AJCarrington said:

It is a good one to show how Arbites, Inquisitors, Astartes and others can work together in the same adventure. Plus that Dark Eldar lord was just nasty.

I did a lot of work on Space Marine rules (advancements, weapons, vehicle) which may still be up at Dark Reign before Real Life happily distracted me. I have got back into running a regular Dark Heresy game and brought up the Space Marine-as-a-character question and got the best response for why it is NOT part of Dark Heresy from the guy playing his first roleplaying game. I quote (or come close): "I thought this game was a detective game about a secret organization. How do you hide a 2m tall guy who is near-legendary in the universe? I guess that character does a lot of hiding and waiting until everyone else works hard to find the bad guys."

I don't think it is even an issue of over-powering... meltaguns kill Space Marines (heck the errata'ed Accurate weapon rules makes wearing your helmet a must!) and high-rank psykers do nasty things to everyone... they are simply too larger-than-life to want to play in an investigative game. Many of the printed adventures talk about what to do if the characters start screaming "Stop in the name of the Holy Inquisition!" so can you imagine the reaction when bad guys find out that an Emperor's Angel of Death is in town??

There is also an interesting article by Gav Thorpe titled "Using Space Marines" that was done for the Inquisitor game (yes, I know it is a "different game" and with a broke system since "they couldn't even get the Sisters of Battle to work") which makes some good points regarding a Space Marine in a warband/retinue/whatever. Anyone using or thinking of using Space Marines should look this up (try the Specialist Games UK link). Another thought... how many novels have a Space Marine working with acolytes? (Remember, in Dark Heresy you are not the Inquisitor, only his peon.)

That being said, Space Marines do have a place in the universe and I am working on a campaign to take my players from "chosen of the tribes" through initiation, scout training and up through the ranks of battle brother. This will be an all Space Marine game.

Back to reading DotDG!

-Cynr

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1320038_Using_Space_Marines.pdf

Heh, well no one ever said Marines can't be played.

For those of you who read the Deathwatch and even the Ord Maellus's version, you'll know they do some of the same things an acolyte team would do...but not in action. They literally work with the inquisitors (not being spoon fed mind you...even they know not to piss of an Astartes the Emperors chosen...too much.) and take on a more direct approach to combating threats that are way more powerful then a non-Astartes could handle.

Just think about it: Would you send in a 15 year old, bad mouthed, uneducated white-trash git to go as your ambassador to another country to um..say China, or would you send in your 45 year old retired professor who actually grew up teaching in China? (insert whatever country it's just a silly example) That's about what you've got with your under-Inquistor level acolyte/disciples starting up and fumbling about in things they don't comprehend, vs your Astartes drilled out the ying-yang chapters who deal with bigger larger then they are issues at gunpoint or with the Emperor's blessing.

So know imagine this: Your acolytes are now under the command (for missions, having been serquested by the Ordo) of an Astartes. What's going to happen? (and there's no way in Throne are they going to be giving orders to an Astartes, better just shoot them now and save the Torture for real heresy.) I could safely bet that the Astartes will have a Chapter agenda that isn't exactly in good standing with either a corrupt Inquisitor, and/or a certain acolyte or two who 'look the other way' or 'dabble' in the proscribed ideas/thinking while on and off the job. And let's face it, the average Imperial labour dredge doesn't see the larger-then-life Astartes walking on thier planets. You reckon an Imperial governor wants that sort of thing on his planet? Astartes usually means all hell broke loose, or could....let alone an Inquisitor making an appearance in-person.

My narrow-viewpoint however. It's a ficitious universe after all, and like most writers, each one sees it in a slightly different way. Which one can tell just in a Upper Thames author fron England vs a little-known US farm town writer. Different backgrounds = different views and experiences. So, that being said, All we have to go on is what others are writting. If they haven't released Space Marines for Dark Heresy there's a good reason for it.

