When not mentioned, I have assumed that any gear is of Common-craftsmanship. However, one of my players has questioned this is a particular case.

The Rogue Trader gets to select either "Best-craftsmanship enforcer light carapace or storm trooper carapace."

I read this as Best-craftsmanship enforcer light carapace or [Common-craftsmanship] storm trooper carapace while he reads it as Best-craftsmanship enforcer light carapace or [best-craftsmanship] storm trooper carapace. He says that the craftsmanship listed should apply to all of the options connected by a conjunction (the "or") unless it is specifically differentiated (as it is in all other cases except the Archmilitant's two bolt pistols option).

So, what level of Craftsmanship do you rule for a Rogue Trader's storm trooper carapace and the Archmilitant's two bolt pistols?

Id say, that you as if not described differently, everything is common craftmanship. So the arch militant gets two common craftmanship bolt pistols. Sadly, the book relies more on common sence as on precise writing of rules

I would go with your interpretation. The craftsmanship levels seem to be present to balance out the different starting options, so comparing enforcer caraprace with storm-trooper caraprace the two are balanced by making one best quality, otherwise going purely on the number why would anyone choose to start with best quality enforcer when they could get best quality storm-trooper instead.

Similarly for the arch-militant a good-quality hellgun is seen as about equivalent to two normal bolt pistols.

Your interpretation is correct. The craftsmanship will always prexif the equipment. Tell the little munchkin to stop trying to get better start gear

I'd agree with the choir here, though I hate that that the book didn't stick to one way of writing out the list of gear. In several careers, there are parings of "Good Quality Thingamgig or Common Quality Whatchamacallit" and other instances of "Good Quality Thingamagig or Watchamacallit" however, I think the Astropath sets the pattern for how tings are supposed to be as they are listed as having "Best-Craftsmanship laspistol or best-Craftsmanship stub automatic." So, two of the same craftsmanship qualities will be listed on either side of the "or" conjunction if they are both the same. Many items without a conjunction have no Craftsmanship listed and such items are understood to be common quality. So, two items separated by a conjunction which have the same craftsmanship will both have that craftsmanship listed while items of a common craftsmanship may or may not have said craftsmanship listed, it's simply understood to be common by default. So, with or without a conjunction, if there is no craftsmanship listed, it must be the default craftsmanship.

Beyond all that, common sense would say that one of those armours has to be of a lesser craftsmanship, otherwise why have the choice? As it is with the light carapace being best and the storm carapace being common, they both work out to offer the same AP, each simply has a different flair, one being ornate and ostentatious, the other being basic and utilitarian -it's all about what the characters style is as opposed to what offers the best protection.

Best-craftsmanship enforcer light carapace is the no-brainer choice over Common-craftsmanship storm trooper carapace since both have the same AP yet the enforcer has much lower weight and can be customized to whatever appearance the character wishes. I wonder if it should offer Common-craftsmanship power armour instead of storm trooper carapace. That way there would be some advantages to either choice.

HappyDaze said:

If some options mention the partiuclar craftsmanship while others don't, the the ones without mention are supposed to be of common craftsmanship.

HappyDaze said:

Hmm. Perhaps this is because you might be able to improve the quality of your storm trooper carapace later on, and improving an item's quality is easier to do than buying an entire new piece of the same item with the improved quality?

Like, let's say that you have a common quality bolt pistol already, then finding and paying for some custom parts for it and have them installed will overall be cheaper and easier to have done, rather than having to pay for an entire bolt pistol of the same craftsmanship.

If that's the case then the common craftsmanship storm trooper carapace might have a certain advantage over best light carapace. The light carapace might start out at best quality and all, but by then it's potential is already capped and can't be improved upon further. The stormtrooper carapace has the same AP, but have the potential to be improved further and actually getting a better AP than it starts out with.

That makes sense, don't you agree?

That's making an assumption that you can upgrade something's craftsmanship level, and that's not something I accept - because I believe that it will typically be easier to just get the better quality version built from scratch.

HappyDaze said:

Really? How come?

I mean, if we're talking about items that are mass produced and cheap, I can see why it would be easier to get a better quality version built from scratch. (like a mass produced plastic digital watch or cellphone or something. You don't have those repaired if they break or become obsolete, you just buy a new one)

But we're talking about a suit of armour here. And not just a soft kevlar body armour with the standardised "Small-Medium-Large-Xtra Large- Xtra Xtra Large" ratio of sizes, but a full body armour made up of rigid components with soft joints that pretty much has to be custom made to fit the wearer least it becomes unwearable, even if it's just a common quality or even bad quality piece of Storm Trooper Carapace Armour.

