One of things I liked about WFRP (previously) was the limitation on 'special' moves. Ie, strike mighty blow simply reflected your ability to hit your opponent harder than your strength would suggest.

But it seem RPGs have adopted the computer game convention of giving all your attacks special names, despite them not being special at all. WFRP seems to have followed this trend. Even worse is the idea of cool downs or X per day. If I can stab you in the back when behind you, I can do it EVERY TIME I am behind you, I don't simply forget where your kidneys are after I've done it 2 times during the day. When people sword fight at most they might comment on the school of swordmanship they are fighting with, not using 'super death slash' or sumsuch. An example is the fencing duel between Inigo Montoya and the Man in Black from The Princess Bride.

I don't see the attraction, nor the point of having super special kewl moves, expecially in a universe like WFRP where you aren't all powered by magic and therefore CAN'T do superspecial moves.

The naming convention aside (aesthetically I find their names all cheesy) the cooldown concept is what I loathe the most. It is an EXTREMELY gamist concept used to balance an ability that could have been balanced by not making it so over the top in the first place. I don't need balance on SMB because it only grants 1pt of extra damage. But as soon as you give the character 'Righteous Decapitation - if you hit with 2 or more successes the target instantly dies' type abilities suddenly it overbalances the game and you are mysteriously restricted in trying to decapitate people more than once a day. Apparently there is a limited quota on heads. That contrived balance for me breaks the versimilitude of the game for the sake of a cheap thrill 'yeah! I use "death strike to the nadges" on the orc warboss! I rock!'

There are ways to limit the use of special abilities that don't require such abstraction. For example, if a character wishes to strike harder/more vigourously then he loses fatigue everytime he does it. Afterall you can't keep it up all day. This not only limits a special ability but ties it back into the story so that it actually MAKES SENSE.

I just find it sad that having 'kewl powerz' is perceived as a must and that the only way designers can be bothered with balancing them is an extremely abstract 'you can't do it more than X times a day, or only after Y number of rounds.'

Cooldowns and powerz plus mook rules were the things that were going to make or break WFRP3 for me. Unfortunately it turned out like I thought it would.

Hellebore

Sounds like a valid criticism. I'm interested to know more as I don't really know much about this new version...can someone confirm or at least comment on Hellebore's post? (Or just explain a bit more about how it works.) Cheers.

heptat said:

Well, first let me say that his 'criticisms' are opinion. He's saying, "I don't like this way of doing things, it bugs me." Paraphrased, of course, but the point is, there's nothing wrong with what he said. He doesn't like it. That doesn't mean it's how things are, it just means he perceives things a certain way and that perception doesn't make him happy.

I would like to counter-point his observation on balance though. He stated that instead of a cool down, they should have balanced the powers so they aren't so powerful. I completely disagree with that. I'll take a hard hitting power that I can only use every so often over a wienie one that can be used every turn, all day - but that's just me. In fact, there already are low power actions that can be used every turn. There are also big hitters that are limited in use. There are also mechanics that can lower the amount of time those cool downs take to expire. So, with some effort and some sacrifice, you can get multiple big hits in - it's a trade off. You do what your play style dictates.

The system doesn't limit your choice, it gives you both, and that's what I want - the option. Don't like the 'big action cards that have lots of cool down'? Don't spend advancement points on them and stick with the basic actions (maybe pour your points into stats instead and make your character act more like a traditional RPG character). In that way, you never have to be bothered with 'cooldowns' (there are lots of cards with 0 cooldown), but other players can if they like. Don't like the names of the action cards? Say, "I poke him with my pointy thing" and be done with it.

So, I can't 'confirm' his post, because it's his opinion, but I can disagree with it and say I don't perceive it that way. In the end, it's all how you look at it and how you like to play.

Simply put, Hellebore, if you don't like the action cards, don't use them. If you don't like the cool down component alone, don't use it. Mooks are not required. If you'd rather have fatigue, add it, it wouldn't be hard. Just hit the exhaust counter with a sharpy, adjust, adjust, and be done with it.