I already explained the original 'design' for the 40K RPG system in a minor detail (from what I knew mind you). It's kind of like what Warhammer Fantasy did: They released the Empire and it's people first. Then they expanded a tad into other locations with varied careers and talents/skills/powers. Then came expansions for magic, even the Skaven as a whole got thier own play book and finally chaos/mutants was inroduced. Can you see the pattern yet? They did it in steps. Small steps first. They didn't just hand you chaos warriors in the beggining and say: Have at it. You'd basically say screw the Empire and go for all the power-ish type of careers/abilites. (Admit it...most players look for something 'cool' or for some sort of variety. They don't all want to be the cookie cutter barely-above Human norm character who's the rat catcher.) Why be a Human when you can take that to the next level and be a mutant hiding things, and with a certain extra kick in reserve from mutations...all while being a loyal servant of the Empire? Oh yeah and I'm curious just how many people who've played WHFRP actually roll random and play things like a sheep herder (Brenton), or a rat catcher? To be honest that's great, but I've yet to play a group where someone liked it while being paired with a hedge wizard, a noble, and an Inititate of Sigmar.

Right, so I got away from the topic again. Well, some people have the home-brew ideals already going...but just know that putting in a full-on Astartes player is like putting in one of the old D&D Lawful stupid paladins into your Neutral aligned group of mercs or dabblers arcane. It's Pandoras box, and you've now got more to worry about then what is out to get you in the next corner. And if you're all Astartes then again, you're all beyond what Acolytes would and might do.Hence thier relase later...when people have a feel for al the other things that go on in the Galaxy that are usually beneath or out of context what Astartes do and see themselves.

Actually on the oringal posters topic though...Astartes bolters and power armmour are far beyond what even the non-Augmented Sisters use. Mostly because one shot and the recoil from a Mars-pattern bolter is enough to tear out a normal Humans arm out of thier socket, let alone the damage rolled and ammo capacity is greater. (The weapons and armour are physically bigger as befits thier size, but this is all in the book already) Another reason why people should be weary...there's very few threats an Acolyte team face that match the damage output and absorbtion of an Astartes (yet)...and if they do, they usually run! The threats and 'adventures' Astartes will face have not been released yet. It will be on-par with something even they can barely handle and will certainly face annihilation from if things turn out that way.

One side note of interest though: I've been thinking of putting in say, a 'retired' and/or ancient Astartes with no Chapter armour/weapons. (It's happened rarely, that one millenia old immortal who never was killed or maimed enough to be put into a machine) That's one of the best ways to see if you and the players could actually handle such a difference in characters. Take away the big boys toys and see if they can go about using thier brains and natural apptitudes with the small boys. The player who suceeds (one way or another as thier is no right way eh), is certianly one who might enjoy the game even more once they realise there's more to the game then Astartes = Jedi of Warhammer 40K. (It's just like taking away a Jedis lightsabre and perhaps even thier connection to the force...when the player can still play the 'Jedi' character albiet disabled for a while, then you know they really thought about things through.)

Luddite said:

Et tu, Luddite?

So all character types have exactly the same roleplaying potential, and no one class will have their actions determined by dogma and their background more than any other?

As you perhaps condescendingly put it

"Um.

No."

What do Space Marines do? They fight, they maintain their weapons, and they pray. they are essentially warrior-monks. Their lives are stark, spartan, and austere in comparison to most imperial servants.

Saying that Space Marines have no less opportunities than anyone else, is like saying that a Sister of Battle is exactly as flexible as a scum character.

I'm sure Space marines have a tonne of interesting character dilemmas regarding their responsibliities to the duties and secrets of the chapter, ther own origins, inter-chapter relations et al, but that doesn't make their roleplaying experience as varied and interesting as an acolyte, or inquisitor. Sure, as someone pointed out above, you can have a Space Marine who bungles his mission and lies to his superiors to cover it up, but that's nothing if not out of character, isn't it? And there's nothign wrong with playing characters that run against the archetype... except the archetype for space marines is so limited, everyone will be either a living cliché, or completely against type. You're welcome to cite examples to prove me wrong rather than insult my intelligence.

Frankly I expected better from a forumite of your stature.

*sniffs*

[/hissy fit]

[/tongue in cheek]

Seriously though.

Locque said:

Perhaps.

And you should expect better from me. My intent was not to offend although you had every right to take offence (tongue in cheek or not), given my brusque and terse retort.

I unreservedly apologise.

My comment was actually aimed at a wider expression, but I tritely used your sentence to feed my quote.

There does seem to me to be a tremendous amount of misunderstanding concerning the nature of roleplaying in this argument, which seems to be an argument concerning gamist mechanics more than anything.

