Locque said:

I don't think a Marines inability to go incognito, play Scooby-Doo, or have tea and pleasant conversations with some dreg is really an issue in their roleplayablity. Like it has been said before, a third of the careers presented for roleplaying would have the same problems. Can a Cyber-Seer blend into a small agri-town and have pleasant conversations with the local old folks over tea? Probably not, but some damned memorable and roleplayable characters can be made from Tech-Priest stock.

If your telling a story about Marines, I don't think it should revolve around tea time and quiet investigations to root out some hidden cult in some sleepy agri-town... unless it's bizarre comedy gold your going for. You also probably wouldn't tell war stories with a group of Adepts and Scum and a group pf Clerics and Saroitas probably wouldn't be the best crew for a gripping crime drama. If you have a group of Marines, then the stories are probably going to revolve around battle and war with a nice subtext of what it is to be a marine. In a Deathwatch kind of setting, a good deal of roleplay on a shallow level would certainly revolve around the differences in chapters and traditions between the marines coming into contact with one another fallowed by figuring out who said marine is outside those traditions and chapters .

Eh, my point, every character has limitations. Once the concept has been decided upon, there are certain things that are just right out for that character. Such doesn't make them any less roleplayable as long as the GM doesn't decide to up and structure a game around that thing that the characters concept precludes them from doing.

Yeah, Marines should be doing Marine adventures.

Which are going to more resemble Pendragon quests than Dark Heresy mookfests:-

Lots of challenging and whatnot.

Although Cadfael or William of Baskerville make fine investigators. And the cops in CSI or Numbers or whatever don't work undercover. They turn up and ask questions in the open until they get their answers.

I think I posted this on the old forums once. Space Marines are a viable campaign option, it just depends how you do it. The novels show that their are many variant personalities and the backround fluff for 40K centers on that concept. Hello, traitor marines! If anything, most space marines have to resist temptation more then most humans, and they know how their ancestors fell from grace, that can be quite a burden to shoulder, even if you do have unnatural strength and +20 S power armour.

We played in a HERO campaign years ago where we mimicked Law and Order. It was a sci-fi setting where we played bladerunner stylized cops investigating crimes and what not. And when the crime was finally solved and the hide out was revealed, the game switched focus. Out investigators went home, or watched on the sidelines as the SWAT teams went in to clean out the thugs and criminals and out SWAT guys were more like robocop.

Could do the same in Dark Heresy using Patriot's rules for Astartes.

Acolytes investigate heretics, find clues, do some legwork and interrogating, bribe a few folks, track a cultist, capture him deduce where the cult is and what its up to. Recons the site, gets some data and bam, calls in teh Space Marines to clean the house.

Each player has two characters, a normal Acolyte and a Space Marine. To make it more interesting, just give each player one XP award that he must divide between the two characters. Do you uber up your Space Marine who may be in 1 or 2 scenes per adventure or your Acolyte who does all the investigating and talking and occassional fighting?

Could be fun.

Graver said:

well one can't argue with that. I for one ouldn't want to play a game doing "space marine" scenarios, but that's a matter of personal preference. I don't see why anyone would want to either. I honestly don't get how anyone can claim space marines are just as versatile as other characters, but to each their own, and if it's what you want, by all means, go for it, I'm sure Deathwatch will be entertaining as hell when it comes out. A tech priest sure can't sit down and jabber away over tea, but he's got more investigative opetions open to him than a Space Marine. However many things you can isolate that a tech priest can't do, I can name five for a space marine. but that's merely my persception and the game you would want to play with a SM character isn';t the same RPG I would.

Yeah, Im not really interested in playing DeathWatch either, but Im sure as hell going to buy the **** thing.

Well, I love Space Marines. Have since the first day of secondry school when Rodney Clark brought in his little men. Can't wait to feel the earth tremble beneath my dudes powered armoured feet.

--

See, I think that with Marines your sources are Greek/Norse/Whatever myths.

Epic Heros performing might deeds. They are Hector and Achilles, Gilgamesh, The Master Chief and Marcus Fenix. Really memetically powerful concepts.

--

If you squit a bit, God of War is the story of the selection of a new Space Marine:-

And here a Space Marine turns down a request for assistance from an upity Guard general:-

Dezmond said:

No that is a video game and that is a scene from 300. If anything, 300 would be the refusal of a space marine chapter to bow down to a chaos daemon prince when the rest of the homeworld is ready to.

Some of you will probably call me a heretic, but I've always though that Space Marines were kind of boring.

I'll admit that there is a bit of a cool factor for giant genetically enhanced supersoldiers in indestructible suits of armor, but that's all they have going for them.