Did you ever consider before you started ranting that some people like those things, so why shouldn't the game include them? If you don't like it, fix it. It'll take you about six hours, from whatever else you do. I know, like most gamers who come into my store you'll say I don't have time. But is that really true? How much TV do you watch? How many hours do you spend on the net? How much do you actually do versus the six hours it will take to mod the system to your liking.

Sure, you're argument is very simulationist. I agree it is a gamist mechanism, so? Don't use it and draft it over to what you prefer. I know the forge would explosive vomit over that concept, but they're wrong, mod a system you like is better than writing a system you like and much easier to do. There are so many pro's about this system and maybe the Forge would say it is a gamist horror, but those dice are the greatest narrativist tools ever created. If they want to throw down, fine, but they are very elitist since gamist = bad to them despite the fact so many gamers like a good gamist system and story. I'm not one of them, but I'll adapt warhammer to my needs and tra, la, la to the merry old land of oz.

You also have to consider, Things like special combat maneuvers demand additional products. Additional products means more sales. More sales the GAME CAN STILL BE MADE!! Otherwise, it's not profitable and gets canceled. I don't know why with Warhammer third no one is willing to modify it, but are so apt to house rule everything else unde the sun. I know again, the Forge would burn me at the stake for saying games should make money, but they're small, home press games don't have to reach such a broad market and would probably get eaten alive by it (i.e. ignored) by the market because they're so specialized.

Cool Down is also used to track spell duration in this which is a great mechanic.

I am happy you only had two complaints. Most people who come here and pop up a post to start yelling about what they hate normally bring five or six. Just in case you'd like to complain about these as well, I'll list them off for you:

1) Why can't I use my old dice when I haven't even read how these new ones work yet and expect fantasy flight games to give me a detailed description about why these changes happened.

2) I'll need five thousand miles of space for all those components, what gives?

3)It's a board game, not an rpg because fantasy flight makes board games and it includes one board game component so it must be a board game right?

4) The Price is to high, I feel perfectly fine paying a hundred bucks for my three dnd 3.5 cores, but a hundred bucks on a game that's not dnd, no, that's crazy?

5) Too many fiddly bits and why should I pay for them even though I only normally have one wizard in my group and am used to paying fourty or so for all those pages dedicated to spells even though one player will use about twelve of the listing in all those pages, but those fiddly bits I'm paying for are just not worth it here!

6) All the info 2e core isn't being automatically printed in this suppliment which is a relaunch of the game, but I have no patients to wait for later suppliments so give it to me now.

So feel free to use all of those. Or you could go to the Emperor's Decree section above, read all the wonderful reviews, read all the posts, read about all the great aspects of the game and realize the card and refresh rate stuff which you don't like (and I don't really care for) will need to be changed before you sit down and play. Or, you could do like I'm doing and play it a few times to see what it's like because the system has so many great components. It is a fantastic game, it really is and I started out hating it for many of the reasons listed above, that's why I took time to respond. Sorry if I came off a little snarky, I honestly didn't mean to, it's just the internet. I meant it all as a bit of good fun (not at your expense either). We've just seen so many of these tirades come out of left field and we keep answering them the same way, and most of the time, the OP don't change their opinions. There are some still on this board who refuse to buy it, but like to come buy just to rip on it. So honestly, it was just a bit of humor and my apologies if I offended you.

What Hellebore says is true...to a point, that these recharge and cool down and special action cards do exist. However, the dev's have said you could run the game without action cards, character's even have the option to take no cards at all and they supposedly balance (though I haven't played it that way so I can't confirm). The system is flexible and Jay challenges in the video for GM'S to hack his system. So hack away. If you want info, read the Emperor's decree section, read the designer diaries, read the Emperor's Decree weekend and open your mind to a new roleplaying experience. Because that's what it really is and a good one at that.

Oh, and an important point on the 'mooks'. There are none. There are no mooks in the bestiary. What does exist is rules to convert standard monsters into mooks, if you so desire, so you can have more epic conflicts without crushing your players into runny Warhammer bits.

