Our RtL campaign is progressing nicely. I opted for Ascension and the Spider Queen. My upgrades include silver beasts, silver eldritch, 1 trap treachery, 1 spawn treachery, Focused, Into My Parlour, and Slaggaroth. The heroes are a couple of turns out from their rumor (Hunting the Wyrm, which gives a hero Ironskin). I can't possibly stop them from succeeding at the rumour, because it doesn't have a failure condition like some of them do, but I can make it as painful as possible. I'll get enough XP and time for a single upgrade, and I've got a few options.

1) Upgrade beasts to Gold. This will do very little in the actual rumor, but Slaggaroth is nearby, and he'll get at least one chance to attack first. I really, really, really don't like beasts (mostly due to spiders being so unwieldy), but they're the best on the overland map and Slaggaroth comes with a slew of them. The heroes are well-equipped, so I don't think a TPK is a possibility. If it were I'd be all over the attack, since it would delay them a few weeks. But I'll probably get some XP and put some poison out.

2) Upgrade eldritch to Gold. This'll beef up the ice wyrms in the rumor quite a lot, along with every eldritch creature in a lieutenant's retinue or dungeon level. It can't stop them from killing the wyrm, but would get me more XP along the way. It would still be somewhat useful in lieutenant encounters, as it would let me pull in Dark Priests and Shades. Shades will be especially nice in lieutenant encounters, as Ghost + Shadowcloak makes them immune to the two melee characters in the party. Soar would normally do that, but the group's wizard gets up to +5 range, so Soar isn't as useful at protecting things from him. Then again, that's 9 treachery to play those, and I'm only getting 3 per turn thanks to a Cautious hero. Couple it with needing 6 to play Dark Charm and I'll never actually play those spawns unless I've gotten event treachery first.

3) Buy a point of event treachery. For dungeons this would become Crushing Blow. For lieutenant encounters (except for Merrick) it would become Danger and a Rage or a Charge. Merrick's free 15 threat would mean it could be a Crushing Blow in his encounters as well. Though for at least a little while it would be useful as a Crushing Blow all the time, since they're still got some nice copper cursed gear I'd love to destroy.

I'm leaning towards 2 or 3 right now, but might not actually have enough XP for upgrading Eldritch. I'm somewhere around 20 right now, with one level left of their dungeon. So I think I've got to kill at least 2 heroes or that's not even an option.

Ok, I'm done thinking out loud. Thanks for listening.

I would upgrade the Eldritch. Sorcerers and even Skeletons can become really nasty. As for event treachery, I'd always add Poltergeist because it's my favourite card. I would never ever use Crushing Blow, I think it's very strong, but it makes the game less fun for the heroes by a large margin.

nachti said:

You know that Poltergeist has been removed from use in RtL campaigns by the latest FAQ, right?

No, I didn't know that, sorry. I haven't played RtL for a while because we are trying out the dungeons of the Quest Compendium at the moment. Why has it been removed? I know it's powerful, but it's not gamebreaking (unless you have boulders).

Back to topic: Eldritch pewpewpew!

I would never ever use Crushing Blow, I think it's very strong, but it makes the game less fun for the heroes by a large margin.

That's ok, the cursed items being better than their silver (and some gold) equivalents make the game less fun for me.

Quick (somewhat related) question for anyone with Tomb of Ice handy. Can you please tell me what the special rules are for the Ice Wyrm in the Hunting the Wyrm rumor? That'll go a long way towards helping me decide, but the books are at the house where we game so I can't look it up myself.

I'm pretty sure I'll go for event treachery, just because I need the threat from Danger to protect lieutenants, but if the named Ice Wyrm in the rumor becomes an ungodly beast if he's gold, I might rather deal with weaker lieutenants for an extra turn.

I think you're overlooking an option, and in fact, one that almost dominates one of the ones you listed. You should highly considering buying more Trap Treachery. If all you want the Event treachery for is Danger in lieutenant fights, then a point of Trap lets you take Exploding Chest + Dance of Monkey God, which for a total of 8. That's not quite as good as Danger+Rage, but your Trap treachery is HALF as expensive. So for the same price as Event, you could buy TWO points of Trap Treachery, which can for more than Danger (Say Chest+Dance+CrushingBlockx2 = 14 threat), plus having the flexibility of actually PLAYING the blocks (or pits, if you prefer to take those, they are excellent for Slaggorath). Crushing blow is great, but it doesn't win Lt. fights, it just hurts the Heroes slightly in the long run. Plus, with Into My Parlor, you're guaranteed to have access to the Traps that you treachery in for dungeons, as opposed to the Event treachery which you will probably either not draw at all, or have it thrown out by Wind Pact.

