If the Awesome Marines do really, really well, Maybe there will be enough money to look at orks.

If not, we lay off half the staff and do some more Marines.

In a period of economic recession, I'm sure that the staff are just loving that suggestion, Dezmond. On the bright side, "True-scale Marines" look cool...

Kage

+++++In a period of economic recession, I'm sure that the staff are just loving that suggestion+++++

Now, more than ever, is no time to be pissing around with anything that doesn't have a big ass marine hitting something on the cover.

+++++"True-scale Marines" look cool...+++++

Don't they though. As it happens, no matter how cool they are I doubt we will see official GW true-scale marines until if/when the company is in serious trouble, because it would instantly obsolete all of people old armies and mean pulling and retooling their best selling lines for not enough good reason, but christ all mighty would it not be awsome.

Now, maybe a small range of roleplaying related 'Epic Heros of the Marines' minis...

Nah. Not even.

Be awsome though. Absolutely awsome.

Dezmond said:

Thing is, even with your Marine-addled mind (clearly, they need to put a warning label on either the Space Marine models themselves, or the glue used to assemble them), you must appreciate that even die-hard Marine players get bored of fighting nothing but Marines.

Certainly, the rest of us find it endlessly tiresome (I, personally, have never collected a Space Marine army, and my half-hearted attempt at a Chaos Marine army still totals 11 assembled models, even after 5 years of owning parts of it... yet in that time, I've come to own two seperate Eldar armies - the current one totalling some five thousand points - plus an Eldar fleet for BFG, an Eldar army for Epic, and the Eldar Ranger model from the Inquisitor range).

But then, I'm not entirely sure you're not a computer program designed to promote Space Marines above (and to the exclusion and detriment of) everything else...

Well, when Marines do well the company does well, and there are free resouces to start cool stuff like Fanatic/SG and Black Industries, but when Marines do badly the other stuff is what gets cut first, so strong Marines are really good for everyone.

Trickledown economics for the hobbyist...

Reading through this thread it seems to me that people aren't quite understand what a space marine is exactly and thier relationship with the inquisition.

A space marine is a brainwashed killing machine. They do not function in social society. To the point where they will self destruct without their rigid codes and go nuts. Space Marines are trained to not think about what they could actually do. Imagine yourself being an 8 foot tall killing machine. You step out on the street on your average hive world and start killing people. No one can really stop you, you're fairly indestructable and smart enough to avoid any heavy ordanance that'll be heading toward you. A space marine is controled to the greatest extent possible to prevent that. Most marines who fall to chaos afer the heresy have fallenbecause they did realize tat they could anything and no one except other space marines could really stop them. Now if you think you can roleplay this barely contained psychotic killer, then go ahead. But don't abuse the class by playing him as a happy go lucky all around nice guy. Because space marines aren't.

Now the inquisition and space marines. Outside of the Grey Knights and the Death Watch, Space marines do not fall under inquisitorial authority. An Inquisitor cannt order a space marine chapter to do anything. He can request, but not order. Space Marines answer to the Emperor (eg the High Lords of Terra) alone. This doesn't mean that they are immune to accusations of heresy, an inquisitor can, with ample proof, declare a marine excomunicate. With ample proof. An inquisitor may be able to blow the head off a planetary govenor for being mildly miffed at his tone, but you go after a space marine without proof and the chapter will probably blow great big holes through your body. And this still doesn't mean that an inquisitor has the authority to order anything from a space marine. Some chapters (space wolves) get a giggle out of telling Inquisitors to shove it. Now most chapters will accpet a request from an inquisitor, but a space marine (remembering he is a barely contained psycopath) dislikes having his pride slighted. EG, being stuck with a group of snot nosed acolytes. The space marine may accept the situation, but that inquisitor is not getting help from his chapter ever again. Nor would most inquisitors be stupid enough to leave a space marine with some acolytes. A space marine will always be part of his personal retinue. They are too powerful a resource to squaner on events not worth the inquisitor's time.

