Personally, fate is one of the main reasons my girlfriend and I are actually going to pick up the game. I'm really glad they added one more thing to think about while running around the board. I'm not looking for a deep eurogame, but after my first play of the 4th edition, I felt like it needed a little more in the ways of decision making. Fate also gives a little more variety to the characters, making each one even more unique

Another aspect of fate that really peaks my interest is the black side. I can not wait to see what that really entails, there is even more to fate than what we already know. Frankly I am completely suprised by the strong resentment towards this addition. Would love to read a session report or two of this new version and see how much of an impact fate really has.

Fate will turn out fine. Consider 5 years down the road when there are many expansions to the game. Think about how many rolls one will make in a game with all of these expansions...getting 2-5 extra rolls will NOT be a game changer but certainly could at least give someone a chance to experience a game ruining loss.

At first hearing about the Fate rule I was not feeling it at all. With all the gameboard and card changes that will be made I'm still not feeling it. But I will buy the game anyways because I would like to play the most current version of the game including expansions. At first I was only going to buy the upgrade pack for the BI edition of the game but the whole fact of the matter is that FFG fully intends to apply the fate rule to every aspect of the game, and further down the line I want to keep confusion out of my Talisman games with mix and match gameboard and cards. I still think that rerolling dies isnt going to change the game the way that FFG intends it to. I have seen players roll horribly all night and extra rolls just don't help they will roll three and under casue they have the wrong kind of juju. I can however see it playing around with a lot of the kick in the pants monents in the game, losing a point here and there, turning to a toad, choosing between fighting a dragon at game start or going to the graveyard and losing a life. That is just how the game was played. I'm sure all of us will house rule fate out or play with it and deal. It's nothing to cry over. Now purchasing a new edition of a game and a couple of months down the line having to purchase it again because even with the "upgrade" pack you still don't get everything you need to fully convert your game, that's worth crying over. BI messed up in the first place by printing such a mistake ridden game, FFG is kind of putting salt in the BI 4th edition owners wounds by changing rules that will effect the game universally leaving buying the game again the only choice for those who really want to be set up properly for expansions down the line.

Gorthuar said:

Thanks... that's just wording I was wondering about and should have looked up myself.

The Talismangler would be rolling in his grave over this "fate". Only the Talismangler should control player's fate.

But seriously, I think the biggest downside will be fewer toads. Then again, think of the poor shlup who rolls the second "1" at the Enchantress (or witch or whatever). THAT will be a toad to remember! Otherwise, I think it will be interesting how it all plays out and to see how FFG incorporates the concept in the future expansions.

Well we gave it a playtest, and it is very powerful.

(NOTE: I am heavily restraining on writing essays of the games here)

If you have a lot of fate (we played dwarf, troll & warrior for first game without new character stats, just the fate amounts SubElement posted), like the dwarf you own the board. I must admit that luck went the dwarf's way (was trying to get go evil at the mystic, but in the end picked up mesphito), which really allowed him to own the board. Constant visting of the enchantress supplied him with a healthy supply of strength, craft and spells to keep the firepower going. Keeping a couple of fate points in hand the strategy was graveyard->Enchantress to beef up. Even though the warrior killed him in combat on a couple of occasions the dwarf easily won.

Having 1 fate point didn't really make too much difference for the Troll and the warrior, but was consumed in combat rolls for the troll.

Added two house rules: If you turn into a toad fate doesn't apply (eg if you roll a 1 your a toad, you cannot use fate), and you cannot use fate in the inner region (we like to see players get stuck at dice with death and wanted all challenges to still have merit and not get 'fated' away).

Thinking of adding a third that you re-roll ALL dice as the it seemed more advantegous at the Temple to hold one dice and roll the other. After some discussion, we thought we would leave it for the moment.

We played a second game with the druid, warrior and troll again (were going to play wizard but it was getting late), and it was a lot more balanced. In fact it was a ripper of a game with the Druid just falling short of reaching the crown to challenge the warrior.

I wouldn't say we were fans of the rule overall, or it adds any new dimension to the game at this stage, but I am assume it will play its part in "The Raper"

RiCHiE said:

That does sound a bit overpowered.

RiCHiE said:

I don't like the sound of THAT expansion.

RiCHiE said:

Thanks for the input, though after some discussions off board with two other players (one who also does some game design), what you presented concerning the Dwarf and Troll was exactly what we came up - in theory and then in play. We chose those same two characters in one game as examples of Fate extremes.

