Luddite said:

I'll have to look more closely at the concept text of the Guardsman before I can give you a more concrete answer. But to start, my understanding is that an SM is just a super pumped up version of a Guardsman. Stay tuned while I read closer so I can give a good response.

And to Dezmond:

I wasn't suggesting that an SM is really just a Guardsman on actual steroids. The phrase I used was only to express that a SM seems to be a guardsman with pumped up stats, abilities and equipment - mechanically speaking. So yes ... a "super hero."

Luddite said:

Agreed.

Rather than dive into an investigation-heavy mission just before a three-week break for christmas, I gave my group a foreshadowing one-shot sending pre-generated Deathwatch PCs (elite and well-equipped even by Astartes standards).

The roleplaying was amongst the players, rather than with any significant NPC interaction, save for a few minutes at the start, when they were being briefed, but they roleplayed nonetheless. And, though the characters were tough, skilled and deadly beyond anything easily achievable for their normal Acolyte characters... they were still challenged (and without much difficulty on my part - it wasn't difficult to estimate what four Space Marines were capable of overcoming without difficulty, and what would leave them bloodied but roaring with triumph at the end), and the game system didn't suddenly explode in a howling maelstrom of shattered mechanics because Space Marines were used as player characters.

I wouldn't use them long-term in my ongoing game - they don't fit the context within which my Dark Heresy game exists, and their presence would be, IMO, jarring when used long-term in direct support of a group of Acolytes... but the game system can support them perfectly well.

Locque said:

All eyes be upon him, forumites, for this is how a gentleman conducts himself.

Perhaps a gentleman would not have been so uncouth to have caused you offence in the first place?

Perhaps, but I heard a disturbing rumour going around that no-one's perfect. Plus I wasn't terribly ofended, i did try and indicate my answer was tongue in cheek. It was a tad dismissive, but such things happen. Ispecially on these newfangled interwebs.

I think the main problem here is a slight confusion between character potential and character concept.

Sure, a character fallowing the Guardsmen career can be a merc, psychotic criminal, a gang heavy, or an Imperial Guardsmen, but he can't be all of them. Wait, okay, he can be a psychotic ex-Imperial Guardsmen merc hired out as a gang heavy, but that would preclude him from being a heroic Imperial Guardsmen commander and, as such, limit the character. Once it is decided that he is a psychotic ex-Imperial Guardsmen merc hired out as a gang heavy the parameters for acceptable in-character actions and actions that are just strait up out of character will be set. Courageously sacrificing himself to save his men whom he cares about or those strangers in that village over there would be far fetched and trying to find a non-violent solution to a problem that just begs for a glorious blood bath with few personal repercussions would be right out -he is, after all, a psychopath with few scrouples as defined in his concept.

All characters independent of career will be limited by their concept.

I disagree to an extent. Riddick in the first Pitch Black started out a psychotic murderer who grew a heart somewhere, without it coming across as forced.

Tight careers with a more limited scope of what character concepts can be found within don't limit roleplay, they limit character concept which is really only applicable during character creation. They are more like prepackaged character concepts where as the more open careers are do it your self kits for a character concept. In the end, all characters will have one by the time the game starts and, as such, each will be limited in what they can or can not convincingly do.

To summarize:

Career == Limits Concept

Concept == Limits Roleplay Possibility.

Career =/= Limits Roleplay Possibility.

I'm just saying there are situations where a guardsman could convincling run or fight, without breaking character. A Space marine wouldn't run, so the choice is taken from him. He fights. That's an oversimplified, binary example just so you can see what I'm getting at. Think of it as my point in a nutshell.

+++++He fights+++++

Sure. But people playing Marines will have come to fight, not to run away. Just make the fights interesting. Having to play someone who needs to be careful is limiting in its own way.

With a system in place whereby the worst thing that can happen is you have to wait to respawn, or similar, you can play characters who act like action heros - all swagger and endless confidence.

+++That's an oversimplified, binary example just so you can see what I'm getting at. Think of it as my point in a nutshell.+++

Repeated as necessary.