Now lets talk about actual inquisitorial based space marines. Grey Knights. A grey knight isn't sent unless a world is ending. Really, a world must be under threat of demonic based destruction to ever justify a grey knight. Read through the fluff, Grey Knight never appear unless at least a world is about to end. Next we have Deathwatch. Deathwatch are the guys you send in to kill everything once you discover the threat. They don't discover the threat, they simply kill it. Deathwatch kill teams are also very very very very very very very rare (Notice the emphasis) so your acolytes will almost never be in a poition to call them.

Now people have to reckognize a commen theme here. Space marines kill things. Its what they do. If a space marine is doing anything it will be killing things. The commen acolyte would probably be benieth his notice. You have to be pretty bloody spectacular to have a marine treat you as an equal (A high ranking officer, an inquisitor, a member of the navigator failies). Now this isn't to say space marines aren't sneaky. They are very sneaky. A space marine could loose himself in a hive city and never be found. But they are bad at investigations. Because they don't. Space marines kill things, Everything they do is a lead up to them killing things. A space marine could probably break into a persons house and steal sensitive data. He won't though. Because it won't occure to him. Space marines are killers. Also most space marines are pretty **** bland. Sure you got space wolves, but once you know them then they are fairly one dimensional too. Drink, fight, eat, boast, repeat. Course the space marines with extra flair are probably the ones sent of to join an inquisitor's retinue, so they will have a bit of something out of the chapter norm.

Now if you can keep all this in mind then sure, go ahead and play a space marine. Just please don't abuse the guys unless you're doing it willfully and RPing in some alternate universe where space marines are different.

Also I have an interesting quote to keep in mind from a review I read of Dark heresy. "DH is not the WH40K Roleplaying game, its a roleplaying game set in WH40K"

Stratigo said:

While the "controlled psychopath" model of the Space Marine is the one that I prefer, there are examples of Marines being at home in social situations, whether that be Cynewolf from the Eisenhorn books or one of the other examples that I'm sure that someone can remember or find. Many people seem to be rather fond of the "noble knight" approach and, indeed, the Horus Heresy novels have been lauded for their humanisation of the Marines.

(Please note: The "controlled psychopath" and "noble knight" things are just labels to reference certain approaches to the Marines. They are not meant to be taken literally!)

Stratigo said:

Some of the quotes that I find most inspiring, or which otherwise seem to nail the interpretation of Marines, come from the film Prophecy (as well as one or two from Terminator ). I always end up posting them so you're going to have to indulge me if you've seen me post them before!

That's whta Marines are to me. I don't think that this means that they cannot be RP'd, just that if one wants to attempt it then one must also accept the parameters of that role.

Stratigo said:

To be fair, practically anyone could loose themselves in a hive city.

Stratigo said:

That's pretty much clear to anyone that has opened the Dark Heresy book.

Kage

"While the "controlled psychopath" model of the Space Marine is the one that I prefer, there are examples of Marines being at home in social situations, whether that be Cynewolf from the Eisenhorn books or one of the other examples that I'm sure that someone can remember or find. Many people seem to be rather fond of the "noble knight" approach and, indeed, the Horus Heresy novels have been lauded for their humanisation of the Marines. (Please note: The "controlled psychopath" and "noble knight" things are just labels to reference certain approaches to the Marines. They are not meant to be taken literally!)"

Personally I think both approaches are valid but depend on the Chapter - all of which are vastly different and treat their Bretherin very differently. Some are little more than controlled killers others much more............some are perhaps even "noble Knights" or as close as you can get in the Imperium, but that still means they will act against enemies without mercy, be savage and ruthless in warfare beyond the capaicty of "normal" humans.

Pretty much as it is desribed on p153 of Rogue Trader

I have no problem with the Heresy novels - most of them I have enjoyed..............

I sort of agree with some of what Stratigo says except I see more in a Space Marine - especailly one who has lived for centuries..............I still feel that people restrict themselves by saying they could never have a Space marine character in a game...............the game / background would need to make sense but it is in my opionion possible

Da Boss said:

Is this not the "exception of an exception to an exception" approach? Hey, I'm fine with it if you like it, but it seems to be something that is used quite a bit in 40k discussions. (Although not in Dark Heresy when dealing with government. ) In application to Marines, though, there are certainly some base commonalities to them, and if you wish to ascribe the "noble knight" situation it is, for me, something that must be done realising the violent substrate.

