What kind of bolters do they use, can they bench a Sister of Battle, are they human, abhuman, something more than human, prick them do they not bleed, wrong them will they not revenge, are they all psychotic, mindless killing drones, are they not l337!1 w0071!!, can they be roleplayed? Can a thousand Dark Eldar with a thousand Splinter Rifles and a Thousand Years wound one?

Here is the place for all things Space Marine!!! No Dark Hersy Forum would be complete without it.

About **** time.

And Ill say this again.

IG and DE can kill a SM its just unlikely.

Fix it Ross.

So why are there no rulles for playing SM in DH?

SPESS MEHREENS!!11!

FOR TEH EMPRAH!!!121!!

Because that would make Deathwatch much less interesting now, wouldn`t it?

Nile said:

Because they are too powerful. Either everyone would want to play one, or whoever was the Space Marine in the group would become the hero. Plus, I can imagine that players wanting to play SM characters would start demanding the power armour and weapons - resulting in powergaming.

So um... How do you even (role)play a über brainwashed (at least 90 decrees celsius) gene-manipulated 3 meters tall heap of ugly muscle, wielding the most powerful arms and armor known to mankind? Land in a drop-pod, shoot the crap out of stuff, lift cultists up from their hair and spit their faces off...? Then prance around saying prayers and get home in time for tea & mind clensing.

Nile said:

There is ThePatriot's co-authored endevour, I think it may be at Unearthed Apocrapha or you can also nab it here . They are 'un-offical' but rules none-the-less.

Wilfred Owen said:

Yeah because that's not an issue with say... *looks around for Lynata* Sisters of Battle.

Wu Ming said:

I so hope you have Dodge +20

Wilfred Owen said:

Why does everyone automatically assume that just because they might be available, everyone wants to play a Space Marine? Or that even if they do want to play a Space Marine, they're going to go around power-gaming?

Also, why are they any less RP-worthy than, say, a psyker? Or a zealot priest? Or an Inquisitor?

Seems to me that one of the iconic images of the 40k universe, one that GW have gone to the ends of the Earth to make more human are getting somewhat of a bad press.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Kage2020, I'm not saying that they are any less roleplay worthy than any other career - and if I implied that in an earlier post, than I was in error. But the fact remains that Space Marines are simply too imbalaced compared to the careers presented in DH. I do not deny that they are the most iconic element of the 40k universe - certainly, that is what the sales figures say - but SMs simply cannot be included, in my opinion , with what we have at the moment . Of course, more mature player groups could accommodate a SM player character easily; however, not every group is like that. I guess, that's why DH never included SMs.

Now that was a post that was most tempered, especially given how one could see my own comments as critical of your original post. I just love it when the forumites work as we should!

Wilfred Owen said:

I don't think that you did. However, this thread was generated in angst by Wu Ming because he was peeved that people were organically developing his thread on the recent podcast. Thus I believe it was my picking up on some of the general "sense" of posts that are posted on this matter. My bad for that, so my apologies.

Wilfred Owen said:

Are you sure? Although I'm (seriously) not a fan of ThePatriot's efforts at Space Marines, s/he presents an approach to Space Marines that basically "balances them out" at about - what? - level 5?

So, why do you feel that they are so un-balanced with regards to the Dark Heresy ? Obviously if one goes purely with the focus of the game ("Cassocks in Space" investigative horror) then it isn't going to work, but if one is to argue that Dark Heresy is 40k RPG, or at least the "Tier 1" basis of it? Well, that might be a more palatable question...

Wilfred Owen said:

Forgive me for jumping on this, but are you suggesting tthat Dark Heresy was designed for immature players?

Kage

Kage2020 said:

1) Because they were way too much beloved by the kind of people who wanted to play the dragon in D&D? In all seriousness, I am sure there are a lot of people who would do a fine job with them, when contained in the appropriate game and setting / power level for them (as already eloquently articulated by others in this thread).

2) As far as RP-worthy, well that's in the eye of the beholder. I have 0 interest in playing one. The wiggle room I would have to work with to develop backstory and personality would not allow me to develop the kind of character I like to play. But I feel the same way about Sororitas. That doesn't mean either one shouldn't be developed as a playable character in a game appropriate to their power level, just that I personally don't want to play one.