We don't (yet) have a revised edition or an upgrade to my standard 4th, but we faked in Fate with details acquired from FFG online articles and Fate stats reported on the forums. A flawed approach perhaps, but it was all we could do while we wait. The Dwarf pretty much walked over other characters (without a Runesword), though I'm not sure how much was do to Fate. The dwarf was able to do more re-rolling early on than most other characters played. There was advantage in this that gave the dwarf an early lead on beefing up.

As to Fate providing a sense of control versus the game's randomness, this was limited. It is still about mechanics, and for a board game, that's not necessarily negative. Overall, the only thing Fate really accomplished (besides some early signs of imbalance between characters) was a minor speed up of initial game play - for some characters. Such were kept from being easily trounced by powerful Enemies drawn early from the Adventure deck. A few times such nasty surprises were defeated on a re-roll (or a draw occured), 50% of the time by the Dwarf. The Dwarf and Troll spent less time running to get new lives (for the Troll it was his starting Lives that did this). In one game, the Dwarf whacked a Dragon on his fifth turn (with a re-roll) and bumped a Strength point instantly. And the Troll got his butt kicked by a Ghost (C 4) after having used up its one Fate point.

Even the speed factor in characters taking first steps toward beefing up wasn't much of a pay-off and not necessarily a desired one. People have differing opinions and legitimate arguments as to whether the game should be easier or remain a risky challange at the start. Late in the games, it seemed like Fate re-rolls were hardly ever used (or needed). By then, the Dwarf's early lead was maintained and hard to catch for others.

More play is needed, of course, but overall, Fate remains a mixed bag. If there are other plans for it, some of those should have been (should be) implemented in the revised editon or the upgrade to see a few possibilities. My original concern and skepticism over Fate remains and begins to solidify.

Sometimes the smalest changes has the most impact.

A very easy but sublte change to fate, will nerf it significantly.

Using fate: Roll 2 dices and keep one roll.

This rule/wording change will still fullfill fates purpose, helping you from death in ealy game.give you more controll. But in cases wher you can become a toad on a roll of 1 on a 1D6, it wont be such easy decision to use fate.

What do people think? Do fate need an erata?

The rules would then be:

FATE

Fate is a measure of a character’s luck and fortune.

Before any die roll, a player may pay one fate token

(returning it to the stockpile) to roll 2 dices and keep 1

dice roll (usually the most favaroble) under the following

circumstances:

1. Rolling a die for his character’s movement.
2. Rolling a die to determine his character’s attack roll.
3. Rolling a die due to the instructions on a card or board space.

I also playtested the new fate rule... broken. All in all I experienced the same results as mentioned previously from JCHendee & RiCHiE. You can also get a massive fate boost by getting and additional 2 fate at the temple. As you now have a 75% of goodies from the enchantress with fate, and only an 1 in 36 chance of becoming a toad, it offers a lot of boons. Veing able to re-roll one dice (holding the best one) is better than having to re-roll both!

The only positives I could find out of it was it that it did seem fair for movement rolls, and that it was also good for re-rolling for the command spell - that really speeds the finishing game off.

I think that Bajan's suggestion is a good one: its nice and simple, and does completley nerf it. I would use it when rolling for the command spell over and over and receive some benefit from it, and in movement when the fountain and stream comes up. Richies suggestions of disallowing it to be a toad is not enough I think.

You guys are aware that all playtesting in the world won't do until we get to see how exactly the revised edition works? I mean, the only reliable characters to do it with are the Prophetess, the Druid and the Troll, since they're provided here: http://new.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=243 Even then, revised Adventure and Spell cards cannot be taken into consideration until someone's upgrade pack and/or revised edition actually arrives...

I thank you for your time

Lord Gorthuar de Veris

Cult of Nagash

Hey Gorthuar,

Yeah without fully implementing the changes it would work a bit differently, but I do remember Elliot saying that there were no changes to the Adventure or Spell cards. So if you use the newly updated cards from FFG below, the translations from a German version of the game and the space updates at this link HERE , you should be able to get a rather fair representation.

Wizard

Strength: 2 Craft: 5 Fate: 3 Lives: 4
Alignment: Evil Start: Graveyard/Cemetery

• You begin the game with 2 spells.
• You always have at least one spell.
  
• You may choose to attack with Psychic Combat when attacking but not attacked by.
  