In the fluff they are near indistructable, capable of taking on armies hundreds of times larger and walking away with out a scratch. In the table top game they are so idiot proof that even a ten year old that just started playing the game can win against almost any other army. I find that boring as hell. Give me an average Joe guardsman or slightly above average techpriest over a Space Marine any day of the week.

If you were to make a fluff accurate Space Marine PC for DH, he would be way too powerful. He would be able to completely wipe out any threats he came across single handedly, leaving nothing for the other PCs to do in combat. Even a Marine character that is only accurate to the Table Top rules would still be overpowered.

Plus, like others have said, 9 feet tall genetically enhanced superhumans really don't fit in to an investigation based game. And yes, I know you can make the same argument for half-cyborg techpriests, but I'd immagine they'd be a slightly more common sight in the imperium than a gigantic superman.

I tend to agree with you. I think that Space Marines are one of the key iconic figures in the 40K mythos, but I don't think they lend themselves to Dark Heresy (at least in its current incarnation). I think one could do a pretty cool variant campaign based around the development of a Space Marine scout squad, but beyond entirely fighting/combat focused games, I think they'd stick out like a sore thumb.

AJC

Speak of the devil...

Some great points made here about the fluff for a tabletop game versus fluff for a roleplaying game. I would love to see the WH 40k RP line come up with a take on space marines that integrates well with existing 40k lore but also cannonizes more flexibility of character. The opportunity to detail certain things and explore their roleplaying / personal aspects in more depth is one of the things I like so much about Dark Heresy, so I'd certainly allow that it could happen in Deathwatch.

If anything, 300 would be the refusal of a space marine chapter to bow down to a chaos daemon prince when the rest of the homeworld is ready to.

Yes, thats a far better excuse to shoehorn it in.

--

but I don't think they lend themselves to Dark Heresy

Yes. This is why a Space Marine game is going to have to be marketed separatly from Dark Heresy. Whole different play experience.

It's a mindset thing. Marines take on and overcome epic challenges. Marines are an excuse to break out all the truly exotic and exciting parts of the setting:-

Marines can eat those anime prettyboys (and girls) for brekfast, while the Imperium does megaengineering on a scale that dwarfs even the halo.

I disagree. We don't need an entirely new game just to play as space marines. A simple sourcebook with Equipment lists, Paths, and maybe a few talents n' skills would suffice. Some cool Chapter specific homeworlds and what not. Maybe a few new varient careers for specifics like going Wulfen. That would easily fit into a nifty "little" sourcebook.

Hmm, the best topc yet.

Fortunetly if anyone was paying attention to this game beore it made the big switch in publishers etc, you'd know a huge (well back then, since I can't speak for Fantasy flight games) fact of the game and how it's going to evolve in terms of game play. Especially getting towards the Deathwatch. (and thank you to those who've pointed it out!)

The Warhammer 40K roleplaying game concept has three stages, or steps if you were.

1.) Dark Hersey- The Inquisition. This is the 'entry level' game system. It's here to introduce us to the Imperium and life within it. We start small as the Humans, mutants and the like to start small and get a taste of the universe and the story unfolding in general. Investigation is the key here.

2.) Rogue Traders (no name yet). The next step in Warhammer 40K roleplaying is to intriduce playrs to life outside the Imperium. Alien species (Eldar, Tau etc) and how they and Humans operate outiside the eternally gloom Imperium and Inquisition. It's the next step up as the things going on here, deal with characters and player options that go beyond the scope of Dark Heresy. (Hint hint: as this is a quote from the book itself here...empahasis beyond the scope of Dark Heresy that means there will be more, above and beyond. Just look up the rogue traders page in the main book and you'l get it.) Thiungs are at tad more powerful, but then again so are the adventures and theme of the game here. Inquisitors and the higher ups fit into this category. After all you're just disiples in Dark hersey...what happens afterward? This is it.

3.) Deathwatch. (no name yet) The final(?) step in the big Warhammer 40K roleplay scheme is to get your roleplaying group involved in the fan boi drooling dream: Space Marines and all the hard death dealing enemies you're going to get wtf owned by sometimes. The reason this is deathwatch is because most players will want to keep the 'varied' groups they had with different professions and skills. Having one homogeneous chapter is not that varied when you boil it down. Being from different chapters and serving a goal is akin to Dark hersey, that game we all start with...just because you're on the big step of 40K roleplaying, doesn't mean you lose the overall feel of the game. A group of varied background players serving a higher cause? (Well maybe but chaos is chaos no matter how big or little your character is, heh heh.) Anyways with Deathwatch, you can have anything from a Green Mantis warrior, an Imperial fists Captain, an Ultramarine Terminator, along with a Blood Angels Sergeant, and a Crimson fists Chaplain, not to metnion a psycher and a neophyte scout. Still seeing the same theme here? Varied profession trees and backgrounds (instead of Imperial, Feral or Void born etc, you have your chapter as a background.)