Some of my fellow players in the group where I play will be waiting anxiously for years to see Deathwatch come out. I only hope when it does, there will be options to play something else of comparable power level that is not a marine, because I would be bored playing one. Lots of other people wouldn't.

Well I think playing space marines would be fun but I also think that a space marine player would get bored in an Acolyte group. In one of mine at least.


My quests are investigation based. No matter how hard he tries, sending a space marine in an investigation team (say in a suspected noble social circle or a bar in the slums or whatever like that) is aquin to sending a mad elephant inside a porcelain shop, with fireworks in it's ass.
The big guy is BIG, he's packing HUMONGOUS weapons and he's got easely recognisable modifications that mark him as on of the Astartes.

So then what,

The group goes of saying: ''Hey Lucretius, call you when we find them'' then proceed to finding the bad guys wich is whenn they finaly (after hours of play) call him in ''Yeah so we're here and so are they, do your thing ''.

Alright, ti makes for awesome ''space marine to the rescue FOR THE EMPRAAAA'' scenes but the space marine still had nothing to do for hours.


an interesting twist would be an All space marine group with one normal guy who is able to go and do sneaky stuff to ''prepare the way for the big guys'' wich would, ironicaly, make him the ONE unreplaceable character in the group.


Sorry for my spelling but i'm french

Also to the first guy who posted: nice shakespear reference.

I lack the code saavy of Kage2020 so I am not even going to attempt to deal with the currently wonky quote system. A few quick points though:

I was less peevish at the threadjacking, which is to be expected in any forum and I think moreso in gaming forums were topics (like games) can ofetne quickly and unexpectedly veer off into uncharted and planned for terriotory (often to the enjoyment of all envoled.) But more to the tiresome (to me) and oft repeated 'Space Marine' um 'discourse' (?). Personally I am of the opinion that the concept that a majority of people have reagarding marines is completely incorrect. They are in my view no diffrent than a Psyker, Minostorium, Minotorium, Inquisition, Assassitorium, Mecnanicus or Soritas indoctronated individual all undergo various psycological and sometimes physical progroms intended to produce a very specif outcome as determined by the goals, views, and belifes / doctrines of a given orginisation.

Thi sis not to say that they are all the same in the level or degree of agumentiona and manipulatio applied but that they all basically set out to take a normal human (or psyker in the case of the Scolastic Psykana) and put them through the a preordainend process of indoctrnation and training and whatnot with the outcome being the idealised version of a person as outlined my the said orginisation.

However there seems to be a great deal of TT bagae I feel brough to the RPG table when it comes to Marines, and I really don't see why considering how often they can (and do loose) but that's besides the point. I think, maybe in part because they are so popular they get alot of backlash from those who want to be more 'original' or don't want to be a 'fanboi' ect. Marines seem to be the 'Sell Outs' of the Warhammer 40,000 univers to alot of fans as if they were that nice underground punk group you and mates 'discovered' at some seedy pub way back when and now they're on MTV and all the little kiddies think they're all the rave, and now you can't stand the bastards.

THAT's what my angst is about. That and the kind of assured and inevetable nature of the same basic 'revelations' and POVs about Marines (in specif to DH) occuring over and over through out the ages. That said I agree wit Kage202 regarding the 'Bad Press' angle and with aethel regarding Soritas and other DH 'character' types being no more or less Role Playable than another, although I think people cannot see, choose not to or just outright disagre on this point.

To me all of the Character options as presented by the the RAW for DH are esentially tropes with all the same baggae tying the hands of the player, however noone seems to have a problem with there Void Born or Mind Cleansed Psyker being just like the 100,000,000 other Psykers of the same background, same basic Statistical spreads same basic abilites ect. That is the true fruit of my 'angst' regarding this topic. That said, I still find myself (occasionally) reading the Space Marine or Las Vs. SP weapons or Human vs. Marine Bolter threads even though I am pretty sure I've read it all before (twice) in its varied incarnations.