Assassin

Strength: 3 Craft: 3 Fate: 3 Lives: 4
Alignment: Evil Start: City

• If you attack another player or creature then you may assassinate.
• You may not do this if you are attacked.
  
• The opponent may not roll to add to their Strength.
  
• If you win you must take a life, you cannot take an object or gold.
  
• You may not assassinate on the crown of command.
  

Ghoul

Stength: 2 Craft: 4 Fate: 4 Lives: 4
Alignment: Evil Start: Graveyard/Cemetery

• You may choose to attack with Psychic Combat when attacking but not attacked by.
• If you defeat another player in Psychic Combat and take a life, you may add it to your own lives.
  
• If you defeat an enemy in combat, you may raise them from the dead and keep them as a follower instead of getting Experience/Trophy points.
  
• You may add the strength of one raised follower in combat, afterwards you must discard the follower.
  
• You can only use one raised follower per combat.
  

Elf

Stength: 3 Craft: 4 Fate: 3 Lives: 4
Alignment: Good Start: Forest

• You do not need to roll in the Forest but if you do you must accept the result.
• You may evade creatures and other players in the Woods.
  
• When you are in the Woods, you may telport to any other Woods space in the same region as your next turn.
  

Thief

Strength: 3 Craft: 3 Fate: 2 Lives: 4
Alignment: Neutral Start: City

• If you land on the same space as another player, you may steal a gold or an object from them.
• If you encounter the Market, Market Day or the Village, you may take one object.
  

Monk

Strength: 2 Craft: 3 Fate: 4 Lives: 4
Alignment: Good Start: Village

• Your faith allows you to add your Craft to your Strength in combat.
• When praying you may add 1 to the result.
  
• You may not use any weapons or armour in combat
  

Dwarf

Strength: 3 Craft: 3 Fate: 5 Lives: 5
Alignment: Neutral Start: Crags

• You need not roll in the Crags but if you do you must accept the result.
• You may evade creatures and players in the hills.
  
• When rolling in the Cave, you may add 1 to the result.
  
• Only roll one dice when trying to open the Portal of Power by Craft.
  
• In the mines, you only use 2 dice.
  
• You are not effected by the maze.
  

Warrior

Strength: 4 Craft: 2 Fate: 1 Lives: 5
Alignment: Neutral Start: Tavern

• You may roll two dice in combat and choose the higher result.
• You may use two weapons at the same time .
  

Minstrel

Strength: 2 Craft: 4 Fate: 5 Lives: 4
Alignment: Good Start: Tavern

• Animals and Dragons will not attack you but you may choose to attack them.
• If you do not attack an animal, you may try to Charm it.
  
• Roll one die and if it is higher than their strength, they will become your follower and add their strength to yours in combat.
  
• You may only use one charmed animal per combat.
  
• You may take the Maiden or Princess from another player in you land on the same space.

Thanks to Bludgeon and BatherFodder from the old forums for these translations, and I warn that they are a little rough and subject to interpretation. Although all the translated Abilities seem to be identical to the previous BI Errata Fixed versions, so that should be pretty much perfect, taking into account only for the changed, Strength, Craft, Fate and Lives if any.

If anyone wants to give them a try, it would be nice to see!

Thanks,

Sub

We didn't play with the new character descriptions, but with new location descriptionsand fate points...

Althought there are some differences, I don;t think it would have changed the game much, ecept made the druid even more powerful!

With a fate of 4 plus the ability to get full amount of spells in a woods space and being able to be evil, the druid looks a lot more powerful!

Thanks for the postings, SubElement

You're most welcome!

I agree though, that new Druid ability is pretty darn hot!

SubElement said:

Cool, didn't know that. The upgrade pack *does* contain quite a lot of new cards, but I guess they're just reprinted to correct errors rather then apply changes.

So, in essence, FFG has provided all the means to play updated Talisman without even buying the upgrade pack? Of course it won't be as aestethically pleasing as with the pack, but I still find it a bizzare practice. Won't the owners of BI's edition just use the freebies en masse, instead of upgrading?

Where did the Germans get the new character rules, btw?

SubElement said:

If I manage to force it upon my friends in the near future, you'll sure hear about it

Anyway, from the looks of it, Fate indeed needs a nerf. Like reducing the amount certain over-the-top characters get... Will try RAW first, but I'll probably end up reducing everyone's (except for the Troll and the Warrior, and *maybe* the Prophetess and the Thief) Fate by 1.

