Luddite said:

Not quite... Good sir! I figure Inquisition has "no" use for the common drone but infact they seek these free thinkers and "radical" indeviduals which of course are the players who tend to bring their "current times" mind set in to the game...

Deathwatch marines, it must be said, would, I think, provide for a much more interesting RP experience than yer average Space Marine. The Deathwatch will obviously rely heavily on inquisitorial investigation, and will rely on chapter politics, inter-chapter politics. There's no question about it, that Space Marines are going to have less flexibility in roleplay than acolytes, but that doesn't mean that their range wil be as limited as most people think. Having said that, I'm dying to see how they'll balance space marines, since someone with t40 and power armour is almost literally invulnerable to lasrifle fire. While i would have no interest in playing a space marine, subject to change once I see more material, I'd love having some official rules to create them, as the opportunities for using them as NPC's would be fantastic.

Deathwatch marines, it must be said, would, I think, provide for a much more interesting RP experience than yer average Space Marine. The Deathwatch will obviously rely heavily on inquisitorial investigation, and will rely on chapter politics, inter-chapter politics. There's no question about it, that Space Marines are going to have less flexibility in roleplay than acolytes, but that doesn't mean that their range wil be as limited as most people think. Having said that, I'm dying to see how they'll balance space marines, since someone with t40 and power armour is almost literally invulnerable to lasrifle fire. While i would have no interest in playing a space marine, subject to change once I see more material, I'd love having some official rules to create them, as the opportunities for using them as NPC's would be fantastic.

Nuttunen said:

Indeed. Of course the Inquisition seeks out those individuals with 'something extra'.

But thats different to my point; which is, there is nothing in DH about the nature of Imperial society and culture.

We are all products of our socio-cultural environment and influences. To roleplay a character, it's rather important to have at least a basic understanding of that environment.

DH, and indeed 40k in a wider sense, doesn't provide any indication of the nature of Imperial society or culture to allow a roleplayer to form the character of an Imperial citizen .

We are, as i said, left with a lazy mix of 'modern person with with a handwave at a Medeival mindset (whatever that is)' .

Luddite said:

Well if you read between the lines (some times the actual lines)... Common folk have poor education (if any) mostly illiterate (much like me). Have deep rooted habit of Servitude. Head filled with propaganda. Monotonous repetitive jobs (promise of better tomorrow, chilling with the emperor in after life drives most on?). Fear, hate & blissful ignorance.

But yeah... Sorta hard to define/set a standard when there are actually as many cultures as there are imperial worlds...

One thing I like so much about the DeathWatch is that instead of having each player have a home world, they would have an original chapter. I think people are underestimating the number of differences that can be found between chapters, especially ones with long established histories.

A DeathWatch squad made up of former Blood Raven, White Scar, Iron Hands, and Aurora chapter space marines would play a hell of a lot differently from a squad made up of three Ultramarines and a Blood Angel.

Unless I mis-heard it, Ross Watson said in the interview on the newest D6G podcast says that you will be playing as a space marine in Deathwatch, which if I remember is in direct contrast to what he said in the podcast interveiw on The Game's The Thing. I wonder which one is right.

FFG Ross Watson said:

It was very easy to misunderstand. But you might want to check here . Where Ross comments on the The Game's The Thing Pod Cast.

Kage2020 said:

I think 'Nemesis the Warlock' covers more than adequately how Imperial citizens think. And is a funky read.

SM roleplayability will depend on the Chapter. They will all freak out the average Imperial citizen in some way. Giant uber warriors from legend standing in front of them. But a chapter that interacts more with 'normal' humans in some way, like Ultramarines, or displays more human behavioural characteristics, like Space Wolves, would freak someon out less than others. Like Dark Angels being all ultra secretive and cowl wearing, or the Raven Guard, secretive and inclined to shadows, some like the Iron Hands would have good relations with the AdMech.

Balseraph said:

I'm afraid that I'm not familiar with that, though I can guess what it would argue. I don't suppose you would be so kind as to summarise its suggestions on RPing an Imperial citizen?

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Do you mean the ABC Warriors offshoot in 2000AD?

http://www.dreamnation.fsnet.co.uk/nem.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_the_Warlock

I actually have no idea what was being referred to, hence the question.

Kage

That's exactly what I mean Luddite.