Da Boss said:

Hey, don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the first one or two but then become disenchanted when it looked like the series was going to be milked, or a literary equivalent of "jumping the shark." And I also rather liked Mechanicum , and that despite the predictability of the "secrets" it revealed.

Da Boss said:

And, as above, I agree. But Marines, like Eldar, would require more detailed informaton to allow them to be played with any degree of facility.

Kage

Space Marines can be roleplayed. They are even fun to roleplay. But they have certain characteristics that limit what they can be. Every space marine is courageous, intellegent, strong, fast, tough, and a zealot. They aren't Imperial Creed Zealots, but they are zealots. They follow the traditions of their chapter to the death, rarely breaking faith. This keeps them controlled, able to function. Even when a space marine falls he tends toward zealotry, though for Chaos instead. I'll be honest some of the things that the Fallen (Dark Angels. And a lot of them aren't even full space marines) Have done chill me more then many atrocities of chaos marines.

Space marines aren't either barely controlled psychotics or noble knights, they are both. A space Marine will stand between man and the worst monsters in existence, sacrificing himself willingly every time so that mankind can live. But to do that he is conditioned to be a killer, and programmed to be sad knight. A space marine who isn't a noble knight will generally start to ask "What am I sacrficing myself for? These mere mortal men are beneath me. " and at that point its a downward spiral to "I can do whatever I want, men cannot stop me."

Space marines do not function in social life. They can act socially yes, but remove them from their strict training program and monastic order and a marine will self destruct. He could go nuts and figure no one can stop him, or he might just spiral into a deep depression, feeling as if what he was created to die for was never worth his death in the first place. But they can hold a conversation fine and they do have their motivations. Glory, brotherhood, etc.

Why settle for Kurt Russel in Soldier when you can have Hector or Achilles. The Greek Hero is just so much more useful.

Johnny Five or Jean-Claude van Dam in Universal Soldier have one story - in a world of war, kurt russel/a robot/a genetically enhanced belgian will lern what it means to be human.

GW books are formulaic but please ponder the hell you would be unleashing on the world as a stream of even more identical books with even less characterisation roll off the presses. Suggestions GW stop writing books about Marines will be laughed at.

No, since any charater who comes in to contact with a narrative for long enough is going to develope personality anyway (did we note the Governator in T2 learning what it is to be human) if we want to take out the cool toys and play with them instead of them being kept in the boxes like a die-cast car - alone and unloved - quit being difficult and get with the program.

For protragonist PCs rather than scenery, we need goals, motivations, strong personalities and conflicts. What these goals etc. are is open for debate. That they must exist is not.

Stratigo said:

I am just currious have you read eithier Space Marine or Harlequin & Chaos Childe by Ian Watson? He's pretty much nailed what I think a Marine in the 40,000 setting is, he's seemed to protray thier alien qualities while still understanding that they are still at their core fundalmentally human. I think the problem is not one of a Marine being 'conditioned' or 'progromed' that is the easy, cop out most default to to rationalise their personal desire for the Terminator, Psycho Killing Machines. Assassins, Soritas, Psykers, Arbitors all are conditioned and put through rigid progroms. SOme even undergo the same techniques of psychotheropy that a Marine does. However I've never heard the compliants that on the basis of 'persona' or creed or conditioning these types cannot be played.

I think it really stems from the same issues that many have with types of characters like Psykers, who have to walk the fine line between trying to represent something that will be true to the setting while still maintaing balance and promoting a gaming experience that will be fun for everyone. For every comment I read where someone explains why it would never work becasue all they do is fight and they can't be social all I think is WTF is up with all the Tech Priests? They DON'T even want to be human, and statistically have no Fel advances at all thus are completely antisocial.