Locque said:

Yes. All characters have EXACTLY the same roleplaying potential .

Space Marines.

These are variously described as too powerful , or as you say here…

Locque said:

…too limited in scope.

Neither are true.

The argument that space marines are ‘too powerful’ to be used in Dark Heresy for example, is a purely gamist argument, and a comment on the possible failing of the rules to encompass the perceived fluff-based ‘power levels’ of marines.

Of course that’s highly debatable, and for me more a comment on limitations of the GM and players imaginations. After all, a ‘combat monster’ PC such as a space marine will only dominate during combat; an encounter type that should be rare in a horror-investigation game surely? If your Dark Heresy games are simply a series of combat encounters strung together…well…space marines WILL dominate in a mechanical sense, and RIGHTLY so.

The counter argument, that space marines are ‘too limited’ to be used in Dark Heresy for example, is a roleplaying argument, and this is a comment on the misunderstanding of the nature of roleplaying.

ANY character can be roleplayed within any setting or group. You ask for cited examples…

Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring . Perhaps the forst and most famous of all ‘adventuring parties’ it consists of nine radically different characters, each playing a key collective and narrative role. Each has there own strengths and weaknesses. Yet Gandalf, is a wizard, and actually Godlike compared to say any of the hobbits. By the logic put forward in this thread, the Fellowship wouldn’t work because ‘Gandalf’s to powerful’. Yet it worked marvellously creating a masterpiece of fictional storytelling, and the father-text of all roleplaying…

Consider 40k. Forget the Dark Heresy rules for a moment.

Could a story be written in which a space marine, a tech priest, an Administratum adept, and a psyker were thrown together on a narrative journey?

Yes. In which case space marines can be readily roleplayed…

Locque said:

Personally I would find the strongly defined role of a space marine far easier to roleplay than the loose, woolly role of a ‘scum’. Indeed, that ‘scum’ is so ill-defined that it would be difficult to form a role that was anything other than ‘me’, whereas the role of a space marine has some really well-defined parameters to get to grips with.

Imagine an actor being told he’d been cast to play the lead role of ‘Hegarty’ in a play.

Scum version

Actor: What’s Hegarty like?

Director: Um. Don’t know. He’s flexible really. Make it up yourself.

Marine version

Actor: What’s Hegarty like?

Director: He fights, he maintains his weapons, and prays. He is essentially a warrior-monk. His life is stark, spartan, and austere in comparison to most imperial servants.

Which version provides the actor with a clearly defined role to play?

Which will he have more enjoyment and success enacting?

Which will be more helpful to the director in driving forwards the narrative of the play / story?

Consider this example in roleplaying terms...

Space Marines CAN be readily roleplayed. In fact they make excellent, well defined roles to play.

Space Marines can be readily incorporated into a Dark Heresy game, as the cultural clash between them and ‘normal citizen’ acolytes provides an amazingly rich seam of roleplaying opportunities…

The space marine is a ‘combat master’ role. It will only unbalance or break your game of Dark Heresy if you string together an endless series of combat encounters… outside of combat, the marine is a ‘fish out of water’…which is a challenging and fun role to play! Whereas when the bullets start flying, a group will benefit from a character that fulfils the role of combat master, surely?

The only objection that makes any sense is that the Dark Heresy rules mechanics themselves do not adequately encompass the ‘fluff’ capacities of the space marines…a debate for another thread however.

Ultimately, saying that 'space marine PCs cannot be incorporated into a Dark Heresy game' reveals the limitations of the imagination of those saying it…

After all, as i’ve said, I GMed a Discworld game where one player played a PC that was a drop-leaf table made of sapient pearwood…a PC that was an item of furniture on a personal quest to find his lost chairs…

The only limit to roleplaying is your imagination…

Luddite said:

Actualy, all members of the party were of very equal power level. The story would have been very boring if Gandalf had wiped out 100 orks alone. But he didnt (actually couldnt). He was on equal power level as Legolas, Aragorn, Gimli and Boromir. The hobbits, on the other hand, never had anything to do with fighting (except surviving), and would not have been fun to play as a player character during fights with all the other power houeses arround.

Of course you can roleplay everything. The question is: Is it fun?

