N0-1_H3r3 said:

@ NO-1_H3R3

i think what HappyDaze is trying to say is that foes of this sort a one-trick pony of GMing, maybe a three-trick one at best before this becomes all the same that the PCs have heard before. foes like these have a tendency to NOT be used well by many GMs and are used as a way to stack the deck against the PCs. for some, GMing can be a power trip. i know, i've played with a number of guys like these.

should the fight against the PCs be fair? HELL NO!!! the Acolytes are already outnumbered and outgunned having to face a wide variety of very nasty foes. the PCs have to use every trick at their disposal, and that is the way that it should be. i tell all my players coming in...look over your characters, study them , think past the obvious..i have created alot of my own house rules, starting Acolytes are more powerful than average and my games are purposefully nasty. i have given the players the tools to survive most encounters. the rest is up to them. for those encounters that they can't handle these have been designed to be so...encounters whereby...they need to know when to RUN..and/or they must become extremely creative tactically in defeating their foe. for each encounter, there MUST be a few ways for the PCs to be able to withdraw or win.

the enemy gifted with such insights is perfectly fine as an opponent for any game..its the stuff of legend in many a good story-line whether they be be movies, TV, novels or game. as you have pointed out 'IF done carefully, subtly and in the correct manner'. i don't really feel that the 'average' Chaos Space Marine falls into this realm. not all of the Thousand Sons will have such power else they would all rival Ahriman in power. or all members of the Alpha Legion would be a mastermind. cunning, yes. diabolical, yes. too intelligent to be defeatable, def. NOT.

even those very powerful seers, sorcerers and masterminds are never all knowing. they see possibilities and probabilities, not sureties. even fluffwise, had these individuals had such power...no Marine, Inquisitor, Assassin, Acolytes or Guard armies would ever win a contest against such massive intellect or insight. even the Emperor was blind to his own future.

even as cunning as a CSM can be, they can still be defeated by a well armed and canny group of Acolytes. the master hunter can become the prey. nothing is infallible. all the canon and surrounding lore of 40K instructs on this.

I'll bow out now and let the liegekiller take up my points. He seems to understand my points and may well be able to present them without getting pulled into the 'tude-fray that the thread was fast becoming. Good luck to all.

the liegekiller said:

Oh, of course; but the fact remains that such individuals will invariably try to 'stack the deck' against their enemies, often in an extreme manner (and possibly to their own downfall - focus on your foe too heavily, and you may miss something crucial elsewhere). The easiest battle to win, afterall, is the one your enemy doesn't know he's fighting. That isn't inherently "bad GMing"; misuse of the concept is the problem, not the concept itself.

More importantly, the idea of the villain-as-apparently-omniscient-manipulator can drive a campaign; if those manipulations touch the players' actions from the start, it gives them (and their characters, obviously) all the more incentive to bring that villain down. It won't be easy, it won't be painless, and it may take several attempts (there's no rule that says that the villain has to go down the first time he encounters the PCs face to face; the point is not to assert dominance over the players, but to fuel feelings of anger towards the villain and spur on the desire to bring him down), but with every step closer the PCs take towards stopping the villain, they drive him to distraction and obsession more and more... at the end of it, it's rewarding for the players to finally triumph, against all odds and an enemy that wields fate itself.

Chaos Space Marines in general are, or rather should be, epic and eminently memorable adversaries for Acolytes. They're not common-or-garden foes to be slain by the bucket-load, nor are they simple brute-thugs with brawn but no brains (well, some are, but they're not really the archetype here). That's the point, and that's the challenge - a smart, ruthless, vicious adversary with no regard for human life, a lust for murder and mayhem, and centuries of combat experience (on top of superhuman physical abilities and incredible wargear) is not the kind of foe that anyone faces happily, nor the kind of foe that one defeats unscathed. Players should never be afraid or reluctant to retreat from and rethink a situation, especially against such a deadly enemy. They're not easy NPCs to present, because of the expectations that come with them - these are the chosen warriors of the Chaos Gods, the finest warriors in the Imperium, turned against it. Players familiar with the setting will expect them to be deadly and scary enemies, and they deserve to be presented as such.