They are geared (pun intended), as much thematically as a concept and mechcanically as per the rules, towards becoming more and more monstrous in their flight from the 'weakness of the flesh' and as such would seem to make for incredaibly poos infiltraitors, and over time will tend to be as much mono tasked, on the surface, as the hypothetical Marine. Fix, things, study / reasearch, fight. However I am guessing this is not the case for many who have sucessfully and enjoyably, no doubt, incorperated Ad Mech adhereents into their games.

My point is if you want to see something, you will. Many eithier from 'winny rage' born of TT gaming or becasue they feel it would be too unbalancing, have a predisposition to automatically view Marines and RPG as anthema or at the least only doable under 'special cicumstances' or in 'Marines Games.' Now don't get me wrong I am not, be any means advocating an Arstates in every Cell or even suggesting it should be a standard non-special (elite advance) type of charcater choice. ALl I am saying is that it is not only posible but very possible in light of the actual established setting of 40,000 despite how much it may clash with our own personaly views or biases.

Indeed. This is what I was referring to when I mentioned that the "every Chapter is different" approach is moderated by the fact—idea, rather— that they all share a large number of commonalities. The context, if you will.

That's a given. The thing about these labels is that they are useful means of understanding a focus, but the truth or the interpretation generally lies in between. Consider, for example, the categories of "Adeptus Me-can-icus" and the "Adeptus Me-can't-icus". These essentially, and respectively, determine whether the Adeptus Mechanicus understands the technology that they cherish or whether they have no real understanding. Now, while I would firmly put myself in the camp of the "Adeptus Me-can-icus" I have elements of the other approach in there. For example, while knowledge of technology is not inherently restricted to the upper hierarchy of the Cult Mechanicus the lowest Tech-Priests do learn through rote and do not necessarily understand the technology that they minister to.

In short? It's a focus thing. Thus for Marines the focus remains "controlled psychopaths" rather than the other option, but that doesn't mean that elements of that other do not find themselves into the interpretation.

Yet we have examples from the background where they do . If you select to believe otherwise, which is entirely within the bounds of personal interpretation, that's fine. But it is there...

For you, Dezmond. For you.

I'll take Kurt Russel's performance over Brad Pitt's any day of the week, at least as it pertains to the Marines. That is my choice ; my focus. Then again, Marines aren't really that central to my interpretation of the 40k universe. They would show up, even as PCs, but the entire universe would not revolve around them making an appearance.

Hand holding!

Good point, though, about the Tech Priest.

Kage

+++++The Greek Hero is just so much more useful.

For you, Dezmond. For you.+++++

No, but seriously how do you expect to fill the endless novels, games and everything about Marines that GW are going to produce with no personality.

Tell me a story about a Kurt Russel Marine. Not about someone affected by the Marine, but the Marine himself.

I think the purpose of my posts was sort of misunderstood. I am in no way claiming space marines cannot be roleplayed. I'd love to RP a space marine myself. I am a massive Marine fanboy. They are the one 40k army that I have played continuously.

Personally I don't think they'd fit in what DH represents. They are just too powerful, and most people will want to play them and it will honestly take away from other classes. And they would never realistically be stuck long term with a group of acolytes.

And they are undeniabely psychoindoctrinated utilizing various methods, from religious fanaticism to outright brainwashing. They are in no way special in that. A sister is probably even more indoctrinated then a marine. Sisters are absolutely completely frothing at the mouth religious zealots. They are still human though and take tem out of power armor they don't go around snapping peole in half anyways.

But Space marines don't fit well in a social setting. You're average citizen will drop to his knbees and worship him or at the very least be stunned speechless in awe. And surrounded by humans, and especiallyhumanity's vices a marine could either start to inculge in the vices f he can have his image of humanity changed from something pristine and glorious to something battered and tarnished, something not worth saving. This isn't an immediate thing. They don't saunter down the street and suddenly go nuts. But a few years without the constraints of the chapter and surrounded by normal humans, it'll wear a space marine down.

Stratigo said:

And, I think, that this is the common perception. Or maybe misconception. When is something "impossible" for RAW and when is it possible for "40k RPG?" When are we talking about RP'ing a Marine and when are we talking about doing that in the specific (or parochial) focus of Dark Heresy ?

As to the form of indoctrination? Well, that seems to be another idiosyncracy...

Kage