RPing a marine in DH is not fun. Either you have lots of fighting, than the SM just dominates, other players do not have fun, or there is not lots of fighting, then the SM player cant do much, which is not fun either. q.e.d.

thanks to a forum hissy fit, I'm having trouble posting my reply... anyone ever have similar problems?

I think it may have something to do wtih the number of characters of number of quote tags in my post, but slicing the post in half doesn't work...

Serbitar said:

Er that is a bit of a definative statement - I have ran games where one player was a SM - and he had fun.........does that mean that all games with a SM will be fun - no, it just means the setting, characters and the story were right for the players...........

I think there is plenty of potential in SM character making - given prob more written about them as background than anything else, plus you have huge flexibility in creating a Chapter that could work if you don't like the cannon ones.

So the SM dominates the combat bit (doesn't someone usually do that?) - probably but then that makes sense and as long as the players all contribute thats fine - as GM you have to try and make sure everyone is involved...........same with non combat situations - either make them places that the SM can interact or give him somehting else to do. remember that whilst he may not be best at undercover - he can hwoever probably deal with people who would never deign to speak to the other players at the very least as an equal and often more. He can serve as a obvious preseence to mask the more devious presence if Acolytes work that way...........If the underhivers/villager/nomads doubt you speak for th Emperor - what says that you do better than a SM? Survival horror style games - he will be superb as the leader but would be all to willing to sacrifce himself if the mission demands it .

In the same way as it is possible to play a Xenos, just means the GM has to adapt the game to make it fun for the players (and him/her).............thats his job ? It may be harder but as Luddite says some players actively want to be given a clear character concept to play and a Space Marine can provide that template...........

This is not to say that it is right for your game - it may not be - that would be worng and arrogant of me to say as I know nothing about you

You as gm (?) get to decide how best your players will work and what aspects of the background / rules to use or not use.............making it fun.

Serbitar said:

Ok, but remember that we talk about roleplaying here. That is how you as player gives form to your character. That has actually nothing to do with battles or what kind of skills you have. That is what I, and I think Luddite, talks about. Not how your character contributes to the groups collected skills spectrum. Moreover, playing a really worthless character is lots of fun, if you manage to roleplay it in a way that both you and you fellow players like. I like to do it at least

And since none manage to argue against it, roleplaying a Space Marine is just as easy/hard as any other kind character. No matter how much praying, training or weapons care they have. Besides if the surrounding is right a marine could indeed take part in a investigation. It is 40K, not your local supermarket and there are after also Ogryns in the setting.

Perhaps.

And you should expect better from me. My intent was not to offend although you had every right to take offence (tongue in cheek or not), given my brusque and terse retort.

I unreservedly apologise.

My comment was actually aimed at a wider expression, but I tritely used your sentence to feed my quote.

There does seem to me to be a tremendous amount of misunderstanding concerning the nature of roleplaying in this argument, which seems to be an argument concerning gamist mechanics more than anything.

All eyes be upon him, forumites, for this is how a gentleman conducts himself.

Yes. All characters have EXACTLY the same roleplaying potential .

This keeps being said again and again, and we're going around in circles, so I'll put forward, as articulately as I can, the bit I disagree with.

Certain character archetypes will have their actions restricted in-game. For instance, a tech-priest follows a strict doctrine. This is most evident when interacting with technology. Where a Scum character might recover data from an imperial security system by releasing a virus that effectively destroys the system, but gives the information, by hacking it, or by obtaining a password, the tech-priest is restricted to any course of action that won't harm the database. Similarly, they'll be loath to wreck, destroy, or currupt the holy form of any machinery they encounter during their adventures. If they encounter, say, someone using Janus Similacra and passing them off as a dead noble family, they're pretty much restricted to going on a murderous rampage, or getting the local AdMech to go on a murderous rampage on their behalf. Any other reaction is simply too far off-type.

A Sister of Battle won't broker deals with heretics. They all have to burn. An Adepta Sororitas who offered a heretic their lives, and actually kept the promise would simply be too far out of line herself. Now it's possible to roleplay a tech-priest who says "Awesome use of Janus Similacra there, Jim", or a Battle Sister who brokers deals with heretics, but you're exploring territory likely to get your character executed. Also "roleplaying potential" is a poorly-defined term. is roleyplaying potential the amount of variety and flexibility you can introduce into the character? What the character can do? How fun the character is to play?

Space Marines.

