Urgh, I knew I'd forgotten something. >.< Sorry.

They're in their offices now though, and I got a reply in under 5 minutes, so it's no hassle for people to ask. They wouldn't have put the link there otherwise.

Alright, I'm probably gonna come off as defensive here, but I'm protecting my baby!

Composite Bow: I mean, it was just a thought. If you see your Moritat as a calm bow-sniper (definately a unique take on them) then go for it, for sure. Medieval marksman used bows over crossbows anyway. Maybe see if you can wheedle your GM for a semi- or even full-auto 2 onto your bow. They were damned fast, as well as accurate. Probably more accurate with every shot in a "burst", not less like with a gun. And it's not like we follow reality too closely here, do we? I assume from the posts gone-by that no-one has a problem with non-primative pen 3 arrows anymore? Or, to structure that sentence more correctly, are now aware of the use of this home-rule? As to the Catechist being better, I humbly (well, more like arrogantly) digress, as listed below.

Catechist Bow: 1d10+4 > 1d10+2 - when we take away the primative quality the Penetration values are at least roughly equal, so this part of the debate falls down to damage. An additional 2 isn't much to write home about, especialy when compared against either Accurate or 'burst' firing bows, above.

Holy vs Daemons/Warp entities - A fairly good point, but they're hardly standard fare, even for the Inquisition (even Malleus fights other things). For when they are, however, a GM might eventualy (some point through mission) decide to have the ammo/weapon blessing option open for purchase/acquisition. For emergencies, maybe buy a quiver of 'adamantine arrows' for a couple hundred Thrones (smaller than Catechist bolts, not paying for blessing yet) and 'enchant' them with the Holyness for the standard +250 Gelt. More use-per-'round' than what you'd get with bullets, because arrows - especially adamantine arrows - are retrievable.

Tearing vs Psykers - Well, as he's a Moritat, we've got Tearing against everything. (not exactly, but you get the idea)

Body-Lodging - I always thought of this as a fluff thing, even though they've got mechanics for it. Anyone stupid enough to try pulling it out mid-combat should be fodder anyway, and putting in rules for it kinda makes a GM to feel he must have someone do it every now and then, or the player might feel jipped. Most enemies don't live longer than one fight, and those that do tend to be the 'oops they got away' kind no matter what you've prepared (until the GM decides he has no use for the NPC anymore).

My baby!: Putting blades on a bullet kinda sounds like what one of my therios entailed, and thus I shall defend it stringently. I was going less with mounting a blade on top of a bullet, and more with a different method of justifying high RoF.

In Helsing they seem to just go with 'rule-of-cool' in allowing the use of a drawstring of some description fire that fast, but I tried (with an idea perhaps just as bad, I'll admit) a different approach. I didn't mean scaling up the bullet charge to give the Stake equivilant speed, as that would deform it anyway.

But if you style the 'stake' as a cross between a crossbow bolt and a guided missile (visually anyway) and use a charge to give crossbow-equivilant speed and power... Thus negating need for the drawstring, and allowing higher RoF than a medieval-style crossbow.

Heh, now argue aerodynamics with me (well, you probably can poke more holes in this, but I'll try and deal with that later).

As for the actual player's statement (I forget who you are now, I apologize) of something like "arrows are allowed, stakes/bladed bullets not"; well, that's fair enough. I think I got caught up in my idea and ignored most of your stated desire, as I've been getting the idea you want more of a marksman than another lead-bullet (or steel-stake) spewing firehose or slicing combat madman. Which is fair enough, and actually sounds pretty cool.

But... if you did want to shoot rapidly, then you could go with my compressed-air approach. Encase the bolt/stake/arrow in a rubber self-disposing 'sabot' type casing that provides a block in the tube so the arrow gets shot out rather than almost falling out, then falls away when out of the barrel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot Has information on sabots, which has a kinda my-style link with flechette.

EDIT; Archer Moritat? Marksman Moritat? Perhaps he hails from the divergent sept, the Architat/Markitat.... Heh.

Sorry.

killfr3nzy said:

Erm, I would not allow a semi- or full-auto composite bow in my game. Sure a skilled archer can pop off quite a few arrows in a short amount of time, but even an untrained guy with a semi-auto pistol could empty his clip well before the archer has even fired his second to thrid arrow. It's just not possible to compare it, so composite bow's should be single shot, while being quick to reload (which they are already since they are single shot weapons that only takes a half-action to reload)

Also, I wouldn't allow "manstopper" arrows, mainly because I know a thing or two of how armour piercing bullets work. I might allow a person to buy Lathe blade arrows or arrows with mono edges, but not cheap and easy manstopper arrows.