Again, this is a matter of play style. Use the mook rules if you want more heroic games in which your players take on huge odds and have a (slim) chance. Use the normal monsters if you want that more personal 1v1 feel. In fact, the monster entries are very flexible and it's very easy to modify and customize them. It's very clear (to me) how to adjust them to the proper levels to challenge my party (more so or less so, whatever is called for).

Choices. I like choices.

That said, mooks are fricken dangerous! Roll up a first level character and bring him to the house. I will kick your butt with a mob of snotlings. Scary...

(I know this isn't a snotling, but look at him... LOOK AT HIM! He's awesome.)

[rant]
Why is it that anytime someone mentions a rule that they dont like in 3red ed, the rebuttle is always is "dont use it" or "you dont have to use it".

Especially in this case where Hellebore is not planing to use the system so he wont be using them. Its obvious and doesnt need to be mentioned.

Likewise the responses can be used in the same veign the other way, "if you wanted them, add them".

That said I'm all for showing your own view or take on the matter, if we dont share our opinions you never get to see different views. Also a few times there are things you may not have considered (or simply dont want too).
[/rant]

I dont personaly find that "...those dice are the greatest narrativist tools ever created..." , that I still leave that to the imagination and mind of the individual. For me picture dice are actually less intuative than numerical dice (I have used image based dice in other systems) because I have a very logical and technically slanted mindset. Could I use them, sure, but for me they will never be faster than calculating a few direct numbers.

While I do agree that the cool down aspect is a balance factor, which is generaly needed (to an extent) in RPGs. For the more Simulationist players this is nothing more than a simplification for the rationale of balancing the power that could have been done more realistically (from the game world sence), while for others I can see it being something thats easily ignored. Much like armour class in D&D, and as a simulationist style player it will be a detriment to the game itself. Likewise the fatigue/stress system could of worked for both kinds of players if incorperated inplace of the cooldown aspect.

It doesnt realy make it good or bad in of its own merits, though having it in a RPG that did tend to support a more simulationist nature is a big difference.

I also think the system will do well for experienced role-players but it may very well facilitate new commers missing the point of 'role-playing' and simply result in them treating it like a board game or MMORPG which they may be more familure with. A factor I would be unhappy to see, since I think there is alot of richness in RPGs that would be mised along with it.

Thanks for the added info on Mooks Nezzir, the factor that its in there does show that the designers intended the game to be more heroic or atleast have that option, only they themselves could say for certain which is the actual differention.

Conversly I hope the level comment was simply a slip (use of a common term) and not something added to the system.

On a side note: Batgob is shiney.

Loswaith said:

Does this disturb you? How does it make you feel? Describe in single words, only the good things that come in to your mind when you think about... Warhammer.

OK, on the price point - I wish people would STOP comparing it to the D&D price. Because the uncomfortable truth is that almost EVERY OTHER RPG can be run just off the corebook, including to a lesser extent the last edition of WFRP. And that gives a a lower buy-in price. Some examples: Shadowrun, Legend of the Five Rings, Mutants and Masterminds, Scion, World of Darkness Mortals games (though that one is then required for the other WoD games, so less there)

That is the contention, and it's a valid one. From what I've seen of the core set, the components/books etc look like a reasonable quality and quantity for the price. But the fact remains that because of the direction the design was taken it will cost more, not only for the core, but for every expansion that will need to come with extra cards etc., and that is going to deter casual buyers.

@ Hellebore:
Have you tried even WFRP3e yet? If not, you have absolutely no idea how anything really works or plays in-game.
1) Keep in mind, that NO, you cannot backstab every time you are behind someone. To backstab, your opponent has to be in a vulnerable enough position, and you have to have the time to line up the shot correctly, and get in close enough before he turns around, etc. Besides, with the abstract movement, how do you know if you are "behind" the enemy or not? I see part of the recharge is also waiting for the next appropriate opportunity to use the action, as well as time recovering from the previous use.

I don't see the attraction, nor the point of having super special kewl moves, expecially in a universe like WFRP where you aren't all powered by magic and therefore CAN'T do superspecial moves.

Just because they have some fun, evocative names, doesn't make them all over-powered super-kewl super-special moves. In fact, most of the actions could be considered relatively common.