These are variously described as too powerful , or as you say here…

…too limited in scope.

Neither are true.

The argument that space marines are ‘too powerful’ to be used in Dark Heresy for example, is a purely gamist argument, and a comment on the possible failing of the rules to encompass the perceived fluff-based ‘power levels’ of marines.

Of course that’s highly debatable, and for me more a comment on limitations of the GM and players imaginations. After all, a ‘combat monster’ PC such as a space marine will only dominate during combat; an encounter type that should be rare in a horror-investigation game surely? If your Dark Heresy games are simply a series of combat encounters strung together…well…space marines WILL dominate in a mechanical sense, and RIGHTLY so.

The counter argument, that space marines are ‘too limited’ to be used in Dark Heresy for example, is a roleplaying argument, and this is a comment on the misunderstanding of the nature of roleplaying.

Consider 40k. Forget the Dark Heresy rules for a moment.

Could a story be written in which a space marine, a tech priest, an Administratum adept, and a psyker were thrown together on a narrative journey?

Yes. In which case space marines can be readily roleplayed…

Frankly I wouldn't claim marines are "too powerful", because, as you pointed out, they'll only dominate combat scenarios. It's a roleplay game, and hopefully the emphasis isn't on combat (Though i suppose a space marine would open up ways to progress in the adventure through combat. Can't find a ticket for the ball? Well brother Gregorius can drag the bouncer out back and snap his neck. but such times are few and far betwee, so what's Gregorius doing the rest of the time? Anyone who sees him is going to react with fear and wonder, which limits things somewhat.

Personally I would find the strongly defined role of a space marine far easier to roleplay than the loose, woolly role of a ‘scum’. Indeed, that ‘scum’ is so ill-defined that it would be difficult to form a role that was anything other than ‘me’, whereas the role of a space marine has some really well-defined parameters to get to grips with.

Imagine an actor being told he’d been cast to play the lead role of ‘Hegarty’ in a play.

Scum version

Actor: What’s Hegarty like?

Director: Um. Don’t know. He’s flexible really. Make it up yourself.

Marine version

Actor: What’s Hegarty like?

Director: He fights, he maintains his weapons, and prays. He is essentially a warrior-monk. His life is stark, spartan, and austere in comparison to most imperial servants.

Which version provides the actor with a clearly defined role to play?

Which will he have more enjoyment and success enacting?

Which will be more helpful to the director in driving forwards the narrative of the play / story?

Consider this example in roleplaying terms...

Space Marines CAN be readily roleplayed. In fact they make excellent, well defined roles to play.

Space Marines can be readily incorporated into a Dark Heresy game, as the cultural clash between them and ‘normal citizen’ acolytes provides an amazingly rich seam of roleplaying opportunities…

Well if you put it that way, of course not, however in my experience, players enjoy creating their own characters.

But what if the director's reply was: "He's the scum of the earth- a shady character. He can be a disgraced noble, a gang leader a drug-dealer, muscle for hire, a mugger, a con-man, a tech-salvager, hitman. He's a dreg either way. Wether it be a charming cad, or a cut-throat, or anywhere in between is up to you "? It'd seem that one has more freedom than the other, no? now as you mentioned, perhaps the space marine is going to serve the director better as a tool to drive the story forward, but I tend not to rely on one specific PC acting in a predictable manner to push my story forward. This could be new, since my pc's are new to me, and still developing their characters in ways that surprise me. Maybe when I have a bit more experience under my belt I'll understand better, or maybe someone will explain it and it'll click, because honestly, I'm not convinced yet.

Look at it in terms of professions: a guardsman character can be a merc, a psychotic criminal, a gang heavy, a guardsman, a bounty hunter etc before their talents were recognised by the inquisition.

A Space Marine is a Space Marine.

The only objection that makes any sense is that the Dark Heresy rules mechanics themselves do not adequately encompass the ‘fluff’ capacities of the space marines…a debate for another thread however.

Oddly enough, I had mentioned that last night, but deleted it as I was wandering waaaaay off topic. I think I've mentioned it elsewhere in the topic though.

Ultimately, saying that 'space marine PCs cannot be incorporated into a Dark Heresy game' reveals the limitations of the imagination of those saying it…

The only limit to roleplaying is your imagination…

*howl of frustration*

This Forum is indeed a testing and challenging place if you want actually want to, like, post sutff

Serbitar said:

Really? You have read Lord of the Rings have you?