Kage, it's hard to explain, but I'll try. Also look here. www.dreamnation.fsnet.co.uk/nemsyn1.html

The Termight (Human) Empire ruled by the evil Torquemada seeks to destroy all alien life as deviant using his army

of Terminators. (Not related to the film, Nemesis appeared in 1980.) Opposing them is the Cabal, misc alien races, led

by the demonic Nemesis the Warlock. It is excellent stuff and well worth a look. Especially as it is now collected in

large volumes from the first onwards.

www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1905437110/ref=dp_olp_1

I'd also recommend Dan Abnett's Durham Red (Scalet Cantos, Vermin Stars, Empty Suns trilogy particularly). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durham_Red

And my all time fave, John Constantine in Helblazer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellblazer

A perfect inspiration for Dark Heresy.

Ahem.

Anyway....SPESH MAAHRIINES!!!

Locque said:

Why is that? What you are saying is that it is the character that limitis the ability to roleplay and not the player, at least that is how I interpet it. What I like to know is the reason why they should be less flexible? Could not the same be said about Commissars? They are indoctrinated from childhood in schools by tutors to function in a certain role. Still, they seem to come out as individuals in all the novels and comics I have read, just like Space Marines are.

Robban-O said:

Commissars are also limited to a degree by their training and occupation, sure. However a space marine has virtually no investigative capacity, since he's completely incapable of mixing with anyone who isn't a space marine- at least incognito. In the fiction, have you ever seen a space marine converse with a non-space marine? They talk *at* them, not to them. In fact, Sapce Marines seem to speak almost entirely in Epic Dialogue, even in the novels, which would, one would assume, catch them in moments of casual conversation. A Commissar is a person indoctrinated into a certain career- but traces of the person remain. A Space Marine is even more indoctrinated than that. While a cleric or commissar could be played as a cynic who abuses their office, or a 'true believer', I don't think that option's open to Space Marines. It would be possibel to see a non-bombastic, non-heroic, cynical marine, but if you could write him credibly, you're a far better roleplayer than I.

A Commissar is a person fulfilling a role. A Space Marine is a weapon.

I would recommend a quick read of the novel Angels of Darkness.

While many DA fans would take issue with the accusations and implications made by the fallen character in the novel, one thing it does realy well is diplay half a dozen or so Space Marines who are clearly heavily indoctrinated, clearly view the world differently from the way normal humans do, and yet still have distinct personalities and differences in how they handle situations. The primary protagonist, Boreas (who as it happens is not my favorite character), even displays some capacity for doubt and introspection while still remaining in the Marine mold.

Other sources present SM as on the one extreme being psychologically just like any other action/fantasy hero only bigger and better; and other extreme as so brainwashed as to be basically clones/robots. I don't find either of these credible or useful. Even if one doesn't like the novel itself, the Angels of Darkness approach shows SM that have clearly become somewhat inhuman and yet still have the capacity to be distinct. I think this approach allows room for very RP-able Marines.

As was mentioned in the 'Malleus' thread there is a big diffrence between A.S.B & S.B.E (Ante Spiky Bits & Spiky Bits Era) look at now 'heretical works like wait for it... Space Marine (Thank Mr. Watson!) and the main character from that novel Lex who also appears in the Inquisition Trilogy, and as much as I personnaly despise William King (as a writer not a person) his short story Deathwing displays not a single marine but an entire Wing of Dark Angel Terminators (the créme de la créme of the Chapter's Veterans) torn between their duty to the Emporer, the Imperium and the Chapter and their former Feral Customs and Tribal Aligences. For more contemporary visions you can look to Abnet's Tea Sipping (Complete with little finger askew action) Deatwatch Marine, he seemed a far cry from talking 'at' Gregor.

Space Marines are no more or less weapons than Sisters of Battle or Imperial Assassins or any other 'types' covered in the fiction, Table Top or Role Playing Games. As I stated in the old thread(s) back on the older, better forums (*sniff*) if Marines were not human (at least in the fact that they have desires, wants and personalities) then why or how do/did they fall to Chaos? If Adepta Soritas are included in Dark Heresy, and lets be honest from even the Rogue Trader days these Nuns with Guns were esential the Female couterpart to the all male marines, can be included in the overly investigative Dark Heresy then why not marines? A sister is simply an unenhanced Marine, they are both trained for very sigular purposes wich is to fight and defend the Imperium and the Ideal(s) of the Emporer.

