I know there have been a lot of posts on this forum both for and against this edition of the game. I only came on the website a week or so ago to see what was happening to Dark Heresy and was rather surprised to see that Warhammer is being completely revamped. It wasn’t aware that there was much wrong with the old system and I don’t seem to be able to find a reason from an official source for the change of direction. If there is one and I’ve missed I would be grateful if someone can point it out to me. I have tried to trawl through the forums, but with so many posts and so little time it is difficult.

I thought I’d tell you about myself so that you know where I’m coming from. I’m 43 and I live on the South Coast of England. I have been gaming for almost 32 years. I have played and GM’d the various incarnations of D&D (and yes I do play 4th ed.), Traveller, Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, Pendragon and many other systems. I am not resistant to change and I think that change can be a good thing. However, such a radical departure for Warhammer came as a bit of a shock to me personally. I have a lot of the previous edition books and to my mind there is nothing wrong with the system as it is for running role playing games in the Old World.

To use a comparison with another huge RPG launch I have to use 4th ed. D&D. I have to say that I was initially sceptical about the launch of 4th ed. D&D and was one of those that thought ‘what are they doing to the game’ when rumours first started to circulate, but rather than **** it out of hand I decided to a) play it at UK Games Expo in May 2008 and b) get the first adventure, Keep on the Shadowfell (the scenario had a set of quick start rules) that retailed for about £17. I enjoyed playing the game at UK Games Expo immensely and was won over. I could visualise using my ranger’s powers and although I’m sure I didn’t play him to his full potential I got a real kick out of the game. With the initial adventure I reasoned that I could try the game with my friends and if they didn’t like it (after all they were the ones who were playing it), I would ditch it in favour of another system. I like the game as it keeps a lot of the same mechanics from previous editions, though had some nice new ideas and didn’t need some different dice as I had accumulated a load of polyhedral dice over the years. I have to say that I was not pleased with a lot of the things that Wizards promised , but have ultimately failed to deliver, specifically on the online interactive side. But for me what made it a go was that my players played it and enjoyed it too. We have been playing the game for about eighteen months now with only a brief break for a Call of Cthulhu scenario and a couple of new players for reasons other than they disliked the game. I have spent a lot of money on 4th ed. D&D, far in excess of the £66-£67 mark that WHFRP 3rd ed. would cost, but I didn’t have to do it all at once, and I have bought things as and when it suited me and my pocket. I have not bought into the various gimmicks/ play aids that they have bought out and have bought enough miniatures to depict the action for all concerned without having to buy vast quantities of boosters and to my mind they missed a trick by not producing a miniatures pack to go with each adventure.

I still remain very sceptical of this WHFRP 3rd. Firstly the price tag. I live in the UK and I have seen it for around the £66-£67 mark on the Gameslore and Leisure Games websites but there has not been enough in the various forums or the video to make me think that I really need to get this game. The video is slick, but it is a sales pitch after all. The pieces all look very well made and of a high quality, but remind me of somewhat of the big box board games from FFG that I already own, most specifically, Arkham Horror. Someone else has posted to say that the rule books on the video look thin and I have to agree. I don’t know if I really need a stance tracker or a party sheet or all the other gimmicky bits that they showed me in the video. Again they mentioned them, but to my mind it was very general. I think someone else suggested a video of a session of the game being played and that would be useful.

The bottom line is that my domestic and financial circumstances are such that I really can’t chuck that amount of money away on something that I and my players may play only once or twice. This game does seem to be a very all or nothing affair. To buy into the game I would need to buy the whole box. There are too many unanswered questions in my mind that make this a must have purchase. For instance I have six regular players (a luxury in this day and gaming age I know) and reading the various bits on the gaem says the box is for a GM and three players. Am I missing something or does this mean to play it with six players I need more dice or something else? If the latter is the case then it makes it an even more unattractive proposition financially. Also have the systems completely changed? For instance is character progression which I always enjoyed – is it the same, moving through the various basic and advanced careers or is it completely different?

If there is an independent review floating around or if there is somewhere in the South East of England where it is going to be demo’d then I’d love to know so I can play it firsthand I would be grateful if so I can better judge the game.

I like the board games that Fantasy Flight have made and own a number of them. I also like their RPGs in the form of Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader. I think they are well produced and have a lot of good components and are great and fun to play. I really like the Warhammer Old World setting.