That's nothing to do with them being unbeatable, and everything to do with them putting up a fight worthy of their status. Defeating one should be a tale oft-retold, a triumph worthy of heroes, and a source of exhilaration. The bigger the challenge, the tougher the fight, the greater the satisfaction for the players. And that's the key to the whole thing; an enemy like a Chaos Space Marine should be utterly terrifying, ruthlessly effective and nigh-unstoppable because it makes the players' success that much more exciting and memorable. There really, IMO, would be no point otherwise.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Seconded.

As acolytes, taking down a CSM (and their assorted backup, for they are probably not operating entirely on their own) should be extremly difficult and painful (the maiming and/or death of multiple NPCs close to the acolytes and even some of the acolytes themselves are likely events), but this is the point for in doing so an epic story will unfold.

Of course this is just my opinion. I place a typical CSM in a teir far above what a starting or mid-range acolyte would be capable of dealing with. You can run them in more of a combat-monkey fashion if thats what your group finds fun but I think there are plenty of other antagonists that could fill that role in the DH setting without resorting to one of the big-bads that is a near immortal foot soldier of the traitorous legions.

HappyDaze said:

Yeah, I've been involved in a few violent situations in my life, but if you consider protecting yourself from physical injury and even death to be "less-than-legal" then please tell me the next time a drunk guy is swinging a wood-splitting axe at you and I'll be sure to watch as you just stand there and let your head get split open, because it would be "less-than-legal" in your opinion to defend yourself.

Or perhaps you would defend yourself, and in that case be a hypocrite instead? (which I have always suspected you to be, but im smart enough to not base my entire opinion of you because of a few out-of-context examples, unlike you apparently)

You have a great deal to learn about life and people in general that's for sure. One of the primary things is that you don't really know somebody just because you've heard of a few instances of that persons life. It's not even a glimpse. So whatever those few instances might tell you about me, it is most certainly warped and utterly wrong. The difference between you and me is that im not too quick to form an opinion when I know I have too little information at hand, but you seem to pass judgement within the blink of an eye, and with not nearly enough information to suppor that judgement to boot.

But hey, im sure you sleep better at night being as prejudiced as you are. It's easier not try looking at the big picture of things when you feel safe passing judgement on it by just catching a glimpse of it through a keyhole isn't it?

Not that I really care much about your personal opinions of me, but when you display them like that and reveal what you've based them on, it REALLY says something about you as a person. And suddenly you've gone from coming close to become yet another internet dweller who I don't care about in the slightest to becoming someone I genuinely pity.

I pity you if you're actually so narrow minded as you make yourself out to be, and I genuinely hope that you're just trying to pull my leg when you write such prejudiced comments like you have...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Hence why I believe that any real confrontation with a Chaos Space Marine should have it's odds stacked against the player characters. Mainly because im very familiar with how the rules of Dark Heresy work and what would happen if I pitted a single CSM against a group of well armed acolytes. The Chaos Space Marine would be pulled over the PC's lap and spanked like a little girl. Heck even if we're just talking about a group between levels 1-4 this would happen. Even if they are just armed with autoguns, lasguns, shotguns, hand cannons and the odd bolter this would happen (I've play tested it with Brother Sergeant Agamorr and his stats and he was split in half by the acolytes in their 3rd to 5th ranks). Why does this happen?

Well you see, as many talents, traits and beefy stats you can grant an NPC, the rules don't really take the freak instances of sick Righteous Fury results into account. And when you're playing with a group of between 3-5 people, the odds for them rolling RT's will grow to epic proportions, and if they're facing a lone enemy (albeit a very strong and formidable enemy) if they are facing it in a stand up fight, that enemy will be slaughtered way too quick for the situation to actually feel challenging.

I can't begin to tell you how many anti-climactic "boss fights" my group has been involved in, where the stats of the bosses looked really intimidating at first, but their wounds quickly dwindled down due to the fact that the PC's we're cooperating with eachother and always did things in a strategically sound manner and because of the fact that they had some knowledge about the stats of different weapons and had kitted out their characters with good hardware whenever they got the chance.

Now I have yet to introduce a Chaos Space Marine into a Dark Heresy campaign, but if I do, I want the battle to be just what you describe: "a tale oft-retold, a triumph worthy of heroes, and a source of exhilaration."