Anywho...we'll have the space marines eventually. Until then know that Dark hersey doesn't fit into the scope of what space marines do. You can always move the Sisters, Imperial Army/Navy and Inquistion to the big battles and extremeness of the Space Marine 'life', (and anyone who's read the books and played the minis knows this), but it's harder to bring the larger-then-life marines into something as mudane as political backstabbing and hopping from underhive to farmground looking for signs of hersey...secetly and well, not always quietly. They just stand out and have to many 'restrictions' on behaviour that 'Humans' do not have...for the most part. (And it was stated even with the sisters of battle that they are not to be plated lightly in the scope of Dark Hesey. But I'm sure they'd be fun in an Space Marine Deathwatch campaign.)

Darn I've babbled on long enough. To summerise: Space Marines should be coming....just don't expect them for Dark Hersey play.

Mekanitz said:

Oh but we do. As we can see, people have trouble seeing how Marines would fit in to Dark Heresy. That is fine. They don't. They belong in the Marine game, which bears the same relationship to Dark Heresy that Exalted does to Call of Cthulhu.

For apropriate games we have Agon:-

http://www.agon-rpg.com/

a semi-competetive game of greek heroism. Players compete for whose characters name will shine the brightest.

or Hellas

http://www.hellasrpg.com/joomla/

for interstellar greek heroics.

Also worth noting is 3:16

https://www.indiepressrevolution.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16652&cat=0&page=1

for it's inovative damage mechanics - a successful attack will deal something like D10 to D100 kills - for a possible 1-100 fools pwned in a single round!

Solardream said:

Scope? Or angenda/focus? It's an important distinction, or at least it is to me.

Solardream said:

Well, there is always the way that it happens in the other games. That is, it is a part of the game rather than a means by which one determines the game is "not the game."

Solardream said:

Which just suggest what is expected: Dark Heresy was not designed to handle "40k RPG." That doesn't make it any way bad, but it does mean that we need to understand what it was designed for...

Kage

Locque said:

Your examples are not tied to roleplaying but how the profession (if you actually can call being a space marine a profession) has limitations. That is true, but really not the issue. What you are talking about is making good stories and campaign with a group member that is a space marine and although that is a good thread by itself it has nothing to the ability to roleplay a space marine.

Could a space marine lie? Well, I have never heard of it but on the other hand have not seen anything that would make it impossible. I they can become corrupt and fullfledged heretics they can certainly lie.

Solardream said Rogue trader probably give opportunity to player to go over level 8 and introduce full inquisitor rank ....i certainly hope so

About space marine not a part of dark heresy i m more reticent to agreed

as player your probably right ...space marine is not realy the type of guys you see in a acolyte group under the command of an inquisitor (the deathwatch is an elte full SM group of ordo xeno and grey night part of xeno malleus but they are out of the normal acolyte system except in very rare occasion and those very rare occasion is 1 sm in a group (no more)

as npc they have a role to play..........deathwacth can come in play when you acte under ordo xeno ___as ressources to fight very important xeno threath, as contact for xeno investigation, as strike team finishing the job...(your team gathering the information and data needed to expose a xeno threath) a team of grey night can come in play to help an inquisitor acolyte group to fight a particular an powerfull deamon or mutans groups

All acolyte mission dont end when they kill or elliminate the treath, some job is to find evidences on a threath and some more appropriate ressourses are use to end the situation .....

they can be use as a heavy intervention team in deadly situation (to save the acolyte life...) or to evacuate the hight ranking poeple of the hive, station, planet before the enemy get them or kill them They are in those case, the last ressort or option (maybie both) of the boss commanding the acolyte in case they failed or the threah is too big to be controled by the acolyte

in any situation they are special ressources use only when all other option have failed or are not enough to control and end the situation or as a source of information or as an element of the imperial global picture (just a part of the ambiance in that case) in all of them they are npc

In Xenos (Dan Abnett) Eisenhorn and the other inquisitor have a member of the Deathwarch whit them and there acolyte to boost the strenght of the team again the xenos and the heretic they faced in 56-izar raid to detroy the necro book (call necroteuque in french) so SM in dark heresy context is possible but dont appen too often.

Y'see... some of you have grasped it and others are just missing the point entirely....

"Space Marines don't belong in a Dark Heresy game". Of course they don't! Thats why they'll be available in the DEATHWATCH game.

Dark Heresy = Investigation

Rogue Trader = Exploration

Death Watch = ... Carnage?

It's hard to say at this point in time, but to those arguing that "Marines don't work in an investigation game", who ever said they should, would or were ever going to?

Some people like Cthulhu, some like Exalted, some like Traveller. Hell, some even like Ninja Burger!