Serbitar said:

Of course he couldn't.

Which is why he was so limited in power that he was the only one of the Fellowship able to stand against and eventually defeat the Balrog in the Mines of Moria, or drive off the Nazgul on the Plains of Pelennor (during Faramir's flight from Osgilliath), or survive the assaults of Saruman as a Grey Wizard and eventually defeat him as a White Wizard, or 'travel out of time and thought' during his ascendancy to the power of the White Wizard, or shield the Shire from the gaze of Sauron, or command the respect of immortal Elrond, or entreat the Ents, or identify the Ring of Power...etc...

Gandalf was godlike in power compared to every other member of the Fellowship...yet he played his role and the group worked.

Serbitar said:

Well that's true. Except that Samwise defeated the ancient demon Shelob...Pippin helped Eowyn kill the Nazgul...and Frodo, unlike any other member of the Fellowship was able to resist the corrupting power of the Ring for so long...something even the all-powerful Gandalf was unable to do...

Serbitar said:

Um, this is a simplistic appraisal and an example of my assertion that there's a great deal of misunderstanding about the nature of roleplaying.

The relative 'fun' of the above situation is an entirely gamist approach. (Its not fair, he can kill lots more than me! Its not fair, my marine is hopeless at investigating).

Roleplaying any character in any situation can be fun if you enjoy roleplaying . Roleplaying a marine trying to cope in a non-combat environement sounds like fun to me...

+++++You're welcome to cite example+++++

Well, the obvious place to start is Dan Abbnetts Marine novels.

--

My idea of how to do Space Marines is personified by the video game Too Human:-

It is Norse Mythology with a sci-fi twist. The Aesir are cybernetically enhance humans battling Machines who look like trolls and goblins. The Norns are NORNS - Non Organic Rational Nanosystems, AI entities who live in cyberspace. Sgood stuff. The way the Gods interact with each other is just how I see Space Marines behaving.

Locque said:

I've had to do this with other RPG's as well. I GMed many a session of Star Wars and everyone wanted to be a jedi - well, almost everyone... there was this one player who wanted to be an Ewok A flippin' EWOK, Gah! ... ah well, another time another forum... - so, I made a ruling to have but one jedi per party. I think if given the opportunity to work with PC Space Marines, I would have to do the same until I got more comfortable with how the group worked with one.

Locque said:

I think the main problem here is a slight confusion between character potential and character concept.

Sure, a character fallowing the Guardsmen career can be a merc, psychotic criminal, a gang heavy, or an Imperial Guardsmen, but he can't be all of them. Wait, okay, he can be a psychotic ex-Imperial Guardsmen merc hired out as a gang heavy, but that would preclude him from being a heroic Imperial Guardsmen commander and, as such, limit the character. Once it is decided that he is a psychotic ex-Imperial Guardsmen merc hired out as a gang heavy the parameters for acceptable in-character actions and actions that are just strait up out of character will be set. Courageously sacrificing himself to save his men whom he cares about or those strangers in that village over there would be far fetched and trying to find a non-violent solution to a problem that just begs for a glorious blood bath with few personal repercussions would be right out -he is, after all, a psychopath with few scrouples as defined in his concept.

All characters independent of career will be limited by their concept.

Tight careers with a more limited scope of what character concepts can be found within don't limit roleplay, they limit character concept which is really only applicable during character creation. They are more like prepackaged character concepts where as the more open careers are do it your self kits for a character concept. In the end, all characters will have one by the time the game starts and, as such, each will be limited in what they can or can not convincingly do.

To summarize:

Career == Limits Concept

Concept == Limits Roleplay Possibility.

Career =/= Limits Roleplay Possibility.

+++++I suppose there is a selfish little part of me that does not want the players to have that same kind of fun.+++++

I think you'd have a lot more fun if you let people. Having players with real enthusiasm for their characters and allowing them initiative in what goes on is only good for gaming.