It is after all a situations where normal humans take on a genetically engineered warrior designed (according to the fluff) to best 100 normal men in combat, and (hopefully) manage to beat that warrior. But I don't feel like revamping every bit of the RAW that would be necessary to actually portray everything as it should be portrayed. So im going to take all the lessons I've learned as a GM into consideration and plan out how the battle will look (the enviroment, the available but most likely hidden options the PC's can use etc.), and I will MOST DEFINETLY stack the odds against the PC's rather than stack them in their favor. If only when they're fighting a lone marine and not several. If they have to take on an entire squad, then I might consider leveling the playing field because if that situation ever occurs the players will figuratively **** their pants in fear to even notice how easy some of the CSM's went down in the firefight.

But if it's a lone one (and most likely the first one they have ever encountered) I need to make an impression, and I won't be able to do that as a GM if I give the players a "fair fight", because at those levels they will most likely be, and with those weapons they have gotten ahold of, one Chaos Space Marine just won't be enough of a challenge if he's charging headlong towards them for several rounds and effectively getting blasted to bits before even being able to hit the PC's. That's why I feel it would be important to play the CSM smart. Someone who actually use strategems and tactics to his advantage because not only does that go extremely well with the fluff (like I've pointed out, a Chaos Space Marine is a timeless warrior with more experience in his pinky than the Acolytes will ever hope to achieve themselves), but it would prove to make the battle exciting and interesting for the players.

There's nothing interesting and exciting about being able to nailing your first Chaos Space Marine in the head with a melta shot and kill him outright with the help of a righteous fury before the fight has even started. That would just be dull and boring and anti-climatic as hell...

Varnias Tybalt said:

That, I don't know. I've been playing and running Dark Heresy for three and a half years now - having been a playtester - and I've never seen examples as extreme as a couple of those described (nearest was seeing a Biomancer utterly end the Bloodletter she'd summoned through judicious use of Corpus Conversion and Bio-Lightning; I commented on how powerful that talent seemed, nobody seemed to care). I've generally seen a much more even end result, with things occasionally favouring the NPCs more than the PCs (a few distinct encounters with the Slaugth only once ended in a player victory, and that was only after three burnt fate points and a PC death; meanwhile, the group suffered serious wounds at the hands of the Dark Eldar in Shades on Twilight, after I gave the raiders a few special weapons and added +2 to the damage of Splinter Pistols and Splinter Rifles).

Varnias Tybalt said:

Few systems handle "party vs lone enemy" well, for one very clear reason beyond system-specific ones - availability of actions. For every attempt the solitary big bad gets to maim the PCs, the players get one each. D&D4 is one of the few systems I've seen that attempts to address this issue, with specially-designed Solo monsters designed to be worthwhile encounters in their own right (with varying amounts of success).

I think a lot of it comes down to personal experience - I've not seen such villain-ending instances of Righteous Fury happen all that often (Righteous Fury happens plenty, but normally only for one, maybe two, extra dice, when simply gunning down 'average' enemies, or trying to incapacitate rather than kill a fleeing suspect), so I don't use it in my frame of reference; clearly you do, because you've experienced it far more frequently. As I GM and write by gut instinct and experience, rather than hard stats (which, in my defence, has worked extremely well for me so far), the odds of such things happening tend not to be a concern...

I've actually stopped doing "lone villain" battle scenes; they don't work properly. A mob of expendable distractions with autoguns is often sufficient to keep players' attention diverted enough to make the main enemy that much more survivable and effective. Not even the likes of a Carnifex or Hive Tyrant will come to battle solo in my games anymore...

Edit: I've put together a few Chaos Marine profiles that I posted on these boards elsewhere a while ago. This thread seems quite appropriate for them, however, if only as an example of the kind of beings they could and should be; there's no "Generic Chaos Space Marine", but rather individuals with histories, purposes and motives all their own. The first is the sorcerous demagogue whose might matches his ability to corrupt and inspire rebellion, the second is the paragon of slaughter, and the third is the devious manipulator and sorcerer.