It really boils down to how you see a Space Marine, like I said most seem to be stuck on the Table Top or Video Game idea of Marines just constantly slamming down in a Drop Pod and Killing stuff, and admidtigly that is the direction that GW seems to be taking most of their IP, looking at most Codices and books you'd think all Orks, Eldar, the Imperium of Man and anyone in the 40,000 did was drop down on planets and do 'Night Fights', 'Anihilations' 'Capturing and Contorling', 'Meat Grinds', and 'Bunker Assaults'. However the point of a Role Playing game is to go beyond the previous limitations, or perceived 'roles' as presented in a game thats only focus is battle. Marines can be role played in a fashion that is both true to the established source material and in a fashion that is enjoyable to the group of players. If however a group, players or game master is too limited to percieve or implanment that then that is due to the limitation of the player(s) and not the 'role'.

Locque said:

I don't think I am and they do seem to able to have a conversation. A example is the mentioned tea drinking in one of the Inquisitor books. The problem you are adressing is that marines in novels tend to talk like how their chapter are. Spacewolfs talk in a certain way so that the reader know it is about spacewolfs. The important thing is not how they talk but what they say. Especielly in series that has had a couple of novels tend to get less static. There are political infighting among the chapters and individual marines tend to question certain traditions. I can see no reason why marines would not be able to display all of humanites personality traits. They could be gentle, poetic and laugh a lot while others could be quiet, brooding and melancholic. They can have just as many personal goals as other person. Of course they are limited by their professional situation but on the other hand how much freedom does arbites and guardsmen have to achieve their personal goal while they are in service? As matter of fact, a marine that has been released from his chapter should be more inclined to explore both himself and the world around him.

I disagree with the consensus that Space Marines should limit roleplay. I do however agree that in a group taken from the DH book, space marines would be nails, without searching too hard a Marine scout (lowest level proper marine) would probably be about level 7 or 8 in the career paths. You could balance a Marine but then they wouldn't really feel right.

The Horus Heresy novels that Black Library published gave some pretty good examples of Space Marines with character. I think the killing machine idea is overused. Whilst it is clear that the Marines are genetically enhanced, indoctrinated to be loyal and follow orders and they are designed to be weapons, I like to think that they also have a personality and aren't carbon copies of one another.

The other problem is Marines and men are generally separate from one another, you'd have to create something of a plot flange to get a Marine into a group of acolytes (or have all acolytes being Marines).

Hey all. One consequence of the new forum is I ain't banned again for a while.

--

Seem to me that it would be a good idea to set a roleplaying game in the Horus Heresy era, what with the successful line of novels having appeared after the RPG was first mooted.

The way of things is in flux, mighty heros walk the earth and the Angst coming off Marines makes an anime teenager look like a sunny afternoon picnic by the lake.

Anyway - God I love Marines!

-Erik

Robban-O said:

Excellently put - I feel the same way

Investigation - well they are limited in a hive type situtation but trying to locate or track people in the wilderness - those enhanced senses, endurance, speed and agility are pretty useful. In fact the hive based characters are likely to be more of a hinderance in this type of place.............They are likely to stand out tis true but that depends on the game you are playing .........in terms of where and who you are intereacting with.

Personality - varies massively - especially given the wide variance in chapter traditions and restrictions. As noted some Marines appear more human than others...........Should a marine survive long enough he is likely to evolve (in those Chapters that allow it) a strong personaility.

roleplaying - no more difficult than playing any other alien/fantasy race - in some ways I feel the Adeptus Mechanicus should in fact be more difficult. In most Chapters - it should be easy to work out a background, he is likely to have formed friendships and rivalries, had moments of glory and shame, flet huminess or resentment towards others - especially senior members of the Chapter. Has ambition and desires to lead or is content to be a worthy member fo the bretherin. he may be able to both Apprecaite and create beauty (a number of references are made to senior Space Marines as craftsmen/artists (certainly true for Chapters sucha s the Iron hands) in a Samurai fashion or disdains such things as unworthy of his time.

the tabletop game is fantastic but it is a beginning - even then there is fluf which can suggest elemetns of the above - Dawn of War there are personalities amongst the Marines........

I had a fairly lengthy reply typesd out yesterday but for some reason the forum wasn't allowing the post.

highlights: I really didn't buy the tea drinking marine in Abnett's story. Absolutely unconvincing.