I thank you for your time

Lord Gorthuar de Veris

Cult of Nagash

Gorthuar said:

Don't quote me, but I do remember him saying something of the sort, obviously excluding the many error corrections and possibly rewording the cards would have recieved.

Also, yes, I guess technically they have provided it all? It's up to you I suppose if you want to take advantage of that, but i'm sure most would rather AT LEAST get the upgrade pack.

Having played Talisman since the 2nd edition, I have to say that I am not excited about the Fate rules. I agree with the others who state that it eliminates too much risk. The element of danger scales down as you progress through the game since, by the time you can even make it past the Portal of Power, Pit Fiends and Werewolves are no real challenge at all ( I really miss the Dragon King and Demon Lord in newer additions). The only things that can even slow a character down in the Inner Region are the Mines, Crypts and Dicing With Death. The Fate rule eliminates even these modest challenges.

SubElement said:

Just did.

SubElement said:

Don't forget the new look cards that will be compatable with the future expansions etc, it is cheaper spending the $30 AU on the upgrad pack rather than doing a scan and print of the old BI cards.

Gorthuar said:

No kidding.

Not to mention that it's been made extremely clear by the design team that fate will play an increased role in the Reaper expansion, which no one has even seen yet. Those fate tokens are two-sided for a reason, guys; read the articles.

What a disappointing thread ... so much angst over a much-needed change to a stale 25-year-old game design. Also an unwelcome reminder that Talisman the game is a lot of fun, while many Talisman players are professional whiners.

Final point: FFG has a long history of acquiring new properties and re-releasing them, and those games always include additions and alterations ... see Fury of Dracula, Arkham Horror, Britannia, Cosmic Encounter, etc. for examples. Among the very good reasons for doing so is the effort to introduce totally new players to the game. Talisman is not just being re-released for you .

Don't forget that those translations from the German version may not be strictly accurate seeing as they've been translated from English to German and back into English. There are some that are definitely not quite right....

TheDukester said:

Man, I couldn't have said it better!

I would expect the level of pessimism on this thread from my jaded gaming group but not from genuineTalisman fans. Isn't the point of releasing a new edition to make improvements? I'm glad that FF made some effort instead of reprintig the same game that I bought 20 years ago like black industry did.

It seems like this is turning into a "Old Fan base" vs "New Fan base".

Fate is new. But, it wrecks what the Older Fan's enjoy about the game.

For my two cents. It does take away the whole "Sucked in" factor out of the game. which I enjoy. It also adds more rules to a game that takes a long time to master.

I agree change is good. The fate idea is Ok at best. It would be made better if you couldn't easily replace fate. once your out, that's it (or pretty hard to get some more).

As for the dark and light side of the token. We can only wait, but I hope it makes Fate a better thing for the game, not worst again.

Carrion Prince said:

Genuine Talisman fans are one's who've been playing the game for twenty years, or on and off, or for the first time, and see it as worth talking about in seriousness. The forum is the place to express and discuss all points of value on all issues in openness. It is not the place for making judgements on who is acceptable by however long they've played or what edition of the game. Improvements are only improvements if seen so by the individual. Bad mouthing people isn't going to reason them to change their opinion... or more importantly a viewpoint (something reasoned or otherwise supported).

As exemplied in discussion, few have found issues of improvement are simple or black and white. We will continue debate Fate's value, and we will determine individually if we consider something an improvement, or not, or something in-between. Though I will not speak for others, debating the value of the people involved does not interest me. I'm interested in hearing reasoned perspectives from old or new fans ... all enthusiasts who come here to do the same.

Fingers crossed that my upgrade might just arrive before the projected Dec. 23rd. I will definitely be interested to see if other Fate adjustments to the game alter, improve, or worsen its impact so far explored. Certain characters by the odds are showing marked advantage over others. That's not balanced; that's a tilt in game mechanics. Since Fate was intended in part to give players a bit of control versus being at the mercy of mechanics (of which randomness is only one aspect), I see it as failing so far... or that other successes it shows may still have a price.

I just got the new version, and I think it's ironic that the Prophetess has a comparitively low starting Fate of 2. Perhaps her discard ability plus a high Fate value would have made her too powerful.

They have also changed the bandits event... now he only takes your gold.

It looks like the theme of this edition is to keep negative effects to a minimum, which for me is really the enjoyment of Talisman. Anyway we'll see...