Hello everybody,

I've a question that we fought for yesterday with my GM and we can't found a way out of it !

I'm playing a Moritat Assassin and i reached the 4th degree since yesterday. I had 2 mono swords and, as the 4th Moritat Assassin degree allows, i picked Melee Power Weapons in order to use a Power Sword.

A teammate found one (with a very nice roll) and i was happy ! But my GM said that as a Moritat Assassin, i can't use Power Swords altough i succeed a -20 WP roll each time i want to use it ...

I knew the Moritat rule but i can't consider a Power Sword as a non cutting weapon or as modern weapon. As i can't think about an Imperial Assassin who can't use Power Weapons to defeat strong npc ...

To me, a Moritat Assassin is under the -20 WP roll rule with Modern Ranged Weapons (Bolters, Laser Rifles, etc.) only, not cutting ones ..

So, what do you think about it people ?

- Is a Moritat Assassin can use a Power Sword without the -20 WP roll ?

- What about the "Bloody Thread" rule for a Power Sword (2 damage dices, pick the better) ?

Thank you very much for your answer and sorry for my bad english, i'm french

They can use a power sword as a melee weapon (without the minus modifier), but you won't get the bonuses they normally get for cutting weapons, as it's not the blade that does the damage, but the power field. You are better off with the mono-weapons in that regard.

Coucouyou said:

Is a power sword a bladed weapon?

Considering that this is WH40K and not Star Wars, power swords do have blades, so the answer to that question would be yes, and a Moritat Reaper can use power swords without having to do WP rolls for it.

Except that, as the rules state, it's not the blade doing the damage, it's the power field. Hence why mono upgrades don't work, cos the blade never actually touches the person. That's why the Bloody Thread rule wouldn't apply for power weapons. They would only count for them if you deactivated the power field, but then you just have a very shiny normal sword.

but you won't get the bonuses they normally get for cutting weapons, as it's not the blade that does the damage, but the power field.

As a matter of fact, with Power Swords, it's the sword edge that deals the damage while the powerfield "softens" the target. This is noted in the description of the Powerfist, where the energy field is amped up enough that it alone provides the shredding power.

So, IMO: Yes, you can wield a power sword and yes, you get the Moritat special rule with it.
I mean, seriously: Moritat assassins are boxed in enough as they are, do you really want to deny them the crowning level of their specialization? Because if Chain- and Powerweapons aren't acceptable for them, they get overtaken by the regular melee characters pretty quickly.

Cifer said:

To be honest I wouldn't use either power weapons or chain weapons as a moritat assassin. Mainly because of the fact that if I play an assassin I actually play it... well like an assassin!

Using swords that either have to be revved up like a chainsaw or having a crackling powerfield around it would cause an awful lot of noise and wouldn't be stealthy in the slightest. I mean even if they don't see me coming they will most likely hear me if I run around with weapons like that doing my dirty work.

That's probably why the only Moritat Assassin character that I actually play prefers knives, poison and stealth over the standard "ninja weapons". His victims won't stand a chance if he's actually silent enough to sneak up on them and stab them in their unprotected eye with a blade covered in Ars Imperialis Mortua or some other horrible toxin.

Although his usual MO is to stab them with an injector in the neck filled with a fast acting tranquilizer so he can drag them off to a more private enviroment where he can kill them in a more... "artistic" manner.

To be honest I wouldn't use either power weapons or chain weapons as a moritat assassin. Mainly because of the fact that if I play an assassin I actually play it... well like an assassin!

Using swords that either have to be revved up like a chainsaw or having a crackling powerfield around it would cause an awful lot of noise and wouldn't be stealthy in the slightest. I mean even if they don't see me coming they will most likely hear me if I run around with weapons like that doing my dirty work.

Meh. Talents like Combat Master, Step Aside, Wall of Steel and The Reaping indicate to me that Moritat cultists (after all, they're still a death cult, not a murder-for-hire agency) are not quite opposed to stand-up fights if there's no other way. And in that case, they'd probably like the extra edge (pun not intended) of a powersword. Further, there's nothing stopping you from activating the weapon only when you've already closed in on your targets.