It is an EXTREMELY gamist concept used to balance an ability that could have been balanced by not making it so over the top in the first place.

Most, if not all, the actions are not OTT. Look through them. I have. Troll-feller Strike and Double Strike are by far the two most damaging actions in the action deck, as far as I can tell (barring spells, since I haven't look through them closely).

But as soon as you give the character 'Righteous Decapitation - if you hit with 2 or more successes the target instantly dies' type abilities suddenly it overbalances the game and you are mysteriously restricted in trying to decapitate people more than once a day.

Rest easy, there are no such actions anywhere close to that powerful.

Cooldowns and powerz plus mook rules were the things that were going to make or break WFRP3 for me. Unfortunately it turned out like I thought it would.

Again, unless you've tried the game, this is purely speculation on your part. Many people have been skeptical about these, but as far as I know everyone who has tried the game hasn't found it nearly as bad as they believed (even if they didn't like it enough to play again). I suggest you find a person or store that has the game, and try playing it to actually see how the recharge and action cards work and how balanced they are.

@ phobiandarkmoon

OK, on the price point - I wish people would STOP comparing it to the D&D price. Because the uncomfortable truth is that almost EVERY OTHER RPG can be run just off the corebook, including to a lesser extent the last edition of WFRP. And that gives a a lower buy-in price. Some examples: Shadowrun, Legend of the Five Rings, Mutants and Masterminds, Scion, World of Darkness Mortals games (though that one is then required for the other WoD games, so less there)

D&D is the "big daddy" of RPGs, as well as the most known and most played RPG. Thus, it makes for a good and easy to understand comparison. So, actually, there is nothing wrong with comparing it to D&D. I don't know. There are an awful lot of expansions for a lot of the games you mentioned, which all add up to a lot of money. I do agree, I expect 3e will have a goodly number of expansions which will also add up. With the initial cost of the Core Set, they'll probably even add up to slightly more than a lot of other games. <shrug> I expect to buy expansions for my RPGs, it has always been this way. I've bought a bunch of v2 expansions in the past, and there's still a lot more that I haven't bought. Some of them quite expensive. So, I'm not sure why you think 3e is so much different than every other good-selling RPG.

dvang said:

Yes, I expect to buy expansions to games, because I want the extra rules and fluff for bits and pieces. What I'm talking about is the cost just to play the basic game.

The price comparision is being made to D&D having to buy three books which add up to roughly the same price. For people who just want to run a game with the basic core rules. My contention is that this is not typical of all RPGs, and thus it's a valid sticking point for many people who would want to try the system, but feel they can't invest the money for the core set.

It's not that much of a problem for me - if the system turns out to be worth it, I'll buy it regardless. But it IS a valid concern for those on the fence about this edition, and I wish people would stop trying to dismiss it with 'but D&D costs as much'. I don't play D&D and I don't care how much it costs

dvang said:

I live in Australia, the ass end of anything gaming related.

And as I said in the original post, I don't LIKE cooldowns. They could be the most balanced concept in the world but they cannot be justified unless you've got some really specialised gear - ie piloting a giant mecha with superheavy lasers that can only fire once every three rounds because it's energy has to recharge/cool down or whatever. There is no justification for preventing a character using a skill he picked up to stab someone, other than game balance.

Unfortunately I'm on the simulationist side of the middle (I don't like super realism, but I don't like superabstractism either). I am of the opinion that of all games RPGs should strive to be more realistic, not less. Cooldowns/X per day rules are not realistic. The rules should be there to aid in telling the story, not forcing the story to aid the game. It breaks the versimilitude when I have to come up with a reason why my character's special ability cannot be used for two more rounds/another day. It doesn't make story sense and an RPG is story more than game for me. Not even the TT Warhammer game or Mordheim uses cooldown rules.

Hellebore

Well I can understand the position of Hellbore although I dont share all of his points. IMO what we see here its the eternal struggle between simulationism (like Hellbore seem to prefer) and gamism (like the fans of 4e or Warhammer 3 prefer). There is not much common base between these 2 schools, because the individual percerption about the best way HOW TO PLAY a rpg is very different.