My apologies if this has been said already (7 pages is a doozy to speed read...) but why not come up with a 'learning curve' for the marines. Any D&D players will be familiar with the level adjustments incorporated into the more powerful races in that RPG. Marines could begin as initiates (not scouts, mind you) but with only their gene-seed and/or other implanted glands to their name (depending upon chapter) and, as a test, must gain experience fighting stuff. (I could have made that sound better at the penalty of a couple more paragraphs and too much time). Just make the marine gain something like 50-%75% of what the rest of the pary gains xp-wise and see how it goes. Also, give him some +5's or +10's where it makes sense for a prospective marine. As it has been said before, testplay and see how it works.

Ragnar said:

If a new player's a scout, it'd be interesting to see how they evolve as their implants are installed. I mean, fluff-wise, they'd be heading home and seeing the apothecaries a lot.

this could either be overlooked, or taken to a really cool extreme (depending on the GM and/or PC commitment). I'd suggest keeping it simple and imposing something similar to a WP check on certain occasions as in the "oh no, I'm turning into a Wulfen' what happens in the Space Wolves series but not much more than that lest the campaign be slowed down a TON.

Well, I'd want to be playing a full blooded Space Marine, being a Space Marine doing Space Marine stuff.

Otherwise, call me when you get through the dull bits.

Ask yourself - am I playing a Space Marine, capital S, capital Marine. If not, why are you wasting everyones time?

ThePatriot said:

So far no reply to this and I'm curious as to why they haven't tried using TC: AA. I'm curious as to see their comments regarding TC:AA in comparison to the official Marine stats already published.

Luddite said:

Which is why he was so limited in power that he was the only one of the Fellowship able to stand against and eventually defeat the Balrog in the Mines of Moria, or drive off the Nazgul on the Plains of Pelennor (during Faramir's flight from Osgilliath), or survive the assaults of Saruman as a Grey Wizard and eventually defeat him as a White Wizard, or 'travel out of time and thought' during his ascendancy to the power of the White Wizard, or shield the Shire from the gaze of Sauron, or command the respect of immortal Elrond, or entreat the Ents, or identify the Ring of Power...etc...

Gandalf was godlike in power compared to every other member of the Fellowship...yet he played his role and the group worked.

Gandalf was a plot device. He could do what was needed. In LOTR all mighty characters are ploit devices, which are only mighty because they can only be defeated by other mighty characters. But they are not mighty in the sense that they can defeat a lot of not so mighty characters alone.

Well that's true. Except that Samwise defeated the ancient demon Shelob...Pippin helped Eowyn kill the Nazgul...and Frodo, unlike any other member of the Fellowship was able to resist the corrupting power of the Ring for so long...something even the all-powerful Gandalf was unable to do...

All battle deeds of the hobbits were pure luck.

LOTR would have failed miserably if played out as a RPG advanture.

The relative 'fun' of the above situation is an entirely gamist approach. (Its not fair, he can kill lots more than me! Its not fair, my marine is hopeless at investigating).

Roleplaying any character in any situation can be fun if you enjoy roleplaying . Roleplaying a marine trying to cope in a non-combat environement sounds like fun to me...

Anything can propentially be anything. Thats not a statement. But in most cases, a SM in the group will lower the overall fun of everybody in the group.

Please tell me what a SM is doing when the rest of the group goes undercover investigating something? A group splitting istelf is a problem. But it is even more of a problem if the SM is not doing anything (well except for training). That is boring for the SM player. Some people might enjoy RPing out how the SM is training, but most people wont.

Edit: The quoting system in this forum sux. Can anybody direct me to a tutorial?

quoting etc is a right royal pain!!!

Again please do not be so definative - it may lower the fun it may not - I have played both with and and without a SM both are fun - have you?

Undercover is probably difficult but as I suggested before that depends if you are actually doing undercover work - some groups do - some don't......Not everyone is undercover in a hive - they might be on a feral or similar world and the Sm strengths will be manifest there - whether dealing with any threats etc. Some chapters do have "adult" Scouts remember who are inflitration experts......