So when I did the comparison with the Cathechist and the Composit bow I did not keep any of your houserules in mind.

killfr3nzy said:

I wouldn't be that nice to my players as to let them have an option to buy "holy arrows" BEFORE they encounter any daemons or warp entities. If I just tossed in a random "salesman" who says that he's got holy ammunition to sell, my players are just instantly going to assume that there will be daemons later on.

I prefer to spring the daemonic as a surprise on them instead. Meaning that when they buy gear and equipment they have to think of every possible situation and try to guard themselves against it.

from france

arg if their is a priest or fi someone really played a faithful than let him with spending fate point bless the bow and not the arrow. than you will slain the deamon.

Well, for the moritat sniper idea, I would totally go for the composite bow and mono arrows.

That said, I just read up on the Catachist, and it is... a pretty cool weapon. It would require a different character idea, but I could definitely see doing something with it. Personally though, I would probably see about doing some non-holy stakes for day-to-day takedowns. You don't want to shoot random cult fanatics with holy "St. Magdalene's Coffin Nails" after all (if for no other reason that it'd be crazy expensive ).

There seems to be some confusion about the catachist actually doing primitive damage. The primary listing in the book doesn't mention it, but the appendix does. I assume the first listing is right in these situations?

Slaunyeh said:

Hehe, well the character I have that use a Cathechist is a Noble Born Cleric. He can afford the dough to nail downtrodden heretics to the wall with holy "St. Magadelen's Coffin Nails", much to the other character's envy.

Though he usually prefer to use either his extremely expensive custom piece Mauler bolt pistol or his elegant Khayer-Addin Duelling Las or his exclusive sanctified Lathe-blade sword in most battles. The Cathechist is a beloved heirloom of his late Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor Grandfather and will only be used for "special occasions".

"Special occasions" being either when he's actually engaged in a fight with hostile psykers or daemons... Or when he feels a pressing need to show off in front of the proletarians, like this:

-"Yes, I do in fact spend more thrones on ammunition than you will ever see during your enire life. 'tis the posh thing to do."

Slaunyeh said:

I've always assumed the same thing (I don't even use the appendix in IH to be fair). The weapon might use Basic Weapon Training (Primitive), but from the description and the unusually high Pen value it seems that it fire's the stakes fast enough to count as a non-primitive weapon.

Also, if you've managed to scrape together 50 thrones for each shot, you deserve to benefit from it's full Pen value. I mean, it's more expensive than bolter rounds for Throne's sake!

I wonder if I could convince my GM to let me have a good quality Catachist with a rate of S/3/- instead of the reliable trait. And a fire selctor. And a red-dot laser sight. And a... I totally have to do something with this idea now.

Slaunyeh said:

The red-dot is no good for semi-auto, but Rt has an attachment that would give the same +10 for semi-auto.

Varnias Tybalt said:

In the part of my post where I said "we don't follow reality too closely" I was refering to the fact that in DH, a guy can, in under 5 seconds (one combat turn) run 12 meters while firing a submachine gun/machine pistol in each hand on full-auto with no loss in accuracy, and in fact with increased accuracy. So 'rule-of-cool'ing a fullauto 2 (two shots, dude) doesn't seem nearly as unrealistic or unfair, considering he's got at best the equivilant of a hunting rifle. Hell, after a while of checking out how his character went, I might throw in some minor gear or training that let him use that bow with Auto-Stabilzed, as long as I felt it wouldn't thus make it too easy. After all, if he's "burst" firing he's not sniping..

Varnias Tybalt said:

There's no manstopper arrows here. Composite bow has Pen 1, so when combined with mono-arrows (mono = +2 Pen) they've got Pen 3. The bows pen rating comes from the force it gives to the arrows, so I don't see that mono would "over-write" it and give merely Pen 2.

You say you know how AP bullets work. That's great, but do you know how modern body-armour works? Less sarcasm in that question than you may think, because I know very little indeed. I do know, however, that it supposedly helps a lot less against getting stabbed than it does against getting shot. Probably because close combat has gone out of fashion to some degree. Now, while this isn't as true in 40K, there's still no mention that I can recall anywhere in the fluff, depicting direct combat with people wielding bows. Close combat's still there, stabbing from afar isn't. So unless you want to complicate the rules further by saying that the Pen is less against certain armour....

Varnias Tybalt said:

How can they gaurd against the daemonic if there's no option to get their weapons blessed beforehand? Your character had a blessed weapon, did he have to undertake a mission to find someone 'holy' enough to bless his weapon AFTER fighting off a daemonic incursion? They just have to load up on plasma- and melta- weapons because they can't find anyone to bless for them just in case they find daemons somewhere, somewhen in the future?