The Crimson Pilgrim (Word Bearers)
The Crimson Pilgrim is considered a myth by many in the Inquisition, a non-existent scapegoat upon which countless atrocities have been blamed in every corner of the Imperium. Nothing could be further from the truth, and those few Inquisitors who do believe in the being’s existence continue to seek this legendary servant of the Dark Gods.
His modus-operandi is simple enough—he wanders across the Imperium (by unknown means—when tracked down he seems simply to vanish without a trace, and no starships precede or follow his rumoured appearances), spreading a perverse faith which idolises the Ruinous Powers and their Daemons, and mercilessly butchering those who will not convert. These slaughters are generally attributed to the frenzied, destructive cults he gathers and unleashes; while their true perpetrator moves on to continue in his profane mission.
In truth, the Crimson Pilgrim is Anoth Tirigan, formerly Sergeant of Squad Ubara in the 11th Company of the Word Bearers Legion. When the betrayal came, Tirigan was at the forefront of the Istvaan Dropsite Massacre, and though his entire squad was destroyed, Tirigan emerged unscathed from the conflict, claiming divine provenance for his miraculous survival. Refusing a replacement squad, stating that “the Gods have a plan for me, and me alone, and will tolerate no others sharing in it”, he continued to fight at the front lines of the most vicious battles until the end of the war. Rather than remain with one of the hosts, he struck out on his own shortly thereafter, carried through the Warp by some unknown patron and deposited on world after world, spreading the Dark Creed to countless worlds.
Within the Calixis Sector, the Crimson Pilgrim’s activities have brought him into contact with the Pilgrims of Hayte, who share his goal of the ruination of the Imperium, and he has aided them as an impromptu False Prophet at times. However, their view that even Chaos is merely a tool to be used does not sit well with Tirigan’s devotion, and for the most part, he continues his holy work alone. To date, two separate atrocities within the Calixis Sector have been attributed to him in the last century, though whether or not he is responsible for them is another matter entirely—the legend of the Crimson Pilgrim has spread to many worlds, many of which Tirigan has never set foot upon.

WS BS S T Ag Int Per WP Fel
53 51 66 (10) 49 (8) 42 (4) 37 (3) 44 (4) 53 (5) 43 (4)

Movement: 5/10/15/30; Wounds: 24

Skills: Awareness (Per), Charm (Fel) +10, Climb (S), Command (Fel) +20, Common Lore (Imperium) (Int), Forbidden Lore (Daemonology) (Int) +10, Forbidden Lore (Warp) (Int), Interrogation (WP) +10, Intimidate (S) +10, Invocation (WP), Medicae (Int), Psyniscience (Per), Scholastic Lore (Legend) (Int) +20, Scholastic Lore (The Astartes) (Int) +20, Scrutiny (Per), Speak Language (Low Gothic) (Int), Speak Language (High Gothic) (Int), Speak Language (Daemonic) (Int), Survival (Int)

Talents: Air of Authority, Ambidextrous, Basic Weapon Training (Universal), Combat Master, Die Hard, Disarm, Favoured by the Warp, Furious Assault, Hatred (Servants of the Imperium), Hatred (Xenos), Lightning Attack, Litany of Hate, Melee Weapon Training (Universal), Mighty Shot, Pistol Training (Universal), Sorcerer, Swift Attack, Takedown, Touched by the Fates (3 Fate Points), True Grit, Two-Weapon Wielder (Melee, Ballistic)

Traits: From Beyond, Hulking (included), Unnatural Strength (x2), Unnatural Toughness (x2)

Sorcery: Effective Psy Rating 2.
Minor Arcana: Fearful Aura (9), Inflict Pain (10), Space Slip (13), Weaken Veil (11), Whispers of the Warp (11).
Major Arcana: Agony (15), Bio-Lightning (16), Force Bolt (15), Malefic Curse (Hex) (16), Telepathy (13).

Armour: Corrupted Astartes Power Armour (Head 10, Arms 11, Body 12, Legs 11). Note the armour provides +20 to Tirigan’s Strength (+2 SB, included) and increases his size to Hulking.