If you don't like the idea of a combat oriented rpg, don't play Deathwatch. Leave it for those who do want such things.

Myself and my players are all versatile enough that we happily play any of the above rpg's. We like a change once in a while.

We put a Scion Demigod-level campaign on hold to come to Dark Heresy (one hell of a scenario and power-level change!) and once we've finished DH, we're going on to Fireborn, then maybe back to Scion... then MAYBE Rogue Trader if its out by then!

Variation is the spice of life. Keeps things interesting. Change is good. Embrace it or get the hell outta the way! ;D

Space Monkey said:

...Annihilation.

At least, if you want to continue the "themes summed up in a single word ending with -tion" idea.

See, I would argue that people like to feel smart and clever. They also like Space Marines.

So the ideal is to position the idea of playing Marines as a worthy and intellectual pursuit. Slike the Matrix - just enough cod philosophy to make people feel that watching a kung-fu movie is a noble endevour.

Hence all the talk of ancient myths and whatnot. Hey it worked for Star Wars.

300 - its not a dumb action movie - it is a work of art!

Context is very important for making the Anihalation cooler. The Gendy Tarkovsky Clone Wars cartoon was so much cooler because the man understands you don't want wall to wall action. Sometimes silence is more effective.

So anyway, a platform that Space Marines are dumb entertainment for the masses is far less memetically powerful than associating oneself with great works of literature and joseph cambells monomyth.

Even if it is dumb entertainment for the masses.

Space Monkey said:

While I've been trumpeting "Space Marines won't work in an vestigation game" for the last few pages, investigation's just a part of the bigger picture. my point is that SPace marines simlpy have less roleplay opportunities than anyone else.

Deathwatch would still be fun though, but not something I'd base a long-haul campaign through. I, for one, will still buy Deathwatch because I want the stats for everyone and everything in it.

Plus, the Deathwatch would probably be working hand-in-hand with some pretty uber inquisitors. Inquisitorial characters when they get to that power level can't help but be entertaining.

I still feel it needs to be said: Space Marines just aren't as flexible as roleplay characters. Before them, sisters, or tech-priests were probably the least flexible characters. Doesn't make Space Marines any more flexible to point out that there are other inflexible classes.

That, to me, is the joy/fun of a RPG - you can pretty much make it whatever you want. Another thing I love about this setting is that the fan-base is HUGE (and committed... ) - I have no fear of ever not finding "something" that may not be covered in "official" rules... .

AJC

A couple of points.

1) 300 was not a work of art, unless you use the broad definition of art since film is a medium of art. It was a cgi crazed mediocre film based on a less then mediocre comic that only got a greenlight because the comic was by the same guy who wrote/drew Sin City. It also isnt very much a Space Marine "squint and see" film. Maybe the opening and background of young Spartans trained for war and only the finest make it to the ranks of the Military, sure. But the Space Marines then arrive and take Leonidas and give him some implants and then you get your Space Marine theme. Nah, 300 (and its version of Sparta) is more like just a feral world facing a unstoppable cult of chaos worshippers led by a chaos mutant names Xerxes.

2) Space Marines have infinite role play potential the same as anyone else. Read Damnation Crusade and you can see that. Remember, first and foremost, Space Marines ARE HUMAN. They are genetically modified after the fact, not at birth. They are selected from the strongest, fastest, bravest and best applicants/recruits/conscripts the chapter has available. They have to deal with constant scrutiny, temptation and self discipline, they know all too well the forces of chaos are real and everyday they look in the mirror knowing that the only thing different between them and their chaos fallen brothers is a choice. Not every marine is the same, they have different experiences, degrees of faith, origins and personalities. They all have a tougher creed to live up to and follow then your normal character, but it isnt inflexible. Read some of the Space Marine novels, or better yet, the novels where the Space Marines work with "normals" such as Nightbringer (were the work with Inquisitor Barzano) or Star of Damocles. The thing that makes it hard to put a space marine in a standard campaign is not role playability, but power level. Assuming that the most generic space marine has +10 better on most characteristics (if not Unnatural x2 on some) and then 10+ AP armour that gives +20 S, he would be so far above and beyond the next character that they would all be in his shadow the entire game (which isnt unrealistic according to the fluff, but sucks for the other players).

3) A lot of the exisitng characters are not good at investigating as it is, Feral Guardsmen come to mind here.

The simplest and easiest way to do Space Marines is to make them Alternate Career ranks. Selected, Initiate, Scout, Brother and so forth. And you wouldhave to have some pretty strict requirements for gaining these ranks and they would each offer the character traits and skills and talents for a space marine.

Locque said:

Um.

No.

If you really think that, it seems to me that you've misunderstood the roleplaying game hobby.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I'd forgotten about Nightbringer - really enjoyed that one.

AJC