I wasn't refering to a salesman, although going by the medieval practice of selling passage into Heaven it could definately be played that way. I was refering to the fact that a lot of times when Daemons are depicted in any kind of force, there are usualy some believers/insturments/trappings of faith laying around for contrast. Ergo, there may be a frail abbot tottering around (or considering this is 40K, some mortaly-wounded, hardbitten Preacher) in the midst of the mess, able to provide a quid-pro-quo service?

As to the expence of Catechist bolts, I figured they were mostly retrievable, except perhaps when used against warp-spawn and psykers. We already know they can be ripped out, and I seriously doubt adamantine would be wrecked that easily. You just usually buy more than one so you can fire more in the same fight, without having to go and fetch your shot back. Even mono-arrows would likely have at worst a 50/50 chance of being alright, considering the fluff on mono.

killfr3nzy said:

They aren't "wrecked" per se, here's the description from IH:

These stakes, as well as being diamantine-tipped and fired with sufficient force to pierce body armour, are micro-etched with deadly prayers of anathema against thewitch and the Daemon and features razor barbs that snap out from the stake to embed in the target's flesh.

It seems that the stakes work sort of like Batman's springloaded grappling hooks in a manner that they are aerodynamically shaped when fired, but once they go through a wall or land near something to cling on to, they open up into a device of several hooked protursions in order to hopefully latch onto something. Only in the case with Cathechist stakes, the protrusions are razor sharp barbs that snap out in order to make the stake more difficult to dislodge from a wound.

I'd say that you can't retrieve these stakes once their barbs have been snapped out, because if reseting the barbs would be of such an easy matter to just "push them back in" then it wouldn't be justifiable for it to inflict more wounds due to being hard to dislodge. Once the barbs are out, they are out and acn't be reset, and thus the stake can't be loaded back into the Cathechist once more, but you have to use a "fresh" one that hasn't "opened up" yet.

Isn't a Moritat sniper stretching the concept of the Moritat quite a bit? I mean, isn't the cult supposed to get in and do the wetwork at close? Read the description of the cult. Blood and all that. Not some clean shot from 100 metres away. Yes it is stereotypical but then the bonuses are given exactly for fitting the stereotype (just like for Sisters and many other alternative ranks). And here you are considering how to exploit arrows the most, how to create bows with semi or full auto fire and all that. If you wanted to play a sniper, make a standard assassin? They can use thrown weapons and bows too. You will do fine without the Tearing ability. But this smacks of powergaming at its best. To pick a powerful ability and use it out of context to build some character. Not a Moritat. Or rather that one Moritat who would rather use a bow over his blade. The overly special PG Moritat.

Chester said:

"exploit" arrows? Powergaming? Moritat are specifically allowed to use arrows. And, probably not in melee Legolas style 'cuz that's just stupid.

Dude, I'm terrible sorry that you disapprove of my character idea, but I don't think you will have an awful lot of influence on my game. Sorry if I don't live up to your standards, but fact of the matter is that all we know about the Moritat is summed up in a handful paragraphs that, frankly, don't really say anything.

So in short: stuff it.

Chester said:

The Moritat are not above using ranged weapons. Otherwise they wouldn't have started out with hand crossbows and throwing knives. So your point is a little moot...

Slaunyeh said:

Stuff it yourself? Yes I think we can agree it's good you're not playing in my group.

You've read the arrows part and now you are even trying to introduce new full auto weapons with edgy/pointy ammo just so you can maximize that. More power to you. As a GM I would say the rules were made with whatever is in the book in mind. I'd even say Moritat were made to use blades foremost (despite the arrow part). That mention of arrows doesn't make them their weapon of choice (which is exactly what you're trying to do). Moritat Reapers are the cool guys with the blades. Everything about them suggests that. Your bow sniper may be a Moritat build but it isn't a Moritat.

But whatever fits your playstyle, I guess.

Just give 'em Shuriken weaponry. They are bladed. Problem solved.

ItsUncertainWho said:

****, that'd be fun...

Chester said:

I'm not the one telling you that your ideas are wrong. And I never tried to introduce anything full-auto anywhere. Moritat are made to use bladed weapons as well as archery. That's all we really know about them as per the rules. I like to make quirky characters that doesn't fit neatly into their mold - yes, I might make a Moritat knife-throwing sniper. If you can't imagine variations in modus operandi among Moritat, within the confines of their code, then you are terrible narrow minded. Really glad I'm not playing in a group with someone that thick. I'll guarantee that my Moritat archer will be infinitely more Moritat than anything you could cook up.