So, summary: I think Trap Treachery x2 dominates Event Treachery x1. I don't know if it's better than the Gold Eldritch though. Ice Wyrms are very powerful if the party has TWO melee thugs in it (they have Ghost). Given that you've already used money on things like Silver Eldritch and Focused, I think you're committed to not playing the 'Slaggorath is an amazing hunter' game. You really need both Gold Beasts AND Acidic Poison to make him viable, plus as much Trap treachery as you can get. Either one on its own is not enough.

8 threat isn't nearly enough, and at the moment I've only got one turn to spend stuff. Danger pays for Dark Priests and Shades (or 2 other spawns). Exploding Chest and Dance of the Monkey God don't, and are useless outside of granting threat (the Danger also comes with a Rage, which can be massive alongside a Master Dark Priest). In the dungeon, Animate Weapons is one extra dead hero compared to Dark Charm. Crushing Blow will also kill a hero, and force him to spend an extra turn in town shopping to replace the armor that just blew up (or weapon, should I be looking to remove their offense).

For example, one of the melee brutes currently dual wields the silver sword that rolls 2 green and is 1:1 on damage. Blowing it up means he has to replace it with a normal sword or axe, dropping his damage output by a lot until they find a better replacement. the group's archer is using the copper Web crossbow, and with Guard orders effectively paralyzes any level boss. Blowing it up stops that strategy completely. Lord Hawthorne and his Knight / Unmovable combo is currently dealing massive damage with a Shadowblade, which means he frequently steals a threat from me. With another hero having Cautious, there are often times where I'm forced to decide between discarding several good cards or doing nothing on my turn because I can't afford the fun Overlord tricks. Destroying it would make his damage output plummet and get rid of his only weapon (he's got a mirror shield in his off hand). The mage has Drain Life and Cone of Fire, and taking either of those would be a big blow to his offense. He's Battlemage Jaes without a health upgrade (though he does carry Ghost Armor), so blowing up either of those instead would make him a much easier target to give me 4 xp.

Yes, they're easily replaceable, but that's more turns, more cards, and more threat for me. I'll definitely be buying more Trap treachery later, but right now I'm focusing on making the run to their rumor as painful as possible for them.

If you only have one turn to do things in Lt fights, you don't need two spawns; although I could be wrong, I was pretty sure the 'one spawn card per turn' rule still applied. Plus, like I said, the comparison isn't 1 point Green vs. 1 point Purple, it's 1 point Green vs. 2 points Purple. In a Lieutenant fight, 1 point green gives you 10 threat + Rage; 2 points purple gives you 11 threat + pit (if that's what you want). The rage can do more raw damage but is less flexible (requires a damage-dealing monster to actually get an attack in) and costs more threat (4 instead of 2 for the pit, or 1 if you're Slaggorath). Presumably the one point of Purple you already have is taking...probably (block or pit) + Dark Charm?

As for Crushing blow in dungeons, it indeed can be pretty good if the Heroes haven't learned to keep their backup weapons around - Bone Blade is only 2.5 damage less than Serpent Blade, so that's not exactly a "huge" damage by mid-silver. It also requires a monster to actually attack a Hero, which isn't always easy by that point in the game. Extra Dark Charms, on the other hand, are so flexible, they can create spawn opportunities where none previously existed (kill a Hero who was covering an important spawn line, and then spawn to kill a second hero). Again, it would still be a tough trade-off...except why isn't the Crushing Blow getting dropped by Wind Pact?

And if the answer is because the heroes don't HAVE Wind Pact...well, why haven't you won yet?

If you only have one turn to do things in Lt fights, you don't need two spawns; although I could be wrong, I was pretty sure the 'one spawn card per turn' rule still applied. Plus, like I said, the comparison isn't 1 point Green vs. 1 point Purple, it's 1 point Green vs. 2 points Purple.

I have only one week to spend xp, not one turn in the lieutenant fight. No matter how good 2 more trap treachery might be, it isn't an option at this point.

In a Lieutenant fight, 1 point green gives you 10 threat + Rage; 2 points purple gives you 11 threat + pit (if that's what you want). The rage can do more raw damage but is less flexible (requires a damage-dealing monster to actually get an attack in) and costs more threat (4 instead of 2 for the pit, or 1 if you're Slaggorath). Presumably the one point of Purple you already have is taking...probably (block or pit) + Dark Charm?

The higher cost of the Rage is offset by the higher value of the Danger. The need for a monster to be around to deal damage is not a liability, as the heroes cannot possibly one round a lieutenant who doesn't start in their line of sight. Or stop all of the spawned ones and also have killed every monster already on the board. Even the squishiest lieutenant has 40 health, 7 armor, shadowcloak, and 5 minions.