Weapons: Accursed Bolter (110m; S/2/4; 2d10+2 X; Pen 5; Clip 30; Rld Full; Tearing, every Critical caused also inflicts 1 Corruption Point), Berhyg’te (Daemonic Chainsword; WP 36; 1d10+15 E; Pen 5; Tearing, Dark Fire (Damage type becomes E, enemies struck catch light), Hungering (+5 to Critical Damage))

Equipment: 4 Bolter Magazines, assorted trophies and fetishes (count as a psy-focus)

Threat Rating: Malleus Extremis

Ahmar, The Avatar of Hate (World Eaters)
The Avatar of Hate has cut a bloody swathe across a string of worlds in his long existence. No world he has set foot upon has been spared the intensity of his wrath, and even where he has been defeated, his body broken and burnt from brutal retaliation, he has returned anew elsewhere to continue his epic slaughter.
During the Great Crusade, Captain Ahmar was the leader of the 16th Assault Company of the World Eaters, a bold and relentless warrior striving to exemplify the ruthless and vicious example of his Primarch. When the time came to purge the Legion of those still loyal to the Emperor, Ahmar lost many Astartes—fully half of his company was formed of loyalists and Terrans, and the bonds of brotherhood are not easily broken.
Ahmar was furious—he had honed his company into a deadly weapon, and to see it split asunder by what he saw as foolish ideology spurred his anger further. By the time of the Siege of Terra, it had grown, in part through the encouragement of his fellow captains and his Primarch’s example, into seething resentment for the Emperor.
Ahmar was slain during the Siege of Terra, obliterated by the defensive artillery fire coming from the Emperor’s Palace. That, however, was not the end of his story. Hateful until the last, Ahmar received a boon from Khorne, who had taken the World Eaters as his own, and the Space Marine knew life once more. Three centuries had passed, and the resurrected Ahmar found himself on another world, far from Terra, chain-axe in his armoured fist as it had been at the moment of his death. He stood in a darkened chamber, the scent of blood strong in the stale air—a slaughterhouse. No place could be more fitting for the rebirth of a creature made and remade only to kill.
Ahmar slaughters in Khorne’s name until retribution finds him, but no longer does he fear death, for with every end he meets, he will be reborn elsewhere in blood and mayhem, so that he might continue to take skulls for his master, every time changed a little more so he might better kill his enemies. His methods have adapted over the millennia, and with each life he does his master’s work differently, sometimes slaying all in sight until he is stopped, other times lurking in the shadows, inspiring dread in his victims, or acting as the muscle for other servants of the Dark Gods, lending his strength and his blade to their devotions until he grows bored and butchers them all.
Ahmar’s hate knows no end, and so long as he hates, Khorne will give him life so he may rend flesh and bone and spill blood. Nothing else matters to the Avatar of Hate.

WS BS S T Ag Int Per WP Fel
64 38 71 (12) 48 (8) 42 (4) 28 (2) 48 (4) 63 (6) 23 (2)

Movement: 5/10/15/30; Wounds: 28

Skills: Awareness (Per), Climb (S), Intimidate (S) +20, Scholastic Lore (Legend) (Int) +10, Scholastic Lore (The Astartes) (Int) +10, Speak Language (Low Gothic) (Int), Survival (Int) +20

Talents: Ambidextrous, Basic Weapon Training (Universal), Battle Rage, Combat Master, Crippling Strike, Crushing Blow, Die Hard, Disarm, Frenzy, Furious Assault, Hatred (Everyone and Everything), Lightning Attack, Melee Weapon Training (Universal), Mental Fortress, Pistol Training (Universal), Precise Blow, Strong Minded, Sure Strike, Swift Attack, Takedown, Touched by the Fates (3 Fate Points), True Grit, Two-Weapon Wielder (Melee, Ballistic), Wall of Steel

Traits: Brutal Charge, From Beyond, Hulking (included), Unnatural Strength (x2), Unnatural Toughness (x2)

Armour: Corrupted Astartes Power Armour without Helm (Arms 9, Body 9, Legs 9). Note the armour provides +20 to Ahmar’s Strength (+2 SB, included) and increases his size to Hulking.