SlimeTheGreat said:

Personally I perfer Ben Jonson to William Shakespear, but It seemed an apropriate addition.

Indeed. This was really only the point that I was trying to make. I have played with people whom I feel hardly have the ability to RP a real human being...

And now that is an argument I can understand. It's an argument based upon personal interpretation, rather than suggesting that it is not possible for anyone.

Fair enough. Way to go for breaking the gaming mould!

All I do is go into the HTML code and then type the following: (blockquote)(b)Wu Ming said:(/b)(br /)(br /)some quoted text(/blockquote). It all works after that, but of course you have to replace the () with <>.

Which was indeed my point. Even a "normal human" in the 40k universe is going to be sufficiently different from post peoples' interpretations of reality that they're going to be very difficult to play.

On my behalf, thank you for taking the time to articulate what I described as 'angst.' Much appreciated.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

This is such a depressingly obvious point to me, but is completely missed by DH.

The people of the 40k 'verse are simply going to be fundamentally different from us today.

Physically, morally, psychologically...and yet DH basically says, 'ok, they're just like you...um...except Medieval...in space. Got it? Good. Now go kill stuff...'

Physically?

Well the average Imperial citizen sure isn't going to look European. Given that High gothic was a fusion of Pacific languages and English, i'm thinking a wierd mix of Asian, and White. Sort of coffee-skinned Polynesian looking...as a baseline. Add in 1,000,000 differnet worlds and the endless environmentally inspired genetic mutation that will inspire...who knows?

Morally?

Its clear the average Imperial citizen has a fundamentally different moral compass...yet DH gives us NOTHING on that absolutely vital part of roleplaying a character in the Imperium. I'm fond of the idea of an Imperial baseline, against which lots of local variations might be measured...but for sure that baseline isn't going to be much like modern Western liberal democratic values...

Psychologically?

Who knows? I mean look at the environment the average Imperial citizen lives in!! Surely we should be roleplay people like Winston Smith? Or Lenina and Bernard? I can't see many Imperial citizens being phycologically familiar to us today...yet, again, DH gives us nothing to work on in forming a 40k personality to roleplay ...

Unless of course in 38,000 years of development of the like seen in the 40k background, Imperial citizens are essentially just the same as us...which i find incredibly unlikely....just look at the physical, moral and psychological changes between you and your grandparents...how different are they?

What about between a European and an African person? Differences?

What about between us and the ancient Greeks or Romans? Do we share the same morality as the Aztecs?

Hey!! I derailed a SPESH MAAHRINE thread away from the marines! Do i win a prize?

Nile said:

Because You can't Role play a Space MArine. You can only play it. The only thing he would do is to kill, kill, kill then kill again and kill and survive to all the interestings characters who would have brought life to the game. Isn't it? the goal is to play a ''normal'' human that can die in a sigle shot of a pistol. Because I think The goal of dark heresy is to play in a dark grimm atmosphere. WTF A space marine would do our of his chapter, working with vile acolytes? There is also the dark watch thing. wouldn't it be less interesting if there were space marine everywhere.

''No need the Inquisiton everyone! we got space meeriiinneees!''

Victus said:

I fundamentally disagree.

Victus said:

It's been stated before, but, theoretically, a role-player can indeed play a Space marine. You may not be able to or have the desire to, but they are just as roleplayable as anything else, especially in 40k. Lets face it, all the Arbiters are is hard-asses who stay in their little fortresses worshiping some law books until it's time to put on the old riot gear and bust some heads for the Emprah. Not very roleplayable? How about the GunNuns who, when not repenting or praying are purging everything in sight? What about the Tech-Priest who really just wants to be a cogitator and has the emotional depth of one (and right brain to boot)? What about Space Ninjas who do nothing but pine away for the next time they get to spray-paint themselves black and go on a kill-spree for someone with their cloths literally painted on?

Let's face it, nothing in 40k has all that much depth. Most all things in 40k's cannon have one depth and one depth only, and that's the killing everything in site while looking cool depth. It's up to the players, GM, and, well, DH line to actually supply some depth to these ideas we have been handed. Space Marines are no different.