For all those people that said playing a Marine can't be done, my question for them is have you tried? I gather from their positions presented no they haven't tried out TC: Adeptus Astartes. Also, it's quite obvious concerning the statements regarding their investigative abilities. In TC: AA, we presented Marines that adhered to the fluff starting with their careers as a neophyte which every other career starts at. However, the main difference between a standard game of DH and one with Marines is scope of the threats presented. Keep in mind, that TC: AA adheres to what is already presented stat-wise for AA characters. My final comment is try before you knock it. If you've tried the rules and don't like them that's fine, but those that haven't tried and knock them shame on ya.

Dezmond said:

Locque said:

Perhaps a gentleman would not have been so uncouth to have caused you offence in the first place?

Robban-O said:

Well, I guess the argument has now officially become subjective. I think on one end you have the roleplay light folks who generally just want to roll dice and use their abilities.

Then you have folks who don't seem to give a lick about their character sheet, and just want to roleplay a personality with background.

And then there are those of us who want both. We care about having a good story / personality to roleplay, and want to fit into the "skill spectrum." And on some level, I feel like a characters skills feed into the personality.

Also, as a member of an inquisitorial team of accolytes, formed to be effective at doing jobs, How can you justify (from a roleplay perspective) your possibly useless character that doesn't fit well into the teams skill spectrum, even being on the team? I don't think you can, and even if you can, there can't be that many excuses. In the end, I feel like not useful characters are quickly let go or killed.

Honestly, if Space Marines are allowed into the game, what's the point of having a guardsman class? If you tone down the mechanics of the SM, what's the point of having the SM? Isn't an SM just a Guardsman on steroids?

Of course, I'm oversimplifying, But my point is that from a roleplay perspective, couldn't you just flavor a guardman with equipment and a background and still have an SM, if you're not after the power of the mechanics?

Anyhow, I'm done trying to unjumble my thoughts at the moment. Argue / flame / belittle me as you like.

Starting to lose track here...

Seems people are wondering if Space Marines are playable period? of course they are...you just have to give them a different scale of play. Which again is why they'll be in their own game manual, later on. This all sounds like boiling it down, can we insert Space Marines as is into an Acolyte game? (Er, correct me if I'm wrong though, as I might be misreading things,) That's basically a given: Not as we know them.

Most of you seem to be giving reasons to play them (which is the way it will be later on when we have the game for them!), however you're just reinforcing the need to still have them in thier seperate role for dealing with things beyond Acolytes Ordo missions; As is why they are in Chapters in the first place and not in the regular Humanised forces of the Imperium. If Astartes were just running around in loose squads attached to the daily Imperium Administra and Adepta, then they wouldn't exactly be regard with the mythical awe and kow-towing Generals and Governers give them. There'd be very little an Inquisitor could get done behind the scenes (Not saying out in the open which is why they have the Deathwatch and the like), and mix into the populaces of all the worlds they must go into and infiltrate.

The first thing a cult (or whatever) is going to do when someone sees/says Astartes is get the hades out of dodge and bunker up tight; that or they bring out the big deamons, xeons, threats and do more damage then can be fixed to get rid of the said threat. It's like using a nuke to wipe off your shoes. Blunt objects don't work in helpful precise surgery people, heh. Would you bee keen on having your surgeon take out a sledgehammer to remove a small odd growth from say...your nose? That's what using Astartes to find what's hidden amonst the people you are protecting is like. Acolytes are the small sharp knife, the kind of instrument you wouldn't send out into a full-on battlefield as your main force. There to you your opposite reason, an acolyte team would be smeared attempting to do what Astartes do alone, and the same is true for Astartes doing what Acolytes do alone they'd fail...mostly because they stand out and don't work like that in general. Apples and oranges, you just can't compare the way each work in conjunction with what the other does...else they wouldn't be seperate to begin with, heh.

Sorry to use lame anologies. Just attempting to put the focus on seeing how or why people believe Astartes can/can't work in Dark Hersey as main characters in an Acolyte group. (And I'm basically a can't, but as NPCs/mentors/trainers/etc possibly as that's just good story telling and doesn't interfere with the Acolyte focus of Dark hersey at all.)

Dak Rogers said:

Not sure.

How are a guardsman and a space marine's roles different?

Is a space marine really just a guardsman on steroids?

++++Is a space marine really just a guardsman on steroids?++++

Hells no. A Marine is a goddam superhero.

I gotta say, I don't see how anything based on the Dark Heresy engine is ever going to be able to handle the high-intensity combat needed for a Marine game.