Weapons: Slaughterfang (Best Quality Chain Axe; 1d10+19 R; Pen 4; Tearing, +10 WS)

Equipment: None

Threat Rating: Malleus Extremis

Nebmakhet, The Haruspex Tenebrae (Thousand Sons)
The Tyrant Star is not solely a matter of interest to the Inquisitors of the Tyrantine Cabal. Others, or darker nature or intent are curious as to the nature of this phenomenon as well. Little is known, by any party, of the true nature of the object known as Komus, and though the Eldar seem to have some inkling as to what it may mean or represent, they are reticent to enter the Calixis Sector, let alone speak of the thing that haunts it.
Nebmakhet’s early life remains unknown—he might once have been a petty sorcerer-scholar in Magnus the Red’s legion, or he may be something else entirely. Regardless, it is not a matter he dwells upon, nor is it a matter recorded in any form accessible to the Imperium. If he was once of the Thousand Sons—and this is likely, considering that he is often accompanied by the automata-soldiers who comprise the bulk of that legion’s warriors—then only he and the Traitor Legion’s leaders will know for certain.
In the Calixis Sector’s history, a vessel identified as the Thousand Sons’ frigate Catastrophic Scrutiny has been sighted eleven times. On most of those occasions, the vessel managed to elude Imperial forces attempting to engage it, but twice it has been seen to suffer crippling damage and be subsequently destroyed, only to reappear some centuries later, with not a mark upon it.
Nebmakhet is a scholar-prophet, as far as any can tell, with a deep interest in the Tyrant Star—indeed, every one of his known appearances (and likely many further appearances unknown to the Imperium) has been near a world that had recently, or would shortly after, be subjected to the horrific presence of Komus. Some within the Inquisition initially believed him to be a possible source of the star’s movements, but his actions seem more investigative than causative, as if the matter is a mystery and source of curiosity amongst the servants of the Ruinous Powers as well as the Imperium.
Irrespective of his origins or intent, the Tyrantine Cabal would dearly love to see Nebmakhet captured and extensively interrogated, in order to gather whatever knowledge he has gleaned in his millennia of study. However, the sorcerer is too elusive to be so easily trapped.

WS BS S T Ag Int Per WP Fel
48 51 58 (8) 34 (6) 47 (4) 43 (4) 43 (4) 55 (5) 39 (3)

Movement: 5/10/15/30; Wounds: 24

Skills: Awareness (Per), Climb (S), Command (Fel) +10, Common Lore (Imperium) (Int), Forbidden Lore (Daemonology) (Int) +20, Forbidden Lore (Warp) (Int) +20, Interrogation (WP) +10, Intimidate (S) +10, Invocation (WP) +10, Medicae (Int), Psyniscience (Per) +20, Scholastic Lore (Astromancy) (Int) +10, Scholastic Lore (Legend) (Int) +20, Scholastic Lore (Occult) (Int) +10, Scholastic Lore (The Astartes) (Int) +20, Scrutiny (Per) +10, Speak Language (Low Gothic) (Int), Speak Language (High Gothic) (Int) +10, Speak Language (Prosperan) (Int) +20, Speak Language (Daemonic) (Int) +10, Survival (Int)

Talents: Ambidextrous, Basic Weapon Training (Universal), Combat Master, Die Hard, Disarm, Favoured by the Warp, Hatred (Space Wolves Space Marines), Hatred (Xenos), Lightning Attack, Melee Weapon Training (Universal), Pistol Training (Universal), Power Well, Psy Rating 4, Sorcerer, Swift Attack, Takedown, Touched by the Fates (3 Fate Points), Two-Weapon Wielder (Melee, Ballistic).

Traits: From Beyond, Hulking (included), Soul-Bound (to Tzeentch, Characteristic Loss), Unnatural Strength (x2), Unnatural Toughness (x2)

Psychic Powers: Effective Psy Rating 5, including Sorcery.
Minor Powers: Distort Vision (8), Fearful Aura (7), Inflict Pain (8), Lucky (6), Precognition (6), Resist Possession (6), Revelation of Truth (13), Torch (5), Unnatural Aim (8), Warp Howl (8), Weaken Veil (9), White Noise (8)
Discipline Powers: Dowsing (11), Fire Bolt (11), Preternatural Awareness (9), Psychometry (16), Sculpt Flame (13), Wall of Fire (17)

Armour: Corrupted Astartes Power Armour (Head 8, Arms 9, Body 9, Legs 8). Note the armour provides +20 to Nebmakhet’s Strength (+2 SB, included) and increases his size to Hulking.