I can actually see a lot of potential in roleplaying Space Marines. Heck, I would love to run a SM campaign exploring the psychology of the Marine vs who they once were. Possibly a split game with sessions jumping back and forth from the characters as their feral warrior selves eking out an existence on what ever world they came from to the characters as Space Marines and the endless battle that is their life. Play it off as the SM's remembering hazy snippets of their former lives now and again 9for some plotish reason) and see which wins out through rp, the character as he was or his conditioning. Something like that. Lot of potential.

Though, i would agree, if your running an out of the box DH game 9the +i+ and all0 then they wouldn't fit but they are far and away not unroleplayable. They might not be your cup of tea, but a good roleplayer can roleplay just about anything and a good GM can find a way to bring out the human element in any story.

Kage2020 said:

Iconic or not, I find Space Marines rather overused (but that might just be me being bitter being the only non-space marine TT player I've ever met ). 40k material that doesn't involve crazy emphasis on space marines is a welcome change.

Personal feelings aside (as aside they can come in a post that, obviously, express personal opinions), there are several issues with playable space marines.

First, they don't scale well. If a game starts out with the players being relative grunts (as the Dark Heresy setting is inclined to do), you're pretty much out of luck. People don't become space marines when they are cool enough. You're either chosen early, or you're not chosen at all. That's it. It's not something you "advance" into.

Secondly, they don't really play well with others if you want to stay remotely close to lore. They don't walk around on planets with their buddies and have a chat with the locals, poke their noses in some potential heresy and generally go about their business. They hang out in monestaries practicing the best way to kill stuff, while waiting to be sent out to kill said stuff. So while a group of space marines might be fine, a mixed group makes little sense.

Thirdly, it's simply not in the scope of Dark Heresy, and I'm glad they were left out. If Rifts has taught us anything, it's that including both vagabonds and glitter boys is inherrently flawed. Of course, there's two sides to this. On one hand, Space Marines are giant, mindless (yet inhumanly intelligent), bio-engineered behemoths of destruction. The finest fighting force the Imperium has ever known. One marine is worth hundreds of regular troops. OBVIOUSLY outside the scope of Dark Heresy. On the other hand, the TT game doesn't really display them as that much more powerful than everyone else, in which case you could just roll reasonably well on your feral world guardsman, stuff him in a suit of power armour (without the stupid civilian power supply) and voila! Insta-space marine well within the scope of Dark Heresy.

So, either totally impossible or totally doable.

On a final note, I disagree that you can't roleplay a space marine. Lore seems pretty conflicting on this, and I'd have no issue with it. In fact, from a role-play perspective it could be interesting.

The only way I would let my players play a marine is as a short burst-high voilence mission where everyone plays a member of a death watch kill team. I'd make their characters before hand, they'd complete the mission but ultimately they would all die.

That way i could throw them up against something really big and nasty with out (a) killing of all their characters they have worked so hard on developing and (b) not have a Total Party Kill on turn 1

Here's the gag: As we all know, Marines in the TT game have to be balanced for game play. Marines in WH40K fiction and flavor text are freakin' death machines . The problem comes when you have to balance the flavor -something that tends to have more impact, at least in the minds of players of RPGs than other games- against a ruleset that already provides a soldier-y role: the Guardsman. Ideally, I'd like a book with the DH rules for Marines and the kinds of threats that they face. It's up to GMs to allow/disallow various rules, and the big ol' tag of "You may use this book at your GM's discresion." goes a long way towards that.

A Marine supplement could find a great deal of use, especially considering that it could be it's own book, akin to a smaller version of DH, providing the different 'jobs' Marines do (Infantry, Scout, Dev/H. Weapons, Chaplain, Assault, Tech Marine, Librarian, etc.). This also opens the door for Chaos Marines as a viable enemy in a "pure" SM campaign.

Although I personally wouldn't mix Marines in a group of DH Acolytes on a long term basis ( maybe as a short-term plot device... maybe ), I would strongly consider a scenario where the Marines get called in due to whatever the Acolytes uncover. Afterwords, the players take over the Marines for the next section, as the Acolytes either leave the planet, hide or otherwise go inactive for the duration.