That's probably why the only Moritat Assassin character that I actually play prefers knives, poison and stealth over the standard "ninja weapons". His victims won't stand a chance if he's actually silent enough to sneak up on them and stab them in their unprotected eye with a blade covered in Ars Imperialis Mortua or some other horrible toxin.

Considering that AIM is a little harder to get than a Powersword... well, yeah.

Although his usual MO is to stab them with an injector in the neck filled with a fast acting tranquilizer so he can drag them off to a more private enviroment where he can kill them in a more... "artistic" manner.

That sounds... familiar. Are copious amounts of duct tape, trash bags and power tools involved?

I was also under the impression that the rule actually stated that chainweapons and the like couldn't be used with that rule. I don't have my book on me at the moment, so could someone check for me?

"As a result, they must pass a Hard WP test to use any weapon lacking an "edge" in combat (thrown blades, knives and arrows are fine) unless they obviously have no chance of harming their enemy otherwise. However, such is their deadly artistry at bloodletting, any edged weapon wielded by them counts as having the Tearing quality when used against living targets."

That's it. The Reaping has a similar requirement.

(Though by RAW you probably can't stack Tearing dice, I personally allow them to.)

Cifer said:

Hehe, you'd think that wouldn't you?

But no, while this guy might use Dexter Morgan's methods of investigation in order to make sure that he kidnap the right victims, he's not really much for being clean and neat.

Where The Rolling Stone's sang: "paint it black" this guy want's to paint everything in red instead.

Anyway, I've played several ninja-esque and sniper assassins before but it just felt so cliché. I just figured that a serial killer "assassin" would add a new disturbing twist to the game.

Thank you for your answers everybody

I'll transmit the URL of this thread to my GM !

But no, while this guy might use Dexter Morgan's methods of investigation in order to make sure that he kidnap the right victims, he's not really much for being clean and neat.

Does he at least collect the all-important slide?

Anyway, I've played several ninja-esque and sniper assassins before but it just felt so cliché. I just figured that a serial killer "assassin" would add a new disturbing twist to the game.

Well, most death cults could only be described as assemblies of serial killers.

Which brings me to another interesting question: How do that many death cults stay away from Slaanesh and Khorne? I assume the Officio and assorted Inquisitors watch them relatively carefully with regard to corruption, but the entire structure seems to be created to fall to Chaos...

Coucouyou said:

Of course, that doesn't mean he'll follow the majority. At the end of the day, it's up to your GM, and pressuring him to see your point of view is kinda rude. The GM's word, of course, is final. You shouldn't really go behind his back to get him to do what you want.

Oh don't worry about him He's not the kind of GM who give up in front of player's whine. In fact, at the end of the day, he always has the final word.

But this time, i wanted an outside opinion. Thank you anyway

MILLANDSON said:

The GM's word is only final so long as the players' allow it to be - the group can always work to Magna Carta his ass.

Cifer said:

They have an entire Ordo dedicated to watch over this, and it's called the Ordo Sicarius. Most deathcults will have one sort of connection with the Officio Assassinorum (even if some deathcults might be purposefully kept in the dark about it), and by extension the Ordo Sicarius will be able to investigate matters if things starts to get a little too... "Khorny" (pun, very much intended ) for comfort.

Cifer said:

I was going to at least finish reading the thread to chip in (IMO, power blades/swords are fine for the Moritat to use), but I both completely agree with Cifer's interpretation of the quoted rules, and would love to have him as GM for his interpretation of Tearing.

Cifer said:

Speaking of that quote, if "thrown blades, knives and arrows" are fine, would you also rule that you get the tearing quality for these weapons? I'm particular thinking about the arrows part. I have this idea for an archer, and so far my best bet for making it viable is the Moritat.

Slaunyeh said:

I think the rules are pretty straight forward. If throwing knives and arrows count as "edged" in regards to not having to roll for WP to use them, then the "any edged weapon wielded by them counts as having the Tearing quality when used against living targets" would apply to arrows too.