I'd say that it would be less of a hassle to simply exchange some of the cheaper parts of it for more expensive and durable parts, and strap on some more layers of armour plates to it and thus improve it's qyality rather than having to go through the long and ardous process of fitting and machine an entire new set of that armour.

Also, the rulebook seems to have this in mind (at least with carpace armour), since the description of carapace armour on page 139 states:

Some bodysuits have slots designed for simple carapace plates to be inserted in, so that the overall suits can be rapidly configured for as much or as little protection as desired. Damaged plates can be more easily replaced without requiring the purchase of an entire new suit.

With this in mind, it seems that in order to change the quality of a common quality Storm Trooper Carapace Armour, it's simply a matter of using more advanced (and probably a bit more expensive) carapace plates rather than the common quality ones.

Of course, it's your game to run and im not trying to stop you from houseruling things that you see fit. It's just that I find it a bit wierd to say that no piece of wargear at all can have it's quality improved, and that you have to buy a new one every time you want an upgrade.

Seems to me like such rulings would be more appropriate as a case by case scenario. Had we been talking about flak armour or a lasgun, I would have certainly agreed with you, but when it comes to Storm Trooper Carapace Armour I think it's a different story.

EDIT: Oh! And another thing I just thought of, if you don't mind references from Dark Heresy sourcebooks. Consider the Lathe Blade Upgrade described in Inquisitors Handbook. Buying that upgrade instantly increase the weapons quality to best craftsmanship regardless of what quality it was before. So there's a case more or less supported by actual rules where one piece of wargear has it's quality improved, even if it was jus a poor quality sword or a knife from the beginning, having it reforged with the particular metal alloys unique to the Lathes will improve it's quality.

Also, if im not mistaken I think the crafting rules in the same book can permit players to improve the quality of any piece of wargear as long as they have the relevant trade skill and the necessary materials at hand. But im not entirely sure about that one because I haven't read that much about the crafting rules (using them only came up once during our many scenarios of playing DH, so it wasn't that important).

EDIT: Oh! And another thing I just thought of, if you don't mind references from Dark Heresy sourcebooks. Consider the Lathe Blade Upgrade described in Inquisitors Handbook. Buying that upgrade instantly increase the weapons quality to best craftsmanship regardless of what quality it was before. So there's a case more or less supported by actual rules where one piece of wargear has it's quality improved, even if it was jus a poor quality sword or a knife from the beginning, having it reforged with the particular metal alloys unique to the Lathes will improve it's quality.

You don't upgrade a weapon to a Lathe blade - it's either produced as such or it will never be one. As a player, you apply Lathe as an upgrade to a base weapon to get the stats of the Lathe blade, but in-game it's a distinct piece of gear that is built from the start into its final form.

As for the armour, consider taking a cheap off-the-rack business suit. You can't really adjust the material quality and cut if you want to make it into the finest quality suit available. I'd say that carapace armour is the same way since every part of it has to be custom-fitted - including the undersuit and the plating - and that the effort of upgrading piecemeal is going to be more skill- and cost-intensive that buying the completed set.

And as for houseruling, please find me one reference in the RT book that says you can upgrade the craftsmanship of an Acquisition after the fact, because I havn't seen any.

HappyDaze said:

Did you just overlook the Carapace Armour description I quoted from the book?

Also, here's a quote from the crafting rules in Inquisitors Handbook for you:

Similary, you may wish to improve upon an item already in your possession, either by upgrading it's functionality or improving it's craftsmanship.

page 245 under "Using Crafting Skills"

Clearly, there is support in the rules for improving the craftsmanship of items already constructed. At least if you use sourcematerial from DH, which are supposed to be fully compatible with RT...

Varnias Tybalt said:

Your reference to the description of carapace armour doesn't sway me - there's no reason for me to believe that just slipping in better plates will increase the overall armour to Best-craftsmanship (as i see it, the armour's craftsmanship is more than just the sum of its components - its in how they all work together), but the lead on the IH rules for crafting are helpful. Thank you for that.

Doublepost. Please remove.

HappyDaze said:

Oh yes I agree, but it sure is a start right?

Like aside from having to replace the armour plates with more dense and durable variants, it could be that the standard quality armour has an undersuit of tough quilted fabric. If you want to improve the quality to good or best, you need to get an undersuit made up of segmented metal or perhaps some sort of mesh undersuit instead.