It may be that the new edition of Warhammer is a fantastic role playing experience and may, as the video claims, allow you to create stories that the players will talk about for years, but the creators are asking me to make a very big leap of faith by altering the game so completely. I’m not condemning the game, nor am I welcoming it with open arms because I simply don’t have enough information to do either. But I am certainly not preparred to fork out money on a box and have it gather dust before going on Ebay in a few months time.

I await your comments.

Regards,

Paddy

I can certainly understand your concerns and it must really come as a shock to take in all the changes at once lol. I personally was not going to bother with the game as I am not a huge RPG fan (I dabble mostly) and having never played previous incarnations of WFRP. I am however a big Warhammer fan, so it got my attention. Still, I would mainly keep up with the updates just out of interest, with no real intention to buy.

After seeing some reviews and impressions of the game from this past weekend I started thinking that it sounded more and more like an RPG that I could actually get into. Plus, when I heard you could buy it from Amazon for about $63, which is about a 40% discount, I instantly put in my preorder. I agree that it was a risky move to place everything into one big box and slap a huge price tag on it, but if you shop around maybe you could find a similar deal. The price was definitely the hardest thing for me to get over.

As for your worries about the game itself, check out the impressions from the Emperor's Decree Event on this forum and I believe there are a few more impressions to be found a some other forums as well. Then you can decide for yourself if it sounds remotely like something you and your players would enjoy.

Dunno where in the South East you are, but last weekend i was having a thumb through a copy at the Games Shop in Aldershot.

I don't think they were running a demo, but were happy for me to read it through. I really like the look of it, but I'd have to play it to, to check that it promotes the roleplaying that I hope it does.

Guys,

Thanks for the comments. It is nice to have a constructive discussion. I live in Folkestone, Kent. I have trawled around the net and £67 seems to be about average. Amazon have it for £68. Orcs Nest in London haven't got it on pre-order. I may have to look at a few of the smaller shops, though in my experience it will be about the same price. It still has the feel of more of a board game, judging from the video to me. I would like to get a copy in my grubby paws first before passing judgement. My local games shop is in Canterbury and so I'll see if he gets a copy in stock that I can have a look at.

Regards,

Paddy

I will check out the Emperors decree stuff it may give me more of an idea. Thanks once again.

Definitely check out the Emperor's Decree sub-board of this section. There are quite a few detailed reviews of the demos played this weekend.

My two cents is that it is that the changes are intuitive and enjoyable (especially the die mechanic). I also enjoyed the stance system quite a bit. As for the "bits and bobs" that seem to give people initial pause...I came away from the demo last weekend thinking it's still very much Warhammer Fantasy ROLEPLAYING with different dice and various "stuff" that keeps track of game info rather than pencils, papers and a stack of books on the table.

Fabs said:

Where on earth did they get a copy from. The UK distributor esdevium doesn't seem to have it yet!!

I'm just jealous.

I've played the first and second editions. I want to get my hands on a third edition copy so I can make my own mind up about the game. It's great to see what other peoples thoughts about the new edition is, but that's only second hand information. I generally rely on my own experiance before making judgement.

Duran Elderbar said:

I completely agree. It is better to have a look firsthand rather than **** something out of hand.

The Games shop in Aldershot is part of esdevium games (or at least used to be)

so its a display copy from them.

i cant wait for this to be released i have it preordered already (wish i had a solid street date)

it looks to be the perfect game for my group as they are an argumentitve bunch that struggle to work as a team this could really pull the group together.

Yeah, originally Esdevium was a games shop in Aldershot, but when they moved to become solely a distributor (almost as the 'anti-GW' at the time, I believe - GW had been the biggest distributor, but were changing to GW only games) the shop changed hands, and has again recently. But I think they still benefit from a 'special relationship'

Deadline247 said:

Are there still the character classes and the progression through them as in the previous editions?

paddyb812 said:

There are Careers, just like in previous editions, but there are fewer of them.

However, many of them are more general, and encompass several concepts that were seen in other careers in earlier editions.

Also, career development is a bit more flexible- there is a greater variety of choice in how you spend your experience.

paddyb812 said:

Yes...but it doesn't work 100% the same.

I would agree that you should check out the Emporer's Decree section and read through some of the reviews. There are even a few with some pictures.

I'll mention a few points to consider:

Price:
The price is high for a single product. However, do consider the fact that it is a lot of stuff and is everything needed for GM+3 players. So, in the vein of D&D, it is the DMG+PHB+MM+UA+dice. The cost is actually cheaper when stacked up like that. Again, I agree that it is a lot to spend on one product (especially for one person), but be aware that it is worth (I'm talking physical stuff) what you get.