Although I'd advise both players and GM's about the "against living targets" part. There are many examples of basically "undead" creatures in Dark Heresy, along with the many mechanical constructs that players might face. Then there might be creatures of such strange physiology that it' be a stretch to actually grant the Tearing quality to (daemons being prime examples for this as it's hard to say that they are actually "living").

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with limiting the Moritat's special ability when it comes to certain enemies. Assassins are primarily intended to kill human or humanoid targets anyway, not supernatural monsters...

Varnias Tybalt said:

In reference to DH's Assassins, which would at best come under the label of 'Death Cultists', I would agree that this is true. For the most part at least; I can see some being set up for just the opposite.

And of course, there are the Templar Assassin... We all know that they could very well go toe~to~toe with most anything, I believe.

Ahem I've just kinda re~read my post and yours, Varnias, and I apologise. You were, of course, refering to Assassins within the DH framework, as that makes the most sense. Just feeling argumentative, I suppose.

killfr3nzy said:

Yes, well the Temple Assassins are of a different breed of course. Although in my opinion I'd say that the only tempel assassin that would actually be sent to fight monstrous daemons would be a Culexus assassin and nothing less. But that would only be "in a pinch", and not standard procedure, because the Culexus assassins are still primarily intended for use against human and possibly space marine psykers.

@Slaunyeh

Speaking of that quote, if "thrown blades, knives and arrows" are fine, would you also rule that you get the tearing quality for these weapons? I'm particular thinking about the arrows part. I have this idea for an archer, and so far my best bet for making it viable is the Moritat.

Take a look at the Composite Bow. Accurate Basic weapon with added Tearing? Can we get a HELL YEAH!, please?

Though you should have a talk with your gm about the costs of mono arrows...

@Varnias

Although I'd advise both players and GM's about the "against living targets" part. There are many examples of basically "undead" creatures in Dark Heresy, along with the many mechanical constructs that players might face. Then there might be creatures of such strange physiology that it' be a stretch to actually grant the Tearing quality to (daemons being prime examples for this as it's hard to say that they are actually "living").

When "living targets" is explained for other powers and abilities, it usually refers to enemies lacking the Daemonic and Machine trait, though the really weird stuff should probably be out as well.

Cifer said:

You can keep this a bit more manageable by charging the mono upgrade against a quiver of arrows as opposed to adding it to each individual arrow. Sure, it makes them cheaper than having a stack of throwing knives, but you are not likely to be recovering arrows with combat heads after use due to damage, deformation, stuck in dead things... This also has the logical bonus of making SHARP arrows pricy, but still cheaper than bolt shells.

HappyDaze said:

Maybe in your games, but in mine the GM's word is law. Continuing the discussion and ganging up on the GM to pressure them is a good way to not have a GM anymore.

MILLANDSON said:

I like to see roleplaying as a cooperative effort. The GM is the slave of the group, she does most of the work and gets just as much reward as the other participants. Generally the social contract dictates that the GM gets final say in conflicts. This is because a good group lets the GM makes story decisions. It is a form of delegated power that brings a lot of responsibility with it. If you have a lot of conflicts about how power is handled in your group, you should try to make your social contracts more visible, try to get some sort of common understanding as to what your groups social contracts are, and finally consider re-evaluating some of them.

In many RP groups I've noticed a feeling of conflict, of "GM vs Players". Such an environment is often not a good place to tell fantastic stirring epic stories, because both sides will be more interested in winning, rather than telling a good story. If the players and the GM are all interested in the story first, there will not be much need for arguing over detailed rules. Rather you could ask yourself: "Will this make for a good story?". Me personally I think a Moritat assassin with a powersword makes for an awesome character. Imagine the stealthy nasty attacks where the assassin stabs her victim through the lung from behind, whispers "The Emperor hates you" in his ear and then, blade still buried deep in the unfortunate heretic, turns on the powerfield in a blaze of blood and sparks. It's awesome, so it's right.