Only a few people are able to appreciate both ways to play.

Gamism? Or narrative play? Sorry, i can't agree with the 'gamism' tag as this relates to defining things into terms and abilities that can be used in a game, and everything we are discussing here is that. The difference really is more between Narrative of Simulation play in my mind, and i mean those both as positive terms - but unfortunatly often each others expense.

I used to want simulationism in my RPG's, but I've moved the other way now as I just don't feel it fits well in something that I want fast paced, and telling a story. No-one knows how many feet there are between themselves and 3 different other protagonists, just "out of harms way and, oops, he's close". I do play some other wargames that give me my simulationism fix, but one of the things that I really like about the look of WHFRPv3 is a move towards a more narrative gameplay experience.

As far as I know "narrativism" is not tapping cards and is not placing counters on cards in order to recharge. In fact its something totally different. Possibly you should update your knowledge about those things by reading some literature.

If you dont like it, vote with your money and dont buy it. There is still a lot of 2.0 stuff on the market.

I for one like the new direction. It makes GMing so much easier for me. I was on the brink of burnout, but the change in D&D 4 and now WHFRP 3 rejuvenates the whole RPG thing for me. Its new and fresh. And if i fall back to craving more realism i still have GURPS on my shelf .

@superklaus: AFAIK narrative play does not has anything to do with props. Is it forbidden to use props in narrativism? If i wanted to use blue counters to track mana and red to track health, would that be forbidden?

Condescending tone aside, Hellebore brings about some valid points for discussion.

I haven't read all the rules yet, but even with with games that I'm intimately familiar, I'll bend the RAW to make the game (yes, GAME) more fun for my players.

To me, Action "cool down" represents the fact that these actions take time to recover from, either from a tactics standpoint or physical limitations.

If, in the case of backstab, which has a huge cooldown time, if the rogue player goes out of his way to describe how he's maneuvering himself to get in position for another backstab, I'll give him a bonus in the form of reduced cool down. This is because I like the idea that my players are using tactics and making combat more interesting than simply rolling to hit constantly.

That's why I like these Action cards. My houserule (which may not even BE a houserule, for that matter) is that if my players have their characters perform actions or maneuvers that either logically or cinematically prepare them for a second attempt of that same action, I'll reduce the cool down period.

SIDE NOTE:

What irritates me about Hellebore's post above, or similar posts from other Forum members with similar points of view, is that they'll write intentionally condescending or inflammatory comments that insinuate that 3rd edition, along with it's fans, are all juvenile or immature ("super special kewl moves", "sake of a cheap thrill 'yeah! I use "death strike to the nadges" on the orc warboss! I rock!'", 'kewl powerz', "powerz").

And then, when the targets of their trolling predictably take offense and react to this cajoling, either they or another poster sharing their dislike for this edition will become defensive, complaining that any conflicting opinions of 3rd edition are always met with hostility.

Well duh.

I honestly think that they do this on purpose to elicit a reaction. That is the definition of Trolling. The internet is a crappier place because of that behavior.

And I can't help but scoff at the elitist RPG sneering derision of "gamist" concepts in these... uh... games.

THESE ARE ALL MAKE BELIEVE GAMES IN WHICH WE PRETEND TO BE MAGICAL ELVES AND DWARFS.

/SIDE NOTE

EDIT:

Possibly you should update your knowledge about those things by reading some literature.

Nice. More ad hominem attacks.

superklaus said:

Would you make the same point that if a simulation does not correctly simulate everything possible, that it isn't a simulation? (although hopefully without trying to be insulting as well)

Necrozius said:

A very important thing to remember.

It is your game change what you want to make it the way you want.

It seems to me that "Special moves" are designed to give players more to do./make combat/social encounters more "dynamic". Honestly I am a bit sketchy on them when I read names like "Troll-feller".The name does seem a bit MMO/CRPG in flavor. But to me that is nit picking.

I have not seen all the "Special moves", or know what the effects of them are. Sure some more then likely have silly names we will giggle at. But my group has done it's share of ripping on the names of skills and traits in previous editions.