Components:
The components are what you would expect from FFG. The cards and cardboard pieces are the same high quality as Arkham Horror. So, it's no surprise the pieces remind you of Arkham Horror. The rulebooks are not really as thin as they might seem, and are quite sturdy for not being hard-covers. They are sturdier and better quality than my copy of WFRPv1, for example. I'll try to take a couple photos of the rulebooks. Two of them are around 100 pages each, and two are around 50 pages each. Somewhat slim, but remember that all the actions, talents, and spells are all on cards ... and thus that's all material that normally would be in the books that doesn't have to be. We never found the stance tracker or party sheet to be a problem or fiddly from the two games I've run. There are ways you can use the mechanics without the pieces (use paper and pencil, for example).

Number of players:
This has been discussed before. The Core Set is targeted for GM+3 players, but you can play with more. For example, I ran the demo with 4 players one session. The "issue" with additional players is purely a matter of the number of physical components available. If players are willing to share, or handle it like any other RPG and write stuff down with pen and paper, then you can easily play with more than 3. There are only 3 copies of the basic action cards (like Mele Strike, Parry, Dodge, etc). There are only enough pieces (I think) for 5 stance meters. There are only 1 copy of each of the other talent and action cards, so if two players have the same action/talent (like if you have 2 trollslayers) they'll need to share those cards or else write the information down (or make copies). Yes, this could be a bit of a hassle ... but only because the cards make it easier than other RPGs. In other RPGs players have to write their talents down on their character sheet, so it's actually no worse than any other RPG. You might also feel there aren't enough dice, depending on how your group plays.

Character progression:
It is similar to v2. There are fewer careers in 3e than v2, but they are a bit broader in scope. I don't find it a big deal, since several of the careers in v2 were never played. Yes (gasp) there will be expansions with more careers. I know it's another thing to buy, but keep in mind this also means 3e will probably have *more* careers than v2 in a short time. Plus, those additions are easier to integrate into the rest of the game. Anyway, advancement does have a few differences, primarly giving the player more options on what to spend XP on.

Board game:
When I first saw the images I thought it was a boardgame. After running it twice, I can definitely say it isn't a boardgame. The pieces are there to help you quickly and easily keep track of conditions and effects, both of yourself and your fellow players. They don't, however, stop or hinder you from roleplaying. In fact, many things, like the action cards and the dice, etc, help encourage players to roleplay.

I hope this helps.

paddyb812 said:

Actually, I'm really curious about this too. I read all the Designer Diaries, watched all the info videos, and nowhere have I been able to find a reason given by FFG for why they felt like it was time for a new edition. I'm always curious about game design, and would love to know how they came to the conclusion that it was time for a new edition, and why they decided to go in such a different direction with the new system. Does anyone know if Jay addressed this anywhere?

I just assumed that they wanted to try something new.

I mean, seriously, WFRP has used the percentile system for, like, 20 years. That system is not as bad as THAC0 or anything, mind you, but a fresh perspective is... well, refreshing.

paddyb812 said:

Go to Amazon USA, they have it for 67$, which should be, even with added shipping, cheaper then the UK Amazon.

OsirisDawn said:

You are possibly forgetting the extra VAT charges on boxes vs those on books...

Paddy -

I fully appreciate where you are coming from. I am a month from turning 41, and first got into RPG's when Jimmy Carter was the US President. I was a Newb unwittingly caught smack in the middle of the "Original" D&D vs Basic D&D Wars (the fact that I put the word Original in quotes probably still raises the hackles on two or three people out there). I still remember clearly buying the Player's Handbook, as well as the ride home in the dark holding the book open to the light of car headlights as they'd whip by.

The first boardgame I bought with my own money was The Russian Campaign , by Avalon Hill. The game covered the entire East Front Campaign of WWII and included over 200 pieces, and among other minutia tracked what gauge a given length of rail line was so you could determine if Germans, or Russians could run their trains on them. I was not yet ten.

I got into Gamma World, Traveler, and messed around with AD&D but gave it up because it wasn't gritty or 'real' enough for my tastes. I stuck with games with meat - like Star Fleet Battles, or anything with a rule book thick enough to defend myself with.