I also suggested a number of ways that the SM can be of benefit in an investigation..........and I still see most AM as alien as any marine - especially as they progress...........then again a Death Culist Assassin as described should be pretty fixated on killing............

splitting parties is something that happens in many games - again sometimes it works sometimes not - If it happens, I tend to cut back and forth quite often to try and keep momentum and aovid peoples attention straying.

People seem to be massively fixated on the combat side of things - there is plenty of other things to do and I still contend that a Marine can do many of them. ot a greater or lesser degree..........they are intelligent - it s not like they are Orgyns. The Chapter backgrounds make certain chapters more suited to assisting the Inquisition than others.

IF a SM is invloved I agree there should be a role and/or a reason that he is there but thats up to the GM to either incororate their unique requirements (like any other character) or simply not use them. It is a problem when the player is a powergamer who just wants to be better than everybody else - I guess many of us have encountered them?

On the system problems - I have never and and probably never will found a system that is exactly right ( I really don't like DH class system) but it seems ok for the most part...............

Serbitar said:

ALL characters in EVERY story ever written is a plot device...

Serbitar said:

I'm speechless...i...i...i don't even know how to engage with such a nonsensical statement...

Serbitar said:

NO. It won't. but if you think it does, then don't put an SM into your game. Simple.

Serbitar said:

Going undercover too?

What is the Tech Priest doing while everyone else goes undercover?

What is the branded psyker doing?

Serbitar said:

Which might happen but only if you lack the imagination to see the marine as a character beyond the tedious cardboard cut-out version of a marines...

Marines can be roleplayed.

If you think they can't don't use them, but you're missing out on a 40k icon and also a rich vein of roleplaying fun...

How can a marine go undercover, they can not disguise (and never would)? Tech priests can blend in (though wiht some difficulties, but none compared to SMs). There are a lot fo tech priests everywhere. And psykers do not have "psyker" written on their heads (at least not the ones working for the inquisition).

Maybe you and I have a different view on marines.

Some statements I think are true for marines:

- Marines do not lie

- Marines do not disguise

- Marines do not crave for social life, they are content having no free time

- Marines do not compromise, not even a bit, with hereteks, mutants, scum and whatever

- Marines adhere to an extremely strict morale code

- Marines are instantly recognized as such (how could they not be, they are 2.3m tall)

All of these statement make Marines totally unusable for most of the setting promoted by DH. You can not use them in undercover, and they totally dominate combat. So you either have combat, and a bored group, or undercover action, and a bored SM player, or you play something else, which is definately not DH.

And yes, of course can a Marine be role played, everything can be role played. A tree can also be role played, the question is: Is it fun?

actually some Psykers do have prominent brands - most Inq ones don't - but some are very obviously do

Marines

Do not lie - where does it say that actually - I can't recal it being stated - could be wrong? I don't see why they can't - they probably wont most of thetime but they can as and when they need to..............or have something to conceal............or are told to............ war often involves deception - Marines decieve their enemies.................

Do not disguise - most don't - some do and if it meant the mission could be carried out they would - now some Chapters would have more problems than others - but they are less likely to be the ones the Inquisition uses.

Do not crave a social life - Actually agreed (well except for Space Wolves and similar Chapters) - at elast not a human Social life - they are bretherin with their own social structure. But then same could be said of the Adeptus Mechiancus in general, Death Cult Assassins.............

Do not Compromise - well except when they do - the enemy of my enemy is.........well not my friend but they can be tollerated or at least left till later. Go back through the fluff and note all the times that SM work with Xenos such as Tau, Eldar, dubious Inquisitors etc..............

Stirct Moral Code - sort of, except it varies massively from Chapter to Chapter and often has very little to do with morals............

Instantly recognised - pretty much - but if required to do so could one be disguised as a Ogryn or a mutant - if the debt held by the Inqusition demands that a Brother undertake this - will / would they refuse?

This can also be used to the acolytes advantage - if a Marine is on his own - why is he there ? what is he doing - whilst Chaos wants to corrupt humans - they really want to corrupt marines - which is more useful to them - some hive dreg or one of the emperors finest. we know Marines can go renegade and seek a new life - not often (or at least thats waht the Inquisition says) but it happens - there is a scenario / campaign right there - especially if the invetigation is following the trail of other marines gone rogue - why did they do it - where have they gone?

lets remeber the restrictions but also see the possibilities??