My other misgiving is, that these special moves will become the players focus (Being printed on flashy cards,placed right in front of them) and ignore any other option.

On the other hand it is quite possible that these cards will encourage creative role playing (rather then stiffle it). I mean is spamming cards A,B & C worse then, say, "spamming" strike mighty blow,/dodge/ parry in combat, or Intimidate and charm in social encounters?

So, I will reserve judgement for when I have the game in hand, read it and have played it a few times. After that we will start talikng about possible house rules....

Parzival said:

I honestly fear that as well. But I'm hoping that once the players get used to them, along with all the other things to keep track of, that everything will become more intuitive. We'll see.

As for the names being corny or goofy: keep in mind that this setting is famous for characters with names like "Malus Darkblade" and "Volkmar the Grim".

If forgot the third item that I am a bit leery of, and that is the "cool down" timers. They do seem more then a bit gamist to me. I don't care for rules that say "no" for rules sake. I would much rather a logical rational behind it.

On the other hand, once again....they do prevent the player from insisting on trying and trying the same tactic over and over again. For instance the sneak attack/backstab/whatever card....lets be honest. You would have to be pretty **** stupid, to to turn your back/lose track of some one you caught attempting to stick a sharp piece of metal in yer back....So in an abstract way the 4 round cool down represents waiting for a 2nd opportunity, to attempt it.

Personally, I would just say "Look DUDE. They know yer there...they SAW YOU!", so no you can not try it again."

But again, until I actually know the rules, and see how they work, I can't say how I might futz w/them.

Parzival said:

By Jove! You got it! It was said in earlier threads that most combat in V2 had become repetitive (heck, even on the boards of V2 people were complaining that once they had 2 attacks, no one used manouver and/or all out attack), but no one wanted to acknowledge this. I think the main reason why people don't like the cards (of those that still don't like them of course) is because now they have a physical reminder that they use the same thing over and over.

Of course, spamming the same thing won't be the case here. I like the recharge time. This forces (from what I've read this is the only thing that "forces" the player to do anything) the player to use a different skill every other round, making things more interesting. Now you just use the strongest attack because "there's nothing in the rules that prevent it". Sure, people will look for the best "combo" or "rotation", but I'm sure a good GM will find something to mess up that rotation midway (not to mention, they can "mess" it up themselves by removing recharge counters). And besides? What's wrong with doing a Troll-Feller Strike as your opening move and finishing it with a Double Strike?

Bottom line is, I like the "special moves". They really give the player the chance of being able to act like the stars in movies (I was gonna say heroes, but then you'd think I meant heroic) and gives them the opportunity to do some crazy stuff. And for all the persons who say they already do that in V2, after all the modifiers you get for that little stunt, you still roll a Basic Attack. Now you have the chance it'll have a different result than just normal damage.

Hellebore said:

I think your opinion is valid, but while I was playing the game last weekend, the cool downs felt like more of a narrative thing than anything else. It forces you to do different stuff each turn during a fight. It makes each scene a little more cinematic and interesting. It prevents someone from doing a more specialized action over and over again. In your example earlier about the back-stab, I couldn't help but think just how cheesy it is for a character to say "I backstab" over and over. Do something different and more cinematic already! Sure, you'll minmax your damage to high heaven by doing the same thing over and over again. Sure cooldowns aren't realistic, but when you've got players who always do the cheesiest possible thing in every situation with no regard for what the scene actually looks like in peoples heads, I get bored really quickly.

Sometimes it's nice to have a mechanic to enforce 'coolness' on those who just can't seem to grasp that the important part of an RPG is what we imagine in our heads as we play.

I haven't played the game yet - mostly just following it here and elsewhere... but can't a player, if they really want to duplicate a maneuver, use a Fortune Point to speed up a cool down? Can they accept a fatigue or two to do the same?

I don't know the answer - I'm just curious if there's options in the RAW that provide for speeding up cooldowns for those that really need to get in some quick backstabs?

Jaysin1414 said:

They can burn fortune, but not fatigue.