Then one day a friend (S. Stoneman, from whose name the term "A Stoneman Campaign" would become a fixture of my gaming groups lexicon) brought in a copy of the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay book and talked a couple of us into making characters. Just to show us how combat worked, he had us fight a Chaos Champion on a flying steed of some kind.

It was an utter massacre.

And I was hooked.

Just over twenty-two years of on and off campaigning have followed. Sometime player, more often than not GM, I've played and ran the Good (The Enemy Within), the Bad (Doomstones), and the Ugly (Paths of the Damned followed by a flight to the Border Princes, the conquest of a princedom, and a blood curdling decent into the lair of the Liche Lord).

I saw FFG taking control of WFRP as a Sigmar-send. And then I saw what they were doing with my game I realised that what I thought was a sign from Sigmar was actually a warning scream from the mouth of Tzeentch.

Nothing I saw changed my mind. Every part of the 5-part YouTube video brought me closer to tears than the one before (No Halflings!! Have you ever even PLAYED the game?!?!?). The really slick sales pitch they put out made me as angry as a follower of Nurgle who can't develop a simple skin rash. The designer diaries left me bewildered.

Why were they doing this? To make money, of course. WFRP was perilously close to being sucked into a Vorpal Tunnel of Money, and unlike Ghal Maraz, it would never return. There was nothing wrong with 2nd Edition (okay, encumberance and the economy didn't work, but they did fix magic compared to 1st Edition), and everything thing I saw about the components screamed Money Pit !

In total misery I told my FLGS about the Emperor's Decree, and got him to sign up. I offered to run it one of the sessions. After all, it was WFRP, and I couldn't help but hope those Evil SOB's hadn't destroyed EVERYTHING I loved (note to Bald Guy in that August video - pain. . . Pain. . . PAIN!).

Got access to the rules, cards, and about a thousand bits of stuff - come on dudes, one pencil and a piece of paper turns into 13 zip-lock baggies of stuff - seriously? Had a couple or five phone rants with some old friends. Read the rules.

And I was hooked.

I put up a post in the Emperor's Decree forum explaining why, so I won't go into all the details here. But the system WORKS. It is not WFRP lite, it is not Advanced Warhammer Quest, it is not Descent 2. It is Warhammer .

For the record, it is a money sink. Doubt it? How about this: they tell you in the rules that you need to use a new character sheet for every career (which come in pads of 25). Still not convinced? They spend FOUR paragraphs in a mult-color, high quality rule book telling you WHY you need to use a new character sheet with every career.

Which is okay with me. No, I'm not made of money. But if buying into this money sink means a company will finally have the financial impetus to fully support WFRP the way I want it supported, and that keeps it from moving into another dark age before the SIXTH publisher picks up the game, then so be it.

So go ahead, bald guy. Go ahead the whole lot of you.

Bleed me dry.

...We have to use a new character sheet EVERY career?

Hmm... Color photocopies or pdf printouts for me.

If you hadn't seen it, check the final section of:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm=93&esem=4

morskittar said:

**** them! Do I have nothing left to be angry at them over?

morskittar said:

Huzzah! Well then. Thank you.

Sorry for the derail.

Well I've had a look at the posts on from the Emperor's Decree weekend and to be honest the overall impression I got was very postive and there were numerous objective reviews, including some from those who were, like me were skeptical of the new game. There have been demos going on in the UK this weekend, but none near to me (and I've been working too) so I haven't the opportunity to get my hands on a set before it is released here. The pictures and posts seem to indicate that the game has load of top class components. I know that this game will polarise opinion much as D&D 4th edition did last year and I think that it sounds interesting enough to give it a go. I also had a look on the Strike to Stun website and found postive posts there, but there was one that said that the game was available in the UK on www.play.com for £54.99 with free delivery. So the long and the short of it is that I've bitten the bullet and it's on pre-order for me.

Not sure who I'll play it with though. It may be that I play it with my current group as a different fantasy experience to the D&D 4th ed we are playing at the moment or I'm also thinking of starting a weekly afternoon long board/ RPG session in my local area and may wheel it out there to perhaps get some different players interested. I'll have to see when it arrives.

I am grateful for all the comments that people have posted in response to my queries. They have helped me to make a much more informed decision about the game.

Regards,

Paddy

I don't like the mini-character sheets in the game at all. My wife was sitting down to create a character and immediately scoffed at the amount of space she was expected to write in. So, trying the game out beyond the pre-generated characters has been delayed while I work on a larger character sheet for the game. One that's not for people with hands the size of smurfs