Also, perhaps the standard variant of the armour has mass produced clips, buckles and fasteners which can sometimes fail if put under stress during fighting, and sometimes they might cause the individual parts of the armour to nit be completely secured for optimum preformance. If you want to increase the quality of the armour, you have to remove the standard clips and buckles and replace them with more high grade kinds, that are machined into place on each individual part of the armour.

Doing these individual upgrades might not improve the quality of the armour. But doing all of these upgrades would most likely result in a suit of armour of better craftsmanship than the standard version. And due to the ardous task of creating a set of form fitting armour of rigid parts, using a set of lesser quality that is already fashioned after it's wearer would most likely be cheaper and easier than simply buying a full new set of better craftsmanship.

There is some interesting reading out there about how they made suits of armour in medival times, and the improvements they fashioned for them, to make them better and more ornate.

HappyDaze said:

Glad I could help.

Still like I said in the previous post, I totally agree with you that some goods would just be a waste of time trying to improve rather than just buying a new and improved piece of the same product (like with my example with cellphones and plastic digital watches). But if you have a solid gold rolex, that you inherited from your grandfather or something, and you feel a bit richer at the moment and would like to give it some extra bling, then having the old rolex fitted with a bunch of diamonds would most likely be cheaper overall than buying a new gold and diamond fitted rolex timepiece.

Sentimental and superstitious reasons are important to consider. For instance, what if that particular Storm Trooper Carapace armour actually saved the wearers life from a horrible swipe of a daemon's clawed paw once? Or maybe that particular common quality power sword was used to fell a rampaging Ork Warboss?

Considering the superstitious nature of pretty much all Imperial citizens, most of them would not want to part with such valued pieces of wargear of clearly proven spirit and blessings. But they might find themselves with some extra cash at the time, or have just befriended a master armourer and would like to have these pieces of wargear improved further, but not want to replace them altogether.

Wouldn't you agree that it is a lot cooler and more in spirit of the setting to have your "lucky bolt pistol", pimped and customized to further improve it's performance, rather than just throwing "the old thing" away and buy a new and better one when that particular bolt pistol was successfully used to blow the head of your most hated arch-nemesis and also saved your life on countless occasions against all manner of foul monstrosities?

Just ruling that the players can't do that because it will ALWAYS be too costly and inefficient and that they'll have to fork out the dough for an entirely new piece seems a bit harsh when you consider this aspect, don't you agree?

I don't know, I just consider this thinking to be an important part of roleplaying, when players actually go to great lengths showing that their characters don't treat their trusted weapons as cheap prostitutes in a "wham-bam-thank you ma'am" manner, but rather in the way they would treat a wife or even a child for that matter. It adds so much flair to the game.

Much of the 'better craftsmanship' qualities is due to details like those mentioned above; better fit, better finish, higher quality replaceable part. That means that for many items, essentially the larger or more expensive ones, you really can improve the quality rather than discarding and replacing with a better one.

HappyDaze said:

I can give one very good reason why I might take the common craftsmanship Storm Trooper Carapace over the best quality Enforcer Light Carapace: logistics. Consider the following:

Your dynasty is going through hard times, and your Profit Factor is a mere 20. You get into a nasty series of fights, and your GM requires you to make an upkeep roll with regard to your armor.

If you were wearing the best quality enforcer light carapace, the modifers come to -10 (Rare Availability -10, Negligible Scale +30, Best Quality -30).

If you were wearing the common quality storm trooper carapace, the modifers come to +10 (Very Rare Availability -20, Negligible Scale +30, Common Quality +0).

The difference, then, is either rolling under a modified 10 or a modified 30. Under these circumstances, you might be better off going with the common quality storm trooper carapace.

-Kirov, who believes that logistics is one of the most under-appreciated disciplines of all time.

Actually I don't think that upkeeping a single suit of armor would stress any kind of RT-dynasty that much, that it would require an upkeeptest for it. If you have suited your whole personal honorguard with expensive armor and weapons, that might be another thing, but a single set of armor... nah, not really.

GM's call like anything else, though you might want to look under "Upkeep Tests" on page 275. It's suggested that an upkeep test be done whenever something gets "expended, damaged, or destroyed", and even goes so far to list "massive damage to a suit of armor". It doesn't matter if we're talking about one suit or 100; you still need to make the upkeep test, with appropriate modifiers. The upkeep test is the acquisition test all over again, which can prove to be a problem if you have a low Profit Factor.

-Kirov

Sure, if the armor gets damaged... but beside that... well, it's of course up to the gm to call for such rolls.