Space marines have personalities, and there are no doubt great RPing opportunities, but they never run in fear, they can't pretend to be anythuing other than a space marine. Sure Sisters of Battle are similar, but they can take the armour off and pass for a regular person. they can be incognito. Marines can't. Ever.

Having said that, i'd never play a sister because they are simply too indoctrinated, and I'm using our tech priest's infelxibility against him wherever I deem appropriate.

Marines can't be discreet, they can't blend into the shadows, lose themselves in the crowd, break stealthily into a manor. Look at all the investigative skills in DH. How many of those do you think marines will possess, and then compare it to how many they'll lose. Marines can be characters, yes, but they can't be investigators. I could see their military knowledge , and perhaps demolitions and tech skills coming into use during the game, but look at it this way: A guardsman sent to bring back a target alive initiates a firefight as part of his plan. it goes awry and the target is killed. We can credibly see the guardsman returning with the tale that the target took his own life, or fled, or was killed by his own, or was already dead. Can you honestly think of a space marine returning with a deceit? it seems unbelievably out of character.

If a Space Marine becomes seditious, or develops a mutation, how long can you realistically expect it to escape the notice of the chapter's apothecaries and chaplains? Furthermore, space marines are always space marines. Assassins can be death cultists, sophisticated dandies, bounty hunters, gang members, ex-military snipers etc. Even Tech-Priests can be tech heretics in cunning disguise. Let's not even get into the insane flexibility of Scum. Can Space Marines ever be anything but Space Marines?

I'm sure plenty out there will love them, but I'd never play one without some new material coming before me to see. A Space Marine is a Space Marine is a Space Marine, regardless of his origins, he'll die for the emperor,despises heresy, wears Power Armour (or better), He's as indoctrinated as any tech-priest, cleric, or Adepta Sororitas, and then some, with less flexibility. It isn't just that a space marine can't investigate- he ruins the investigation of any cell he accompanies, limiting his company to other marines or troopers in a non-investigative capacity. I'm sure there are exceptions but they'd be just that- exceptions.

Da Boss said:

Well done sir.

You've hit the nail firmly on the head there.

Remember that most of the 'fluff' we're dealing with been generated to support a wargame - an inherently shallow narrative medium.

The biggest omission from DH (for me) was a dearth of more in-depth information on anything that is important for roleplaying, developed from that starting point.

So when we debate the space marine personality, although they have featured in many novels, remember that the majority of their background was generated to serve the tabletop, where concerns for personality are not paramount.

For a roleplaying experience i think they really can be developed beyond the SPESH MAAHRINE cardboard cutout....

As for wether they CAN be roleplayed, and wether they will fit in a DH group?

Well...back in the mists of time i played in a Runequest group that included as PCs, 3 humans, a dwarf, a cave troll and a duck. It worked.

I GMed a game set on Discworld with a PC that was a drop-leaf table (yes and item of furniture) made of sapient pearwood.

From a roleplaying perspective, any character will fit into any setting. As to wether that works from the game perspective...well thats down to the imagination and capacity of the GM and players...

YESSSS!!!! PURGE!!! BURNZZ!!! KLENEXEZZZ!!!

WAAAAUUUUGGHHH!!!

Sorry. Had to get that out. Anyway, my group was a little leary about playing DH after our stint with WHFRP. They found that the combat system was a little too deadly for their tastes. So when I brought out the Shiny GRIMDARK, they balked a little... Until one of my fellow TT players overheard my insane mumblings about being 8' tall and bulletproof. Then he shouted out litanies of triumph and prayers of thanks to de Emprah. They peeked out from behind my sofa nd lazyboy and saw the Glory of The Imperium in its fullest. So to get them into the game I ran them using Patriot's rules for Spesss Muhreenss. Only one asked to play an Angry Marine. Thank the Emperor no one wanted to Play a Classy marine. The long of it is that after I devised a "new" chapter for them run by a radical Inquisitor for his own personal enjoyment, they slowly died off, due to one going chaos and another pulling dumb stuff. They began to roll up regular PCs and soon the game was in earnest. Before it was over they had disbanded the Chapter and Only one SM remains. He is proficient rper and I think will make an excellent addition to the Inquisitorial ranks. As for how does he do investigations? Simple. Out in the open while his fellows run in the shadows. Distraction makes for a great game. My next campaign will be with his PC as the Inquisitor and the others being his Retinue, tracking a Heretek.