targeting is 100% clear. What is at issue is how efffects resolve ie whether the resolution is a state or whether the resolution is a calculated value. In standard ccg terminology it creates a state. The standard terminology for creating a calculated value would have been "target unit gains X where X is the number of developments in the zone". Shrine of taal specifies what is being gained as "power equal to the number of developments in that zone" ie an ability or state not a value. That said as shown by each not indicating targeting in the grudge thrower example the developers aren't bound to follow standard conventions and can rule anyway they want. Although breaking conventions generally results in more confusion not less.

As far as stacks and effects resolving remember that the stack determines the order effects are resolved in not the order resolved effects are applied. Blood for the blood god and demoralise makes this difference clear. Player A plays blood for the blood god player B responds with demoralise on the same unit. Demoralise resolves first and the unit loses 2 power (say 3 to 1). Blood for the blood god then resolves and the unit then takes 1 damage. The effect put on the stack "take damage equal to this units power" not "take 3 damage".

I'm not sure where the argument is. GT and StT are not the same problem/question. GT as pointed out repeatedly now, was about what was targeted (answer, nothing it is a lasting effect covering each unit that falls into the game defined term selected at time of initiation). StT is about what value is being applied and when is that value calculated.

I would agree that if the value added by StT was meant to be variable it would have made more sense to have it expressed as X.

I also agree that the wording and the rules do leave some room for debate and the question should be sent to Nate.

Interesting discussion. I think I'll go with the arguments for StT giving a bonus equal to developments as it's resolved. That was also my gut feeling, but just wanted to get a second opinion.

I think Nate answered himself to the quesion about Shrine to Taal, in his "Heavy Firepower" article:

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp

The important part is :

"That turn arrived, and the Pistoliers were still on the table. The City Gates added another development to my Kingdom, and the Shrine to Taal gave the Pistoliers an incredible 7 extra power. I counted a treasure horde of resources, and then moved the Pistoliers over to my Quest zone and drew a mittful of cards. Finally, the amped up Pistoliers joined the forces in my Battlefield, and provided the lift that was needed to break through and burn one of Eric’s zones."

So StT power boost is calculated and applied once, at the time the effect is resolved, and not each time the targeted character's power has to be calculated.