Weapons: Tainted Bolter with Inferno Bolts (110m; S/2/4; 2d10 E; Pen 5; Clip 30; Rld Full; Tearing, Warp Weapon), Force Staff (1d10+13 I; Pen 7; Balanced, Force Weapon, Psy Focus)

Equipment: 4 Bolt Pistol Magazines (loaded with Tzeentchian Inferno Bolts)

Threat Rating: Malleus Extremis

As noted above, Nebmakhet is often accompanied by a handful of Thousand Sons Chaos Space Marines, near-mindless automaton-warriors made from the souls and armoured suits of the Battle Brothers of the Thousand Sons legion as a consequence of the Rubric of Ahriman. Lumbering and lacking in initiative, they require the guiding will of a Sorcerer to make them truly effective in battle, though each one is still a formidable combatant in its own right.

WS BS S T Ag Int Per WP Fel
45 45 54 (8) 36 (12) 27 (2) 18 (1) 27 (2) 54 (5) - (0)

Movement: 3/6/9/18; Wounds: 27

Skills: Awareness (Per), Psyniscience (Per), Speak Language (Prosperan, understand only) (Int)

Talents: Basic Weapon Training (Bolt),

Traits: Auto-stabilised, Daemonic (TB 12), Dark Sight, From Beyond, Hulking (included), The Stuff of Nightmares, Unnatural Strength (x2), Unnatural Toughness (x2)

Armour: Corrupted Astartes Power Armour (Head 8, Arms 9, Body 9, Legs 8). Note the armour provides +20 to the warrior’s Strength (+2 SB, included) and increases its size to Hulking.

Weapons: Tainted Bolter with Inferno Bolts (110m; S/2/4; 2d10 E; Pen 5; Clip 30; Rld Full; Tearing, Warp Weapon), Armoured Fists (1d5+5 I; Primitive)

Equipment: 4 Bolter Magazines (loaded with Tzeentchian Inferno Bolts)

Threat Rating: Malleus Majoris

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Hehe, would this be pre- or post "Bolters with tearing and accurate weapons aimed get extra d10's"-errata?

The first "Tearing" shenanigans that showed me that something was wrong was when the assassin in the group became a Moritat reaper. Then out comes the errata and suddenly there are simply too many d10's rolling on the table for comfort.

Which would explain why the players in Shades of Twilight in your example suffered such difficulties (Spliner weapons are all tearing).

Tearing combined with Righteous Fury is what I think we should blame when it comes to anti-climactic boss fights. You might want to call me buzzkiller of the week now, but im seriously considering removing the possibilty for Rigtheous Fury with tearing weapons...

Varnias Tybalt said:

Hehe, would this be pre- or post "Bolters with tearing and accurate weapons aimed get extra d10's"-errata?

I'm a trend-setter in that regard: I've been playing Bolters with Tearing since August 2007; I even suggested it to Mike Mason when I met him at GenCon UK that year.

As I said, it's not that we don't get instances of Righteous Fury... it's just that they tend to turn up more against inconsequential foes rather than major ones. The odds don't change depending upon who you're facing, so it's pure chance that it's happened this way for my groups and another in your experiences.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Actually, with the "lone enemy" example, the odds do change. Or rather, the severity of the RF's change considerably.

I mean if the group of PC's are in a battle against a gang of inconsequential foes, then the individual RF's will most likely be distributed among that mob of mooks. No one's gonna notice if a mook gets killed by a freak RF when they're too busy shooting the other 30 or 40 mooks running around the premises.

But if all PC's are pitched against one lone enemy, then all of those freak RF's are gonna hit that enemy.

Granted, I can't really answer for the random rolls made in your campaigns of course (sometimes a player can roll like five to six consecutive 10's in a row, other time's he do the same hing with 1's, I've seen it happen), but statistically speaking and with the examples we've spoken of, the odds for multiple RF's, or rather the odds for an increase in severity of multiple RF's are increased in the example with just one enemy.

Like I said, no one's gonna notice the odd RF in a big fight between multiple PC's and NPC's. But when there's only one (albiet powerful) NPC and a bunch of PC's, then the PC's combined Righteous Fury results will inevitably further the risk of an anti-climactic combat.

My remedy of this, is to not only play the powerful enemy's abilities and attributes to their fullest, but also making good use of their intellect and strategic thinking. We all know that smart enemies are a heck of a lot scarier o go up against than the stupid cannon-fodder type that conveniently comes running towards you so you'll have an easy ime shooting them.