Have fun!

not played a tree - is it setient and mobile - if so could very well be intersting in some games - if not then I agree its a bit restrictive

actually some Psykers do have prominent brands - most Inq ones don't - but some are very obviously do

Marines

Do not lie - where does it say that actually - I can't recal it being stated - could be wrong? I don't see why they can't - they probably wont most of thetime but they can as and when they need to..............or have something to conceal............or are told to............ war often involves deception - Marines decieve their enemies.................

It never says they don't wear pink tutus or love disco either... but it would seem to be uncharacteristic, especially since marines value honour so highly.

Do not disguise - most don't - some do and if it meant the mission could be carried out they would - now some Chapters would have more problems than others - but they are less likely to be the ones the Inquisition uses.

How can they adopt a disguise? Even the ones without fangs or whatever are herculean powerhouses, dozens of feet tall. And once again, they dislike deceit, and aren't exactly going to be capable of mimicking people they spend so little time around, are they?

Do not Compromise - well except when they do - the enemy of my enemy is.........well not my friend but they can be tollerated or at least left till later. Go back through the fluff and note all the times that SM work with Xenos such as Tau, Eldar, dubious Inquisitors etc..............

Agreed, bbut I always assume it's implicit that they will kill their enemies immediately after. I also believe that they wouldn't ally with heretics that they were engaging in combat, even to save their own lives.

Stirct Moral Code - sort of, except it varies massively from Chapter to Chapter and often has very little to do with morals............

It's a strict code, and most of the codes are 90% similar. Certain chapters allow things others don't and some practice things others would find dishonourable, but they are largely the same.

Instantly recognised - pretty much - but if required to do so could one be disguised as a Ogryn or a mutant - if the debt held by the Inqusition demands that a Brother undertake this - will / would they refuse?

A Space Marine would not be anything like an ogry, correct me if I'm wrong, but Ogryns are very obviously larger. I mean polymorphone might give them the primitive features etc, I suppose. Either way, those are both lousy disguises in 95% of situations.

lets remeber the restrictions but also see the possibilities??

Have fun!

not played a tree - is it setient and mobile - if so could very well be intersting in some games - if not then I agree its a bit restrictive

I think even a sentient, mobile tree would be somewhat restrictive to play.

Serbitar said:

An 8' tall half metal monstrosity with 8 arms, glowing and blinking, and beeping like mad, and constantly muttering binary chatter...not really much 'blending in' going on there. Although i rather favour the 1e:RT 'scientist' approach rather than the current 'cyborg from hell' version of TPs...

Serbitar said:

I'd say that's certain.

Serbitar said:

Why not? They are, are they not, masters of combat and conflict? Deception and lying are pretty much 'page 1' of any tactical manual worth reading.

Serbitar said:

Why not? Ambushing? Attacking by surprise? Impersonating the enemy to approach by stealth? Scouts in camoflage? Jamming or distorting enemy scanner readings?

All sound like pretty basic military tactics to me...disguise is no different. Take whatever advantage you can. Never fight fair, fight to win. Sounds like a marine to me.

Serbitar said:

Really? So they are all psychologically damaged? 'With me my brothers!' that's not evidence of a social life? Sure it might be monastic...it might not be what a civilian might recognise, but they still crave and have social lives. And indeed, one of the most fun parts of playing a marine would be roleplaying his reactions to 'normal' society which to him seems wierd, alien and chaotic...

Serbitar said:

Um. Of course not.

Oh, except the Dark Angels.

And Relictors.

And Red Hunters.

Or any chapter that allies with the Eldar for a fight.

OR the Ultramarines that govern Ultramar (governance requires compromise).

But other than that...nope...not a bit.

Serbitar said:

Really? Such as what? What are the details of this morale code that the Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Relictors, Black Templars, and Blood Angels all adhere to?

Serbitar said:

Why?

Humanity is spread across a million worlds. They are endomorhpically so diverse that they encompass body sizes and shapes as diverse as ratlings and ogryns. Not to mention the endless variety of 'ethnic' appearance, skin colour, shape, etc.