As for Crushing blow in dungeons, it indeed can be pretty good if the Heroes haven't learned to keep their backup weapons around - Bone Blade is only 2.5 damage less than Serpent Blade, so that's not exactly a "huge" damage by mid-silver.

Since I don't have Crushing Blow, there's no such thing as "backup weapons" yet, except for the Mage who carries two weapons for two scenarios, not as a backup. If the Crushing Blow later turns out to not be useful (and it theoretically might), it can easily be replaced with other 1-point events. Critical Strike or Enraged would easily be an extra 5-6 damage against this group.

It also requires a monster to actually attack a Hero, which isn't always easy by that point in the game.

Huh? It's completely impossible for monsters to never be able to attack the group. Either that, or I'll just go ahead and concede, since that sounds like the most boring time an Overlord could have.

Extra Dark Charms, on the other hand, are so flexible, they can create spawn opportunities where none previously existed (kill a Hero who was covering an important spawn line, and then spawn to kill a second hero).

What does "extra Dark Charms" mean? There are two Dark Charms in the deck, and I already have instant access to both via Into My Parlor. There is Animate Weapons as well, but it's currently out of reach and way too expensive (19 threat means a bare minimum of 23 before they "clear up spawn opportunities."

Again, it would still be a tough trade-off...except why isn't the Crushing Blow getting dropped by Wind Pact?

I don't have Crushing Blow and they don't have Wind Pact.

And if the answer is because the heroes don't HAVE Wind Pact...well, why haven't you won yet?

Because I can't possibly have won yet. My victory condition requires 13 weeks plus travel and siege times and there have only been 3 weeks so far.

Sorry, misunderstood on what you meant by 'number of turns,' interpreting it as number of turns in the Lieutenant fight instead of number of turns to actually purchase upgrades.

The fact that they don't have Wind Pact *is* significant and favors treachery more than it would otherwise...however, competent Heroes will be angling to get it as soon as possible, as it is probably the single the most important skill in the game.

Even so, I would still recommend a Gold Monster class over a single point of Treachery. The Heroes should, soon enough, be capable of clearing many dungeon floors on their first move; this is generally how the game plays out in late Silver and Gold campaign level. They should definitely be able to do so if all they have to face is Silver monsters. Indeed, it does kind of suck for the Overlord, but that's why I use my house-rules set to 'fix' things towards the later half of the campaign which is when things get out of whack. Even if you can't get the Gold Eldritch in time for the rumor dungeon, 1 point Green means *maybe* one crushing blow throughout the entire rumor dungeon. To me, that doesn't seem worth the risk of delaying the all-important monster upgrade.

I got to the session and checked out the stats for the wyrm in the rumor. With him having Ironskin and the rumor dungeon being littered with skeletons and shades, the upgrade for Eldritch was the only real option. His 7 armor and ironskin really helped, I earned ~65xp in the rumor dungeon through that and several eldritch spawns (fueled by gold Dark Priests that came out in the second level and stayed around for a while).

I was hoping I might actually get to buy the event treachery, attack with slaggaroth, and also be able to buy the eldritch upgrade. Unfortunately for that plan, they bought the Staff of the Wild while we were finishing up the third floor of the dungeon prior to Hunting the Wyrm, so I didn't get a chance to attack them.

Next decision: can (and should) I try to constantly assault them with Slaggaroth (and possibly Sir Alric) in the hopes of pushing the campaign into Gold before they can get to the Fool's Rapids. It'll stop the 6-armor ironskinned hero from getting Taunt for free, but will also mean several repetitive (and hence less fun) weeks. I'll have event treachery at the start of the cycle, and be able to buy more trap and spawn treachery as it goes.

That mostly comes down to a fun issue though, as I think it's definitely my best option tactically. I definitely wouldn't continue assaulting them if they went away from the Fool's Rapids, because the goal wouldn't be to constantly crush them, but rather to stop them from collecting freebies. I'd stop as soon as we went into Gold. I'm just not sure which is a bigger bummer: them going through multiple turns of being attacked, or me going through a full tier of a taunting 8+ armor ironskin hero. I'm mostly sure that I won't be winning the campaign anyway, because the Spider Queen is the weakest avatar by far, but a loss is pretty much assured if he they get the cherry picked bonuses from Fool's Rapids.

I tried to engineer TPKs to slow them down, but there was nothing I could do to stop Silhouette (speed 5, fatigue 5) from escaping the two fights. I did manage to get 24xp from killing the other heroes multiple times, which bumped us into gold right after the Fool's Rapids, but now get to contend with a Taunting, Ironskinned, 6 armor, 3-point-shield-carrying Verikas the Dead.