The fact that the SM/CSM/anyone in power armour is Hulking actually makes them easier to hit by +10% and thus also makes it easier to confirm RF. In some ways, this means that these big guys are actually more vulnerable to fire, especially if you have a weapon that can hurt them reliably (as discussed previously).

HappyDaze said:

All the more reason for them to not stand around like morons waiting to be shot. And all the more reason to be in melee where you're a more difficult target, where the size modifier does not play a part, and where their considerable strength and skill is of the greatest benefit to them. Shooting, particularly with heavy weaponry, is the largest vulnerability of a Space Marine, and one that gets worse and worse as range to target increases... there's a reason that the Space Marines frequently employ tools like Drop Pods to get them close to the enemy quickly. Close range limits the ability to use heavy weaponry and forces instead the use of lighter, easier-to-wield ranged weapons, and melee weapons, which tend not to have the same potency.

Technically, though, by the Dark Heresy rules, rolling to confirm RIghteous Fury does not include any of the modifiers from that attack's roll to hit (Rogue Trader resolves this, and the amount of additional damage, differently).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Just as a sidenote, I don't know about you but we're not gonna use Rogue Trader's way of handling Righteous Furies even while playing Rogue Trader. The potential damage that can be inflicted by RF is just plain ridiculous in that game.

We're most likely going to stick to the Dark Heresy way in my group.

Great work on those traitor Astartes NO-1. I especially like their fluff.

As for reasons why you might encounter a stray chaos marine in a rather epic story arc in DH, well they are many. Not the least of which is many of us have read the Eisenhorn trillogy. Yes, there was a chaos marine in the story. Yes, he was a twisted, horrible badass! Yes, several of Eisenhorn's team were deeply disturbed by the encounter, one having outright panicked and ran like a rabbit. And finally, yes, they eventually manage to take the big guy down further along in the story. The fallen Astartes was not just there to provide a big tough enemy... His presence was in and of itself a clue! Without spoiling the book for those reading it, the marine was present to oversee the operations of the overall baddie of the story, since several heretical and Chaotic organizations had time, money, agents and other more esoteric investments in the plot. Quite simply, the big tainted killing machine was there to make sure the villain did not cheat his Legion and Warp-patrons of their due.

Now from a RP perspective my team has a few acolytes that would face down a stray chaos marine or three. They are also smart enough to haul-ass from an 8 "man" squad of these things! I have a Scintillan Assassin who will gladly shoot at ANYTHING that his Inquisitor sends him after as well as a Cadian IG officer (a veteran of the famous Cadian 8th Kasrkin no less!) amongst the acolytes gracing my game. I promise you that neither of these two would so much as hesitate to bring down a traitor Astartes if at all possible! The Assassin is a danger-junkie and the nastier the fight, the happier he gets; in Shades on Twilight his response to a Dark Eldar pirate cutting part of his foot off was to shout "Oh yeah *****, my turn!" and promptly shot the offending pirate in the face a few times. The Cadian is a Cadian.... And a rather cunning example of one at that; the girl is downright SCARY sometimes! Keep in mind these are only 2 of the team... They currently have 7. One of the others is a huge beefy Guardsman who managed to (kinda) live through a Krak missile to the chest. Our Techpriest has recently had many impure thoughts after getting his hands (and dendrites) on a loaner powerfist on a recent mission. Even the support staff are dangerous!

So to summarize: traitor Astartes are big, scary terrible opponents, many of whom have a few millenia of combat experience and are not to be taken lightly. Even the many replacement marines that have been added as reinforcemnts to the traitor legions are VERY dangerous, and their ancient bretherin still consider them to be contemptable weaklings! No one should ever yawn during a scene where Astartes tread, traitor or loyal.

Equally of note: The Holy Inquisition is full of scary, mysterious people who think very little of doing terrible things to **** near ANYONE to accomplish their goals. They can trample on the "rights" and dignity of whatever crosses their path (Astartes chapters being the lone exception). They can demand immediate compliance and obediance on zero notice. They can condemn entire worlds to death while sipping tea. Inquisitors and their agents are some of the most brutal hardened killers you will ever have the misfortune of meeting, and that meeting is likely short and extremely painful. These are NOT nice people!

I see no issue here if the story is suitably epic in nature. One or a handful of chaos marines make for awesome and dramatic foes. A company of chaos marines makes for a good game.... of tabletop 40k!