Add in the mass of cybernetics and genenhancment treatments available, and why would a hulk be noteworthy where a tech priest wouldn't be?

Serbitar said:

Thats your opinion which is fine. I disagree. They can be roleplayed. They can work for the Inquisition (especially marines of the Red Hunters chapter). They would be fun.

Big shiny ones that kick like a mule. Yes, but leg-wrestling is a whole other issue. Human, but only for a certain value of human (inhuman freely substitutable in prior sentence). For brief periods of time. Excessively. No, one must have a mind in order to have a psychosis. [do not deign to respond to leet-speak] Yes. Only with use of optional/or house rules for either volley fire or precision called shot effects.

Luddite said:

My view of the Space Marines is, as somebody already posted in this thread, very well sumarized by this document:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1320038_Using_Space_Marines.pdf

Dezmond said:

You're making assumptions for everyone else again. Even Space Marines need to be careful when faced with a 9-tonne Carnifex.

With a system in place whereby the worst thing that can happen is you have to wait to respawn, or similar, you can play characters who act like action heros - all swagger and endless confidence.

You mean all talk and no trousers...

... if the worst that can happen is a minor setback, success is cheapened. In my experience, defying the odds and succeeding in spite of great risk is far more satisfying.

Look at the Superhero Movie genre, or any of a number of action movies: the climax of the story is invariably a threat of sufficient magnitude that the hero struggles, but when he triumphs at the end, it's all the more exciting. The same applies to RPGs - the more challenging the situation, the more satisfying, exciting and rewarding success becomes... removing the risk and the challenge removes the satisfaction, and players will (in my experience) swiftly get bored of playing invulnerable supermen who cannot be harmed or challenged in any way.

The far more entensively studied video game industry disagrees. Get over it.

Hell, look at FFGs boardgames, and 40k and warhammer and the total lack of long term consequences.

The far more entensively studied video game industry disagrees. Get over it.

Hell, look at FFGs board games and 40k and warhammer and the total lack of long term conseqences.

Dezmond said:

Oh please... you're just pulling statements out of your backside now.

Good video games get increasingly more difficult the deeper into the game you get, and even if death just leads to a respawn, it's still a setback and a failure on the part of the player. If this was not the case, you'd just end up with games that consisted entirely of endless "training levels" filled with explosive barrels and largely passive enemies.

That death is not the end in a video game is a concession to the fact that time spent not playing the game is, well, time spent not playing the game, and they want you to be playing the game. But death as a consequence of, and punishment for, failure, is still a significant part of those games - it is far from irrelevant. Once again, the thrill of success is proportional to the difficulty of the challenge - finally defeating the end of game boss after a dozen attempts, with only the merest fraction of your health/armour/shields/etc remaining is far more satisfying than floating through on God Mode unable to be harmed or challenged in any way.

If you're challenged and succeed, you can brag about it, it becomes memorable and interesting... success with no challenge is expected, mundane and of no consequence.

Hell, look at FFGs board games and 40k and warhammer and the total lack of long term conseqences.

Are you kidding?

Every dead model in a 40k or WFB army is a model not contributing to your army. That's a consequence. Within the game itself, losing all your models is a defeat, which is what you want to avoid - that's a consequence. It's irrelevant whether they last beyond the game or not... there is still a drawback to 'death', and the most satisfying games are those where the result is close and tense to the last moment.

Unless you're a filthy power-gamer, in which case you deserve to be bludgeoned with hammers and then shot out of a cannon into a cactus farm on a day where they're giving away free razor blades, salt and lemon juice.

+++++Every dead model in a 40k or WFB army is a model not contributing to your army.+++++

Till they respawn for the next battle. See how many takers you get if you crush a figure every time they die. Or the quality of painting...

+++++But death as a consequence of, and punishment for, failure, is still a significant part of those games+++++

I'd be more than happy to see a Marine RPG where you just respawn at the last checkpoint, as it works in those games.

Bloody double tap. Anyway, the failure penalty is important, and permadeath is just to harsh, especially if you want lots of combat.