The core idea was an archer-focused assassin. That's real powergaming right there. Real powergamers would pick a bow over an autogun every day of the week. Archery utilises a single-shot weapon that requires a half-action to reload every turn. To take advantage of the accurate trait, you are only firing every second turn. To be even remotely comparable to Joe Average with an autogun, yes I think the idea needs the Moritat trait to be viable.

Who the heck made you chief of chargen police anyway?

I may have missed it, but I have yet to see Lathe swords spoken about in this really... long... thread. I have a rank 5 Moritat with a Lathe sword. Power weapon conundrum solved. You get to be as stealthy as you are supposed to be and your weapon kicks ass. We had the same discussion amongst our group about The Bloody Edge and whether or not it would allow power weapons, so I went with a Lathe sword so there would be no more ambiguity. Nuff said.

I know there's no ambiguity about whether a Lathe sword will work, but the fact is that a Power Sword is both better (in that the better damage and penetration more than makes up for the lower accuracy) and cheaper than a Lathe sword. The Moritat have a very heavy disadvantage in terms of not being able to use full-auto weapons, and having significantly less range with a composite bow than a regular assassin has with a hunting rifle (not to mention the fact that you can lie down when using a rifle), and they should be the best melee assassins to compensate for that. Without the ability to apply the Bloody Edge trait to Power Swords, they are not the best melee assassins.

Katsue said:

That might be true, but then, who said they had to be "the best melee assassins"? They are good using just normal bladed weapons, and the developers themselves have said that power weapons don't apply under the special trait, so that's how it works. That's "RAW". There's nothing stopping you from ignoring that, but what people were after was the official meaning of the trait.

Katsue said:

While I agree with you on that one, the only definite answer I have seen is the reply from a moderator in an earlier reply stating that no, power weapons do not get the tearing bonus from The y Edge talent. This is about as an official answer as you will get on this topic, barring another addendum coming out stating otherwise. So, unfortunately, there is some ambiguity still, because not everyone agrees.

Like someone else stated earlier also, the power field on a power blade does the actual cutting, thats why the damage and penetration are so high, like a power fist. So the damage is considered Energy, not rending. I can see the logic in this, but my Moritat will suffer for it. Also keep in mind, Moritat assassins consider blades the purest form of weapons, hence their ability to wreak yy(pun intended) havoc with them. They may be one of the best melee opponents in the Imperium, but they do have to adhere to a particular dogma, that being the purity of the blade. Its what colors them and makes them so interesting. If you just want to build a melee monster, find another career to do it with, one that allows any type of melee weapon, power included.

Well this mod ruling does mess with my plans to make an ascension level Moriat assassin using the sword from Purge the Unclean; but since the demons are not "living targets" it wouldn't have worked anyways.

Fearless, step aside, wall of steel, counter attack, combat master, blade master, lighting attack, dodge +20. Bring it On Bloodletters.

Still a Moriat with a holy lathe blade would be a decent substitute for Luminous Reproach, if I can find away to extend the bloody edge effect to daemons (elite advance?)

MILLANDSON said:

I certainly wasn't suggesting that Ross Watson's answer was incorrect, and I don't imagine that people are going to consider my word more official than the developer's. I happen to think that balance wise, applying his ruling* is a mistake. That's all.

As for your question, it's as I said. Assassins are a combat-focused career. A group of assassins who are all about butchering people with swords should be better at butchering people with swords than other Assassins, provided this doesn't cause an overall imbalance. Since Moritat characters have a significant disadvantage in ranged combat, which is almost unavoidable in my experience, I don't think there's any overall imbalance in allowing them to use power swords, and to apply Tearing damage to powerswords. If they have to make the Willpower test to use powerswords, then they're actually worse in melee than other Assassins.

* Which is, incidentally, not RAW until it makes its way into the errata.

monkyman said:

Well, at Ascension level, you could have a non-Moritat assassin with Fearless, Step Aside, Wall of Steel, Counter attack, Combat Master, Blademaster, Lightning Attack and Dodge+20 anyway. Though not, it must be said, Hatred (Heretics).

As for Holy Lathe Blades, I'm not sure they exist. The description of Holy Blades says that the holiness comes partly from manufacturing components and Lathe Blades can only be made in the Lathes and presumably, can only be reforged in the Lathes. I very much doubt there's an STC Template for a Holy Lathe Sword.

Katsue said:

Micro-etched incantations and purity seals seem to be enough to make most weapons holy. I don't see why it couldn't be done to Lathe blades during the forging process. Just get a Cleric to assist the Techpriests and let them go to town with it.